Traditional or not?

[FearlessFreep]

My view of "traditional" is based on how we incorporated it. As far as I know, the militaristic etiquette (lining up) is a throwback to the days when TKD was used primarily by the military 40-50 years ago. I would also add the ethos of the Hwa Rang warriors from 1500 years ago.
Everything else is an incorporation of the three schools of Oriental thought I mentioned previously. We have never incorporated American tradition in our practice, although if you want to count handshakes and using the American flag in bowing I suppose you could.
I firmly believe if you remove these principles, you remove what makes Tae Kwon Do what it is.

I actually pretty strongly disagree with this on both counts.

First, I've been a Christian a lot longer than I've practiced Tae Kwon Do, so my own spiritual, philosophical and metaphysical belief structure is already well founded and as a result, I have little interest in martial arts for any over tones of Oriental thought.

Secondly, we are not in the military. I've been in the US Military and can understand and appreciate the need for conformity and uniformity in dealing in a military structure, especially in the context of trying to keep several hundred people organized and in line and moving as a unit. But most of us don't live in that world. A certain amount of order and cohesion is needed when attempting to organize a roomful of 20 or so students, but most of us in the dojang are not learning to work, act, and think as a unit and we don't [need to] carry that mindset out of the dojang. A marching band needs to learn to march as a single unit of cohesion, an orchestra is coordinated following one timekeeper, but a jazz band, while it needs to be tight, it's a completely different thing, a different mindset in terms of how to be co-ordinated in a group. Even that is a weak analogy because when I'm training in Taekwondo I'm not training coordinated moves in a team but just personal self-defense.

So to me things like sleeves rolled up or not or turning away from a senior to adjust your uniform or other protocol aspects fall under "well that's what the instructor uses to maintain order in a small group setting" but they have little to do with whether or not I'm improving the effectiveness of a sidekick, so as long as they don't interfere with that, then I go along. but ultimately, I'm not training to be in the South Korean army and I'm not training to improve my "Oriental thought", I'm just training to be better at protecting myself and along the way I get in better shape and have some fun. If by "traditional Taekwondo" one means "a more effective well rounded means of personal self-defense" then I'm all for it. If by "traditional Taekwondo" one means "imitating a militaristic mindset and practice from a culture and time completely alien to me", sorry, not interested

 

[buddah_belly]

If by "traditional Taekwondo" one means "imitating a militaristic mindset and practice from a culture and time completely alien to me", sorry, not interested

I tend to agree with you there. When I did Aikido I had these delusions of spiritual granduer. I used to think that I did martial arts because the enemy is me. The enemy is still me, but martial arts don't fix that. My demons always seem to come out on the mat, but aikido never fixed them. That's my job.

Now I do martial arts because it's fun. I like to hit stuff and I like to kick stuff. It's good exercise and it's fun. Nothing more, nothing less. I don't mind following the instructor's rules (which sound pretty relaxed compared to some of what I've read here...we only have to wear dobok for testing and promotion). I suppose if you are doing a competition type deal where a whole herd of people do the same thing (like syncronized swimming only no water...lol...) then maybe. I guess I'm just used to training in very small groups (classes of less than ten) and it's a more relaxed atmosphere. I don't think one is better than the other but if I wanted to be in the military, I'd go join the army...just a matter of personal preference.

 

[Laurentkd]

I actually pretty strongly disagree with this on both counts.

First, I've been a Christian a lot longer than I've practiced Tae Kwon Do, so my own spiritual, philosophical and metaphysical belief structure is already well founded and as a result, I have little interest in martial arts for any over tones of Oriental thought.

Can you explain how your Christian beliefs keep you from any interest in Oriental thought?

 

[YoungMan]

Tae Kwon Do is not religion. As far as I know, nothing in its philosophy or spiritual practices should preclude Christians from observing them. Several of our Instructors are devout Christians, and they seem to have no problem with these principles. I think Christians who think the spiritual side of Tae Kwon Do is incompatable with their beliefs have been misinformed.

 

[Kwan Jang]

IMO, tradition is valuable IF it effectively is helping to convey a worthwhile lesson to the next generation. Ultimately though, the "traditions" of one school or assn. may differ greatly from anothers. When my instructor enters the training floor either when I go back to his school or when he visits mine, I stop class and bow him in. OTOH, if one of the instructors under me, even those of master rank, do the same when I enter the floor at my school, I get (privately) annoyed with them for breaking the flow of the class.

