Traditional TKD Dwindling

[exile]

So true. My first TKD instructor was a former ROK officer (Korean war veteran) and our training was MUCH more severe and well-rounded (we spent more time as white belts learning how to fall than in learning how to kick above the waist) than the sport-oriented training I later got in the ATA.

Hi Jonathan, boy does that sound familiar! The emphasis is on `well-rounded'. That's the key---it's something Last Fearner has pointed out in many of his posts: over time, technical bread has kind of been leached out of TKD while a small number of moves have become super-elaborated---e.g., 520 kicks??? The separation of the technical toolkit of the MAs from combat applicability has led to a strange kind of `decorative' elaborateness with form almost totally divorced from function.

And it hasn't stopped at Olympic foot-tag sparring; the logical culmination of this separation is probably the XMA phenomenon. Thinking of the baton-twirling that was presented on that Discovery Channel special (the one focusing on Matt Mullins and Mike Chat) as part of bo combat weapon artistry---is there any connection whatever with the bo as a combat technique system? The first time I saw that video, I suddenly had this vision that this was what was going to happen to all the martial arts if current trends continue.

To each his own. Both have their place, but there MUST be both for an art to survive, IMO.

I agree completely, it really doesn't bother me one bit if someone wants to do Olympic-style TKD or point-sparring karate or XMA with back double flips. My only concern is that MA traininng with the street somewhere in mind always be available to those who want it. And that means, not so rare that it takes you a year and a day of nonstop searching to find it.

OK, this goes to Exile, I was in Viet Nam with 1 Bn 1st Marines, S-2 scout recon section. If you go to their website you will see pictures of me there.
Sgt Wade Lewis.

Hi there, Wade, pleased to meet you!

Anyway, even though I trained in TKD at that time and I did work with the ROK Marines and I did see a little combat, 1 each Purple Heart, 1 each Cross of Gallantry, I really don't ever remember using TKD in actual combat. Who knows, maybe I just forgot, it was a kinda busy time in my life. Anyway, yeah, thinking about it I gotta admit TKD did help me mentally if nothing else. After I returned to the World I did continue, still do and still having fun. Anyway, I teach Olympic style TKD and Krav Maga. I find that it not only works with adults that want to train hard corp but is great with kids that are just getting into the the arts. There are levels and there are levels. How long would (you)-you-meaning anyone) have lasted if someone advanced came on to you at full power when you were first starting? No matter how talanted you are you still have to start at the beginning to get to where you want to be, eh?

I agree completely. In fact, I think that you can have both, even in the same dojang, but the availability of practical, streetwise versions of TKD and other striking arts should be made clear to students so that those who want to go that route get a chance to learn how to use TKD skills at close-up fighting ranges, with elbow blows at multiple angles, armbars, lock-throw-strike sequences and all the other stuff that a lot of people wouldn't recognize as part of the technical toolkit of TKD (even though they're right there in the poomsae!) In fact, I believe that Terry does something like that at the dojang he owns and operates, TwinDragons.

BTW, my sense of the use the ROK Marines made of their TKD training in Vietnam comes from some accounts I've read of the Battle of Tra Binh Dong in 1967 that came out in the U.S. Marine Corps Gazette, one of which was reproduced by Stuart Anslow in his new book on combat applications of the ITF patterns. You, Jonathan and Matt have much more experience up close to (or actually in) the real thing. I've no idea at all how the training the U.S. Marines in TKD or TSD compares technically with what the ROK Marines received by way of training in the Vietnam era. But it's pretty clear that the Viet Cong were quite happy to stay out of the Korean's way; Anslow also reproduces the text of a 1966 directive from VC field commanders to stay the hell away from the Koreans at all costs unless the odds were ridiculously stacked in the VC's favor, and noting specifically that the Koreans' use of TKD in close-quarter combat made them too much of a danger to take on if they could be avoided. To me, that says something about the nature of the training those guys got (as per Jonathan's comments about his own training from that ROK guy). Most people aren't going to want to train to that level of brutality (same with the `Police Shotokan' video that someone posted a link to last month---hard to imagine what it would be like undergoing the kind of repeated, full-force, full-contact strikes to vital spots (no protective anything) that the Japanese police and special force units get as demo'd on that video), but if people do want to undergo it, or maybe some slightly less damaging version of it, my feeling is it should be available at their school and they should know that.

