Traditional TKD

Is there a specific reason that TKD is focused more on kicks? Of all the martial arts techniques I think high kicks are actually the most difficult to master correctly for a lot of people. Effective certainly when done properly but I was wondering why TKD has more emphasis on kicks than other styles. Was it like that originally or has it evolved over the years or even relatively recently?
 
Is there a specific reason that TKD is focused more on kicks? Of all the martial arts techniques I think high kicks are actually the most difficult to master correctly for a lot of people. Effective certainly when done properly but I was wondering why TKD has more emphasis on kicks than other styles. Was it like that originally or has it evolved over the years or even relatively recently?
In terms of the curriculum, taekwondo actually has a greater number of hand techniques than kicking techniques.

Most schools focus on kicks because, as you say, high kicks are more difficult to train and because it is the focus of WTF sport taekwondo.

Outside of the sport, however, the focus really is more evenly divided between hand and foot techniques.

Daniel
 
Mike,
First, I'd like to say that knowing what spurred this thread, I appreciate your taking the time to better understand what you claim to know little about. Unfortunately, given the circumstances of what has brought our art into the world spotlight, so many misconceptions have to be expected.

Second, I'd like to say that what I'm describing below identifies the training as done by my school, the schools I was trained in and affiliated with. Other schools and affiliations will vary.

I am certified by the Kukkiwon and teach primarily what you refer to as "traditional" Taekwondo. While we do recognize a real value in sparring, it is by no means an all inclusive representation of what we do and teach.

Though Taekwondo is seen primarily as a kicking art, We work as much with hands as we do with feet and even incorporate knees and elbows. While linear striking is our apparent trademark, I can assure you balance and leverage are as much a part of our movement as any art. We teach how to identify anatomical weak points, specific strike points, with emphasis on muscle seams and most importantly, body language. Every one of my students even knows how to take an attackers eyes out (though the intestinal fortitude to actually do it is an altogethjer different topic). The differnce in strikes that will cause external damage as opposed to internal damage, techniques that will subdue or debilitate and each practitioner understanding (and working within) their own physical and mental constraints and limitations.

One of the biggest differences are students at black belt level. Many arts award a black belt when a student has mastered their art or demonstarted a thorough knowledge of their art's techniques and how to implement them. We teach a slightly different philosophy. A student reaches black belt level by demonstrating an acceptable level of proficiency of basic hand and foot techniques. Being a black belt means you have the basic tools required to begin your training. Does that mean you're incapable of defending yourself before then or your techniques are ineffective? Of course not. Techniques to defend yourself begin on day one. Students ability to effectively execute them depend on the student, much as any other art. My own experience though, has confirmed a common observation that most Taekwondo techniques are more difficult to learn than other arts, but they're worth the effort.

Most uncommonly known is our practice of joint manipulation, very similar to Hapkido. Though what we practice does not exactly resemble what you see in say, the UFC, the principle of technique is the same and therefore, the result. Clean joint locks are very difficult to execute effectively, so we spend a lot of time on them. We defend with our hands up protecting our head and body. The most common misconception is that we can't fight on the ground. That's in a word, rediculous. Though we do not take our techniiques to the ground per se, anyone who thinks we cannot apply our techniques on the ground has never tried it against someone who knows what they're doing.

The reason I think this is not common knowledge is simply because most students (as with most arts) quit after a year or so and very few take it to the black belt level. It's advanced learning that we do not practice at junior levels. Students must demonstrate an acceptable level of skill before this training starts. Even fewer students achieve proficiency because it takes literally thousands of attempts and most students get bored and want to train in something new and exciting like weapons. Because of this, few practitioners are what you might consider "dangerous" at comparable levels. This is why when discussing Taekwondo I try to understand the experience level of practitioner or individual I'm talking to. Taekwondo is an onion with many layers. It is truly an effective art for anyone who's willing to put in the effort to attain what it has to offer.

Another major difference is understanding Taekwondo is and art, not just a sport. In other words, we don't limit ourselves soley to the physical attributes of Taekwondo. The mental and philisophical attributes are just as important as many other arts that incorporate it into their training. (Again, this does not mean that sport Taekwondo does not practice these things) Acceptance of the tenets, basic understanding of Korean history, culture and events that led to the unification of the kwans and ultinately the birth of modern day Taekwondo. Always speculative yet interesting as there are no "official" records of what transpired. Personally, one of my favorite topics (See stickies in Taekwondo section). :)

I could keep going on any may later. Sorry if i got too lengthy. I truly love my art and will talk obout it endlessly.