I have always turned away to fix my belt or dobok/gi and have always taught my students that it was just good manners, though I do not get offended if they forget to do so. I just don't want guests to think my students are uneducated savages. As far as rolling up sleeves goes, I think it is more of a question of fuction. I have over 20" arms, 54-55" chest and 30" thighs. Because of my physical proportions, I wear a size 8 uniform, but am just a hair over 6' tall. If I didn't roll up my sleeves when I teach, I would never see my hands. When I train on my own, I wear shorts and a t-shirt or sweats rather than my uniform anyways. If I am at a formal workout or training with my instructor (or anybody else, seminar, ect.), I wear my uniform the same way that I teach in. If one of the teens wants to wear the sleeves up to put on a "gun show", I chuckle to myself and ask him to roll down the sleeves because it "is not traditional" (my own code for "you look a bit foolish, but I would rather not embarrass you or allow you to embarrass yourself").

As far as the sidebar of "American-ized TKD" vs. "Korean-ized TKD", I feel that if a formal ettiquette from Korea is of value to the students, incorperate it. If an instructor doesn't feel it is in the best interests of the students, then leave it out. Keep in mind though that the "1500 years of tradition going back to the hwa rang" is merely the fabrication of Korean nationalism. When Ryukyu/Okinawan kenpo was brought over to mainland Japan, many of it's customs and "traditions" were altered to make it palatable to the new culture that it was introduced to. When the mainland Japanese version (mostly shotokan) was exported to Korea, it's customs and "traditions" (as well as much of it's true historical roots) were altered to make it palatable to the new culture that it was introduced to. If Americans, Aussies, and Europeans take the same approach when adapting the cultures and traditions of TKD to make it palatable to their culture, aren't they just keeping this tradition alive?

 

[agemechanic03]

You know iceman another tradition I have always followed as been turning your back to your instructor when fixing the Dobok or uniform. It was always thatw ay anybody else do that.

We do that here in Korea in my Tang Soo Do Class. Also, when putting on our Dee's (Belts) we turn away from the instructor too.

 

[agemechanic03]

As for the whole "rolling" of sleeves and pants, I can't really comment on since I have never done either. I do, however, roll my waist band ONCE, which makes my pants just right for me. I'm 6'2 and 150lbs, so NOTHING ever fits me right. Personnally tho, I wouldn't have a problem with the rolling of the sleeves, but like i said, I've never been around, just seen pictures. Oh, I study Tang Soo Do, for those of you who do not know, it's Korean too and I am currently studying in S Korea as we speak.
I do prefer uniformity when practicing. I do not like seeing twenty different colors in one room, it just doesn't look and feel right to me. But also, I am in the military and am used to the whole "uniformity" thing. My instructor doesn't let us train in just T-shirts unless we are having our Doboks trimmed with a color for our belts, new, or washing the top, or have forgotten it. But to train in a t-shirt just to train when you have your dobok, he get's pissed off. Plus we don't have a school t-shirt, so that issue doesn't help.

 

[DArnold]

Yes,
To those who think that Martial Arts is just punching and kicking then these items would not make sense.

To those who have not had the benifit of an instructor that learned these things, or had the ability to teach these things then they would seem strange. (And somone mentioned a Korean... I have met many high ranking Koreans who did not what they were doing also. So nationality or rank (as we have seen) many times has little to do with knowledge these days.)

Whenever you have questions about traditions you should try to relate them back to the tenets and student oath, which is the other 50% of TaeKwon-Do. (other than kicking and punching)

For example, once you learn what the first tenet: COURTSEY is, then this will tie some of these physical aspects to the mental aspects.

And you can bow any way you want, but you show me your mental state by how you preform physically. This is much more important to me than your control over your physical techniques.

If you somehow disagree I would ask you:

Which is easier to fix? A bad technique or a bad attitude?

 

[YoungMan]

To me, the Tae Kwon Do uniform deserves the same dignity you would give a military, police, or firefighter's uniform. I daresay you wouldn't roll the sleeves up or allow those to become out of place either. People who equate martial arts to mere sport may not understand, but to me the uniform represents the dignity of traditional martial arts. If you roll the sleeves up or in some other way allow the uniform to get unkempt, you are trivializing what you practice.

 

[jim777]

Which is easier to fix? A bad technique or a bad attitude?

Now that smells like a new thread!

 

[YoungMan]

A bad attitude is the end result of years, if not decades, of experience, and is truly hard to change. Compared to that, bad technique can be fixed in mere months with proper training.

 

[newGuy12]

Which is easier to fix? A bad technique or a bad attitude?

Yes. We were told countless times, over and over, that this TKD has to do with the mind, the mental part. The student has to acquire the correct mindset, and this can only be done by a prolonged practice, years.

With the right mindset, all things are possible. The correct ways to kick and punch and spar will certainly come then, provided that there is competent Instruction.

To me, the Tae Kwon Do uniform deserves the same dignity you would give a military, police, or firefighter's uniform. I daresay you wouldn't roll the sleeves up or allow those to become out of place either. People who equate martial arts to mere sport may not understand, but to me the uniform represents the dignity of traditional martial arts. If you roll the sleeves up or in some other way allow the uniform to get unkempt, you are trivializing what you practice.