 

[wade]

Hi Matt, welcome home. I like sport TKD, cause you get to put on gear and bang the snot out of each other. I have students that compete at the national level in USAT TKD. I like Krav Maga cause you get to get down, dirty and nasty. We do KM with full gear on also, doesn't hurt so bad when you get kneed, elbowed and thrown to the floor and stomped on.

Exile, I'm pleased to meet you also. I also think that you can have both in the same school. When we are doing WTF TKD it is by the book and very formal. When we do Krav Maga it is everything thrown in. I feel this balances out what I teach and I try to make my players all around good fighters.

ROK Marines, ok, hmmmm, highway 1, south of Danang, mid June 1969. We are in a convoy with a group of ROK's when we came under fire from a village about 1000 meters away across an open and dry rice patty. Do we go to ground and return fire, hell no, the ROKs unassed their trucks and assulted across the rice patties. What could we do but go with them. When we got to the ville they went through it like Sherman on his march to the sea. To be honest, I wouldn't have wanted to mess with them either. They difinately had different and way more liberal Rules of Engagement than we did. Had a whole lot of fun with those boys. And yeah, I did train with them when we were in camp, lots more fun there too. It was a "learning experiance".

 

[exile]

Exile, I'm pleased to meet you also. I also think that you can have both in the same school. When we are doing WTF TKD it is by the book and very formal. When we do Krav Maga it is everything thrown in. I feel this balances out what I teach and I try to make my players all around good fighters.

I think WTF style kicking is great balance training. I wouldn't want to try to use it in a close-quarters conflict, but I train the highest kicks I can, as slowly as I can, figuring, if I can try my balance on those kinds of kicks, then the waist-high-or-lower kicks are going to be solid.

ROK Marines, ok, hmmmm, highway 1, south of Danang, mid June 1969. We are in a convoy with a group of ROK's when we came under fire from a village about 1000 meters away across an open and dry rice patty. Do we go to ground and return fire, hell no, the ROKs unassed their trucks and assulted across the rice patties. What could we do but go with them. When we got to the ville they went through it like Sherman on his march to the sea. To be honest, I wouldn't have wanted to mess with them either. They difinately had different and way more liberal Rules of Engagement than we did. Had a whole lot of fun with those boys. And yeah, I did train with them when we were in camp, lots more fun there too. It was a "learning experiance".

I think the Koreans, because of their history of being invaded from all sides, have had to be ultra-tough for hundreds of years, maybe thousands. I ran across the following little Wikipedia factoid at one point:

In 1232, the Imperial Court of Goryeo moved from Songdo to Ganghwa Island in the Bay of Gyeonggi, and started the construction of significant defenses to prepare for the Mongol threat.

The Mongols protested the move, and immediately launched a second attack. Although they reached parts of the southern peninsula, the Mongols failed to capture Ganghwa Island, and were repelled in Gwangju. The Mongol leader Sartai (???) was killed by a monk in strong civilian resistance at Yongin, forcing the Mongols to withdraw again. This is the only known incident of the commander of a Mongol Army being killed in battle.

So your description of that episode seems so much like what you'd expect from people who've been trying to keep the Japanese, the Mongols, and the Chinese out of their hair for hundreds of years and could stop the Golden Horde in its tracks... it must have been really intense, training with them.

 

[Miles]

First of all, welcome Wade and Hanza!

If it is "dwindling", don't you first have to define "Traditional TKD?" IMHO, the "tradition" of TKD is that it is evolving-the 540 kick is an example of this evolution. Only the philosophy stays the same.

On a slightly separate tangent, why not teach kids? Don't they need the self-defense more than most adults? For instance, I am over 40 years old and work in an office environment. I havent' been in a fight since 9th grade. I am really not training for self-defense though I have no doubt of what I can do.

Miles

 

[Flying Crane]

The first time I saw that video, I suddenly had this vision that this was what was going to happen to all the martial arts if current trends continue.

Not everyone, dammit...