Regards,
Great post. For a moment I was trying to figure out who form my dojang was posting this.

The only thing that I want to add is that when teaching children we also take a different approach. Kids learn basic gross motor skills like jumping, running, pushups, sit-ups, kicks, and punches. They learn the forms but with not much attention to detail as it is all about developing the mind and discipline. This is why many look at TKD schools as kiddy care. However (and I am only speaking for my school) after the age of 8 we expect much more from you. You will be required to learn all forms up to your belt level and will be taught some basic SD along with basic one step sparing. Just about everything that Gemini mentioned in his post applies to eight and up.

If it is the sport side of things you want, there is a specific class for that. However you still must maintain coming to regular classes and failure to do so will bar you from the sport competition classes. There are no exceptions. My daughter and son both won National Jr. Olympics for their weight and age and almost lost their spots in this class due to not participating in regular classes. Our Subumnin is serious about being a total Martial Artist and not just a point fighter.

Just as Gemini stated once you reach Black Belt that is when the training in the art begins. All black belts are required to attend Black Belt classes for black belts only. In this class there is so much detail that you will may get stuck on one thing for quite some time. Things that are not taught to color belts are taught in this class like more emphasis on Hapkido plus the whys and what’s of what you have been always doing.

If I had to break down TKD vs. other arts I would sum it up like this.

Color belt levels are for developing athleticism.
Black Belt lever is like being a athletic white belt in a new art.

At Black Belt you also learn to teach the art in the specific manner that it was taught to you and why it has to be this way. TKD if taught correctly ensures that you instill the etiquettes of TKD as a priority first above all else. Your first 4 years or so are all about making changes that will be needed for your training.
 
I'll preface this post by saying that I'm not a TKD student. That being said, in an effrot to better understand the art, I'm posting this topic. :) I'll also say that I'm looking to have a serious discussion here, so if someone can't post on topic or is going to post for the sake of stirring the pot, save yourself and everyone else some headache and please...dont post! :)

So..that being said: I had a very nice PM exchange with Ralph Mcpherson, on the trad. TKD/ Sport TKD debate. He shared a few things with me about his teacher and some schools in his area.

What I'm looking to discuss here, is to hear from those that have experience with what the traditional, hard core, old school, TKD is like. So, if you have that experience, if you teach it, please share with me what exactly you do. If your GM has the exp., please share. :)

Not looking to cause flames here. Just attempting to better understand your art. I know there're alot of knowledgeable TKD folks on here, so I'll now turn the thread over to you. :)

Mike


I trained TKD, Pre-Olympic (many, many years ago) and it had take downs, close in fighting drills, forms and a lot of kicking and punching… oh and no protective gear

My teacher is still teaching as far as I know in the same location but is also now back teaching in Korea as well.

And as far as I know my teacher is still teaching
 
I'll preface this post by saying that I'm not a TKD student. That being said, in an effrot to better understand the art, I'm posting this topic. :) I'll also say that I'm looking to have a serious discussion here, so if someone can't post on topic or is going to post for the sake of stirring the pot, save yourself and everyone else some headache and please...dont post! :)

So..that being said: I had a very nice PM exchange with Ralph Mcpherson, on the trad. TKD/ Sport TKD debate. He shared a few things with me about his teacher and some schools in his area.

What I'm looking to discuss here, is to hear from those that have experience with what the traditional, hard core, old school, TKD is like. So, if you have that experience, if you teach it, please share with me what exactly you do. If your GM has the exp., please share. :)

Not looking to cause flames here. Just attempting to better understand your art. I know there're alot of knowledgeable TKD folks on here, so I'll now turn the thread over to you. :)

Mike
:asian: for taking the time to get some insight.
 
I try to teach a more traditional class, to the extent you can with mostly 7-11 year olds. They aren't ready for some of the mental/spiritual concepts.

White belts we start from the feet up, meaning balance and stances. The advanced rank students I got when I took over had not been drilled on balance and footwork. Their 'kicks' (yes, that bad) looked horrible, they were leaning all over, footwork was all wrong. My new students, that myself and my group of instructors have worked from their first night, have better footwork than those advanced did when I took over. Now, they are white belts, they don't have perfect footwork yet. But they can lift their front leg into front kick chamber without their head rising up or their body leaning backwards because of shifting weight, from improper weight distribution when in a T stance/back stance. I am a big believer in proper balance and stances. Balance and footwork are universal in their importance in any MA.