 

[terryl965]

I am simply amazed that most people believe that Old fashion TKD is not around and as far as teaching childern, why not they have to feel some sort of training or most or all Martial Arts will simply go away. They are the building blocks for the preservalance of our Art.
I know of alot of soft school but even they have there place mainly to keep them involved long enough to fall in love with the Art, so and when that happens they look for better and more serious training and that is when we reel them in and keep them for life.
Just my humble opinion

 

[exile]

Not everyone, dammit...

No, not everyone---fortunately for all of us! But the power of media to cast the aura of glamour around just those aspects (or mutations) of any sport or other activity that feed the entertainment industry winds up creating a new competitive enviroment in which ideas sink or swim: they now must succeed not under the conditions which led to their creation (self-defense using whatever materials came to hand), but under radically different conditions that correspond to the selling strengths of television programming: what sorts of activity catch the eye and hold the attention of channel surfers in the right demographic? XMA-style bo-twirling would probably get you killed if you tried to use it against a street creep with a tire iron, but it will impress the hell out of 18-25-year-olds trying to figure out how to kill the next hour or two in front of a 42" HD screen---compared say with Fumio Demura showing in careful detail just how to use that bo/broom-handle/pool-cue/bo-substitute-of-choice to disarm (in every sense) and dispatch that guy with the tire iron. And I can just imagine what some of our sword people had to say about Jonathan Boyd's katana-juggling trick at the same tournament...

It's true, as long as there are enough people around who are willing to support the combat criterion for good technique in the combat arts---so that those with the skills to teach them will always have enough of a clientele to keep them in the game---then, in a sense, it doesn't matter how many people go the baton-twirling route. The danger is that it may wind up becoming too hard to find highly skilled practitioners of TMAs for it to be practical to do, in the end.

 

[IcemanSK]

I am simply amazed that most people believe that Old fashion TKD is not around and as far as teaching childern, why not they have to feel some sort of training or most or all Martial Arts will simply go away. They are the building blocks for the preservalance of our Art.
I know of alot of soft school but even they have there place mainly to keep them involved long enough to fall in love with the Art, so and when that happens they look for better and more serious training and that is when we reel them in and keep them for life.
Just my humble opinion

I agree with Terry, here. Are there folks making $$ out of day-care centers & calling it TKD? You bet. But that doesn't mean "the reall deal" isn't out there & that you can't teach "the real deal" to kids. I also agree with Miles & others who talk about self-defense not being the "end all" for the Art. After training for 24 years, working in tough neighborhoods & with some pretty hard folks, I've never used used my physical skills in a fight. Honestly, for those who brag about their "street-use" of what they learn in class, I doubt that they've gotten "the real deal" of TKD. Unless it was learned in the military & used for military purposes, that ain't the real deal.

 

[exile]

for those who brag about their "street-use" of what they learn in class, I doubt that they've gotten "the real deal" of TKD. Unless it was learned in the military & used for military purposes, that ain't the real deal.

Not the whole real deal, surely. But it's part of the real deal. The problem I see is that that component is probably the first thing that gets dropped from the curriculum of the garden-variety dojang. Dojangs like Terry's are probably much more the exception than the rule...

I think of an MA curriculum along the lines of a university degree: people will want to major in different things, minor in (other) different things, and just get by with the minimum requirement in (still other) different things. And even within a single major, like say psychology, some people will want to focus on the clinical aspect, psychology as therapy, while others are more interested in using the tools of the field to develop a scientifically satisfying picture of how the mind works. I don't think anyone is demanding fanatical exclusiveness in the TKD curriculum. But people who want to focus on the SD side of TKD are probably going to have to spend a lot longer looking for a dojang which gives them the chance to explore to their heart's content that side of the art than someone who wants to get into some of the other aspects that training offers, aerobic exercise, competitive sparring, and so on. As I understand it, that was the concern that motivated the original post in this thread, no?

 

[Hanza]

That actually about sums it up exile. Thanks for that ^^ But the problem i have is that due to the fear of pain and injury in so many people extreme traditional schools who taught the hardcore body hardening stuff have almost altogether dissappeared. Not saying that there are'nt any. But there are so few that train to that level and degree that i would have to travel to find one. Possibly even going as far as korea. But there are schools that train tough, but not as hard as i wish.