We are big on forms. We do the General Choi forms, without the current ITF sine wave. My instructors were big on learning how to decipher the movements into real world self defense applications. That isn't something I work on white belts with, but as student progress to the point we feel that we can trust them with the knowledge. White belts focus on how to properly kick/punch/block. As students advance we show them where to hit. By that I mean specific points on the body, not just 'the target area for X is the ribs'.

While we do teach all the kicks, we do place emphasis on hand techniques and blocking. Besides rank specific one steps, we work on escapes from grabs/holds, placing an opponent in a hold, and takedowns. For some reason the kids like tossing the BB on the ground when learning takedowns.

Sparring has it's place. We tell them to work on stringing together moves instead of doing just one move. The level of contact goes up with age and rank.

They do learn some history through the names of the Choi forms, and we are working on packets for each belt rank of things we feel they should know about TKD and the history of it.
 
In terms of the curriculum, taekwondo actually has a greater number of hand techniques than kicking techniques.

Most schools focus on kicks because, as you say, high kicks are more difficult to train and because it is the focus of WTF sport taekwondo.

Outside of the sport, however, the focus really is more evenly divided between hand and foot techniques.

Daniel

For the non sport side, is the focus still on higher kicks or would they be mid to low level?

From a Kenpo standpoint, I do throw some head height kicks in sparring, and have had success with various combos. However, I personally feel more comfortable with chest level. Of course, depending on the type of sparring that I'm doing, I'll toss in some kick to the leg, knees, etc. :) However, for kicks in our SD techs, they're all low level.
 
So..that being said: I had a very nice PM exchange with Ralph Mcpherson, on the trad. TKD/ Sport TKD debate. He shared a few things with me about his teacher and some schools in his area.

What I'm looking to discuss here, is to hear from those that have experience with what the traditional, hard core, old school, TKD is like. So, if you have that experience, if you teach it, please share with me what exactly you do. If your GM has the exp., please share. :)

. :)

Mike

You asked an interesting question and got a lot of feedback. It is really difficult to answer your questions since there is often great debate about what is Tae Kwon Do, Taekwon-Do, and Taekwondo. There isn't even agreement on the layyout of the name.

Add to that what is "Traditional" Some claim that systems existing before 1955 when TKD was named are TKD. Are those traditional? What about the system to first be designed for that name which was pretty much the one being spread from 1955-1973 or So. Then you have the ones formulated post 1973 which is "Traditional" .

So, "Opinions vary." - Dalton
 
:asian: for taking the time to get some insight.

Well, I figure rather than running around, assuming things, why not ask those who know. :)

And thank you for your input as well. :)
 
You asked an interesting question and got a lot of feedback. It is really difficult to answer your questions since there is often great debate about what is Tae Kwon Do, Taekwon-Do, and Taekwondo. There isn't even agreement on the layyout of the name.

Add to that what is "Traditional" Some claim that systems existing before 1955 when TKD was named are TKD. Are those traditional? What about the system to first be designed for that name which was pretty much the one being spread from 1955-1973 or So. Then you have the ones formulated post 1973 which is "Traditional" .

So, "Opinions vary." - Dalton

Points taken. Like I said, this thread was mainly sparked from another thread and some private messages, so while I do undertand that there're variations, I'm just trying to get somewhat of an idea as to what the more hardcore side is like.
 
For the non sport side, is the focus still on higher kicks or would they be mid to low level?

The target that presents itself.

High or low, no one can cover everything. We teach to exploit the opening, so we practice both, but my personal preference is low, primarily the knees. It's faster and able to generate more power in a shorter distance. Not all students are capable of high kicks, but even the most inflexible can effectively execute a low kick while maintaining a guarded position.
 
...................... We tell them to work on stringing together moves instead of doing just one move.............


Oh, this made me smile! I have seen it in karate, JKD, TKD, TSD even boxing, children when they first spar do that 'I'll punch you then you punch me' thing! They are so fair and polite about it too, bless them.
 
Is there a specific reason that TKD is focused more on kicks? Of all the martial arts techniques I think high kicks are actually the most difficult to master correctly for a lot of people. Effective certainly when done properly but I was wondering why TKD has more emphasis on kicks than other styles. Was it like that originally or has it evolved over the years or even relatively recently?

The tae kwon do practiced in the forties, fifties, and sixties did not have the variety of spinning and jumping high kicks so prevalent today. They were added during the late sixties or early seventies according to a few interviews I have read with people like He Il Cho or Kim Soo, senior people who were around and practicing KMA for much of this time. Kim Soo was a part of the kwan period before General Choi unified the kwans under his direction for a time.