I dont know, maybe my standards are just ridiculously high. ^^ Which may seem stupid, but it's what i want.

 

[exile]

...the problem i have is that due to the fear of pain and injury in so many people extreme traditional schools who taught the hardcore body hardening stuff have almost altogether dissappeared. Not saying that there are'nt any. But there are so few that train to that level and degree that i would have to travel to find one. Possibly even going as far as korea. But there are schools that train tough, but not as hard as i wish.

I dont know, maybe my standards are just ridiculously high. ^^ Which may seem stupid, but it's what i want.

This is something that has come up on several different threads over the past couple of months, and it's a real problem: the nature of the MA marketplace is very different in early early 21st century North America from what it was in the late 19th and early 20th century Asian societies where the modern forms of `traditional' MAs were born. It's occurred to me many times that the biggest factor driving MA training away from the kind of harsh application of its technical base (whatever the specific MA might be) and in the competitive/fitness direction is the fact that children make up so large a part of the client base these days, and while parents are probably quite happy to have their children train hard and even endure some rough training under contest conditions, very few are going to be happy with a training protocal which teachers their children how to trap someone's wrist/arm as part of an elbow break, or how to execute a hard neck twist, or follow up a knife-edge strike to the base of someone's throat with a full force elbow strike to their face---the kinds of things you might well want to do very early in a fight on the pavement.

I know I myself would find it difficult to watch someone else training my 9 year old son to do those sorts of thing so that such scenarios became automatic sequences of flowing responses---which of course they have to be if they're going to be effective for real combat. Anyone who runs a school has to face at the threshhold the fact that a good part---maybe most---of their clientele will consist of people for whom such training will be regarded as unsuitable by those who are paying the freight---i.e., their parents, even parents who, like me, think of that kind of training as perfectly fine for themselves. The best you can hope for is that the dojang owner will make such training available on top of the main menu, as a kind of special option for those who want it (and, probably, are willing to pay for it). It's just a basic fact of life for those who are in business, and it's not just the MAs: Chevrolet makes a minute number of Corvettes, for those who want zero-to-sixty times in the low single digits, but that's not what keeps them in business.

This is where luck comes in. If you can find someone close to home who'll train you that way, you'll be doing OK, but depending where you live, the odds may be really long. If you are willing to travel, though, the place you might do best to look into would be the UK. There are a lot of British MAists who seem to be getting back to this kind of training, both in karate and, increasingly, in TKD. I don't think it's an impossible quest at all... but it may require a lot more effort than most people would be willing to invest.

 

[Mark Lynn]

A friend of mine signed his son up for a American TKD class and I later signed my son up. We often times watch class and talk about how things were when we came up through the ranks.

One of the big differences we've seen is the lack of standardized techniques/training on basics and the forms. When I came up in TKD (and Wado ryu for that matter) basics were a large part of the curriculumn. Now a days it seems like we have traded that for sparring techniques and more self defense training (ground work).

I have since started to work out with the adult class, and the same is true in there as in the kids classes. The lack of training on basics shows up in execution of their forms. The lack of formal training also I believe rubs off on how the students behave in class, protocal etc. etc.

Now I am an out of shape, mid 40's, I haven't practiced TKD forms in about 4 years (when I last taught them). I have been in the MAs for 25+ (mainly in the filipino martial arts for the past 14) years. There should be no reason why my forms should look better than any of these younger black belts, red belts or brown belts that have been actively training for several years. My kicks are still below belt level cause my legs aren't stretched out yet. And yet because of the way I executed my forms (beginers forms at that) the instructor calls me out in front of the class to demonstrate how the forms should be done. My students where I last taught at Green belt looked better than some of the more senior higher ranked students.

I'm not bragging on my skill or my teaching ability, I'm making the point that the hard, boring, training of basics and forms that I did 25+ years ago has benifits that aren't seen until years later have been weeded out in favor of more "realistic" techniques. This is not condemnation of the instructor (he has a lot of skill and has studied other arts) because I have seen this in other schools as well. It is a condemnation of a trend that is prevelant in the MAs as a whole.