As for why kicks are taught dominantly now, there are several explanations which all undoubtedly have some truth to them.


  • a desire to diverge from Japanese karate
  • an attempt to rekindle a Korean martial art using the tae kyon mythos
  • flashy kicks are cool and bring in students
  • the WTF needed something truly different to get their sport into the games and Olympic rules TKD sparring is certainly different from anything that came before it
  • some honestly have bought into the kick first fighting philosophy
 
I trained TKD, Pre-Olympic (many, many years ago) and it had take downs, close in fighting drills, forms and a lot of kicking and punching… oh and no protective gear

My teacher is still teaching as far as I know in the same location but is also now back teaching in Korea as well.

And as far as I know my teacher is still teaching

I remember seeing J.H. Kim's flash-photography showing trhe speeds of various techniques in Gen. Choi's 1972 textbook. It was very cool.

Did you train with GM Kim long? He'd be a person I'd love to have a chat with about TKD history sometime.

Pax,

Chris
 
The tae kwon do practiced in the forties, fifties, and sixties did not have the variety of spinning and jumping high kicks so prevalent today. They were added during the late sixties or early seventies according to a few interviews I have read with people like He Il Cho or Kim Soo, senior people who were around and practicing KMA for much of this time. Kim Soo was a part of the kwan period before General Choi unified the kwans under his direction for a time.

As for why kicks are taught dominantly now, there are several explanations which all undoubtedly have some truth to them.


  • a desire to diverge from Japanese karate
  • an attempt to rekindle a Korean martial art using the tae kyon mythos
  • flashy kicks are cool and bring in students
  • the WTF needed something truly different to get their sport into the games and Olympic rules TKD sparring is certainly different from anything that came before it
  • some honestly have bought into the kick first fighting philosophy


Dancingalone, I think you are right here for me TKD has evolved into a flashy/flying/spining kicks because of the desire to diverge from japanese karate (in the beginimg of TKD) and because flashy kicks are cool and bring students.

When I do sparr with the young studs in dojang I have to wach out for the high kicks, the young like to do tornado kicks and all kind of spining/jumping flying kicks, so I am not as fast and high in those kicks to nail them but I know deep in my heart that if low kicks were allowed I could catch them in the air with a well placed low kick and put them down in pain so they would think twice before go for my head.

Manny
 
For the non sport side, is the focus still on higher kicks or would they be mid to low level?

From a Kenpo standpoint, I do throw some head height kicks in sparring, and have had success with various combos. However, I personally feel more comfortable with chest level. Of course, depending on the type of sparring that I'm doing, I'll toss in some kick to the leg, knees, etc. :) However, for kicks in our SD techs, they're all low level.

Before the sport shift, we practiced high, mid and low kicking. Many of our one steps involved hapkido-esque grapples and sweeps and we did a lot of hand techniques. Strong punching, though we were weak on jabs. We also had a specific self defense night and that was pretty much zero high kicks.

After the sport shift, it gradually shifted to focusing on the mid and high level kicks, as low kicks are not really part of WTF sport TKD. At this point, he had the hapkido classes going, which is what I have shifted to.

Now, regardless of the sport focus, the poomsae do have kicks at variegated levels. Koryo, for example, opens up with a low and a mid kick. Keumgang has no kicks whatsoever. The poomsae also tend to be fairly heavy on hand techniques.

Daniel
 
And as far as I know my teacher is still teaching

Yes he is and still at the exact same dojang behind Fenway Park. I came thiiiiiiiiiiiiis close to training there when I was in college, had a part-time job Freshman year at a restaurant right next door and was friendly with a few of the folks there at the time. Really regret not doing it, but I was just too poor to make it happen :(
 
Just a note on high kicks. I think a lot of people think all we practice is high kicks because tkdists are generally good at them so people assume that our focus lies with high kicks. I have met many tkd instructors and high ranking tkdists and I am still yet to hear one say that high kicks are a good option in self defence as a general rule. Sure, if you 'stun' someone with a good low or midsection kick and you get that half a second where you have the opening by all means head kick but no reputable tkdist gets in a fight and starts throwing jump spinning kicks or tornado kicks. Also, as Ive said before, the training of high kicks or even showy kicks can drastically improve your lower kicks. If you can throw a very fast, accurate and powerful kick at head height then just imagine how good your lower kicks will be. My roundhouse kick improved out of sight after learning a tornado kick for example.
 
Back
Top