 

[IcemanSK]

There are a lot of things that have influenced the change in MA training. The biggest being media. From Bruce Lee to video games to XMA (see video games) kid's attention span for working on form, & technique (over flash) has had a significant impact on the way MA can be taught to kids. Heck, even on "The Simpson's" Bart bolted from his Karate class after 5 minutes when sensei didn't "break out the Nunchucks." He went to play video games.

The hard thing for instructors to do is balance good technique & shorter attention spans. The easy way out is to "make it fun" at the expense of good technique. The sad part is there's no place for the XMA folks & Power Rangers to talk about how hard it is & how much they work on good technique in the spotlight they're given. I have no easy answers. I just teach the best way I know how. I keep in mind class should be 1) Fun 2) Challenging 3) Productive. I want them to enjoy as they learn. I'm not interested in what belt they attain.

 

[TKDmel]

The lack of training on basics shows up in execution of their forms. The lack of formal training also I believe rubs off on how the students behave in class, protocal etc. etc.

I whole heartedly, absolutely, positively agree!

 

[TraditionalTKD]

The decline in traditional Tae Kwon Do can, in my opinion, be attributed to one primary thing: money. Money ruins everything. As soon as people found out there was money to be made in Tae Kwon Do, they sacrificed the integrity upon which the art was based for the almighty dollar. And it doesn't matter whether the instructor is American or Korean. God knows the Koreans are just as bad as the Americans.
I define traditional traditional tae kwon do as tae kwon do that emphasizes basics, manners, etiquette, Korean/Oriental philosophy, and the Way that strengthens the body, mind, and spirit. As opposed to just winning points in a tournament, filling your bank account, or who has the flashiest technique or uniform. To me, traditional instructors do not teach to make money, they teach because they love and want to promote the art.
Why is traditional Tae Kwon Do hard to find? Because it's not exciting and there's no money in it.

 

[zDom]

The decline in traditional Tae Kwon Do can, in my opinion, be attributed to one primary thing: money. Money ruins everything.

Can't say I completely agree. I believe it is the LOVE of money (i.e. GREED) not money itself, that tends to corrupt. Money has made a lot of things better.

Why is traditional Tae Kwon Do hard to find? Because it's not exciting and there's no money in it.

Not sure I believe this, either.

a) I personally find traditional TKD more exciting that sport

b) There is ALWAYS money to be had in providing quality goods and services, and the instruction of traditional TKD is (usually) a quality service.

Although this:

To me, traditional instructors do not teach to make money, they teach because they love and want to promote the art.

IS true.

 

[IcemanSK]

Money isn't the only reason for the "dwindling." Things grow & change for a lot of reasons. For better or worse, creativitity & expansion of Arts from MMA, & the popularity of movies have changed MA of all types. Heck, even changes in the forms & new forms themselves have changed TKD. The Tae Guek forms reflected a change & growth. That wasn't about money.

My point is, it not just one thing. Its many.

 

[exile]

I really don't think motive for training can be overlooked as part of the change in the MAs. The people who learned Asian MAs more than a hundred years ago were---as many of us have pointed out in various threads---betting their lives and that of their families on their training. Times were violent, and justice was not exactly even-handed---mostly you had to supply your own, which was easy for landlords and warlords and the wealthy, and not so easy for the peasants who made up the overwhelming majority of the populations of these nations. Imagine having to rely on your own knowledge and abilities to do what a modern police force, law enforcement network and legal system do for you, and you get the picture... and nothing in modern life in western societies, which is where the big MA boom of the past thirty years has taken place, is remotely combarable to those condition. So the MAs themselves no longer represent part of the the everyday, no-nonsense, no-luxury survival practices of a large portion of the population, but rather a somewhat esoteric pursuit on the part of a far more secure minority of enthusiasts, many of whom are professionally competent, but in a wildly different context.

It's not surprising that many, many changes have come into the MAs in the past century in the Western context. When you bemoan the decline of `traditional' MAs, remember that they weren't our traditions for the most part, and the people for whom they were traditions made them so for reasons that have very little to do with what our lives these days are like...