I just have to second this. This is exactly how I feel. The Dobok is special garb. Once you put on the Dobok, things change. Then, you focus the mind on the TKD only. This in itself is concentration. It is exercise for the mind. You don't allow the thoughts to vary and wander, wondering, for example, what shall I eat after class tonight. No. Instead you continue with focusing on the practice.

And, right, one would be appalled to see any police officer or military person to be seen with any kind of sub standard uniform. That would be shameful. It is even more important to us, I think. Things have to be kept to a high standard. Students should be good looking in their uniform, showing high regard for a good looking martial art!

 

[YoungMan]

That's precisely why it aggravates me when students are allowed to wear whatever uniform they want in whatever fashion they want. There is no dignity in that, and it makes martial arts look bad and low class. If you are a soldier or police officer, you would NEVER go around looking like that. Who would respect you? Why do it with a dobok?

 

[Laurentkd]

I am curious....
How do military guys wear their clothing/uniform when actually training? I mean, I know the military dress uniform always has to look a specific way, but do they never roll up the sleeves of their BDUs while training in the field or anything? I really don't know.

 

[SageGhost83]

Wearing the uniforms incorrectly shows a blatant disrespect for the style and a lack of focus on the student's part. I prefer that the uniforms be worn correctly at all times. If you are going to practice the style, then you must respect the style.

 

[scstover]

In my previous school we generally wore dobuk pants, but wore our school T-shirts. But when our master came for belt tests we work full dobuk with sleeves straight.

Now I'm in a WTF school with a Korean Master, we must wear dobuk with the school name on the back. I always roll my sleeves and nobody has ever said anything about it.

 

[newGuy12]

I am curious....
How do military guys wear their clothing/uniform when actually training? I mean, I know the military dress uniform always has to look a specific way, but do they never roll up the sleeves of their BDUs while training in the field or anything? I really don't know.

I'm sure a military person can answer this (I am not in the military), but until then, I will say this -- its MY UNDERSTANDING that either EVERYONE in the platoon will roll the sleeves up, or NOBODY will. Now, in a combat zone, this most likely goes out the window, of course.

I keep thinking of a line in a Cheech and Chong movie, where they were discussing whether they should wear uniforms in their rock-n-roll band. Well, one of those two main characters (the big one), said, "If we wear uniforms, they should all be different."

???

That's the joke -- what does the word 'uniform' mean???

Now, I am not hear to berate others. Everyone can do as the please as far as I am concerned. I have no beef with others to the point that I wish to impose my will on them. I did however wish to publicly agree with user 'YoungMan', because a nicely outfitted group of students makes a difference in my mind.

Now, of course, some schools may wish to not follow this. That is up to that school, of course. It has nothing to do with what I think!

 

[Laurentkd]

Thanks for the response NewGuy (I think it is funny that you will always be the "new guy").
I was wondering because during training time, while everyone must wear the same uniform with the same patches (at least everyone is supposed to have their patches on), people can roll their sleeves or their cuffs in whatever fashion they like to train. However, when competing or when demonstrating (in otherwords, anytime they are in the public eye) everyone's uniform must be exactly the same, everyone must wear the same warm up jacket over the uniform, everyone must have the same kicking shoes, same equipment bags, and same kicking paddles. While I respect everyone else's opinions, this makes sense to me as when we are training uniforms become disheveled all the time, and you are there to train for yourself, but when in the public eye everyone is to look the same to present a uniform appearance. That to me is the important time to look "Uniform". Personal opinions may differ, but it is these times that seem worth "the fight" with students to look exactly alike (and parents like to be able to cuff a sleeve or pant leg in order to make the uniform last their growing child for another couple months!).

 

[YoungMan]

I'm sure a military person can answer this (I am not in the military), but until then, I will say this -- its MY UNDERSTANDING that either EVERYONE in the platoon will roll the sleeves up, or NOBODY will. Now, in a combat zone, this most likely goes out the window, of course.

I keep thinking of a line in a Cheech and Chong movie, where they were discussing whether they should wear uniforms in their rock-n-roll band. Well, one of those two main characters (the big one), said, "If we wear uniforms, they should all be different."

???

That's the joke -- what does the word 'uniform' mean???

Now, I am not hear to berate others. Everyone can do as the please as far as I am concerned. I have no beef with others to the point that I wish to impose my will on them. I did however wish to publicly agree with user 'YoungMan', because a nicely outfitted group of students makes a difference in my mind.

Now, of course, some schools may wish to not follow this. That is up to that school, of course. It has nothing to do with what I think!

Thank you. Nice to know someone else agrees and realizes that this is indeed important. Outside class, you can express your individuality. In class, I strongly feel that uniformity (from the Instructor on down) needs to be enforced. To me, a whole class of white uniforms neat and sharp is a beautiful thing.

 

[ellies]

For the military, it is paramount that uniformity is key. How can there be sound strategic action on the field of battle if this gear is one way and that equipment the other way. This also breeds a discipline that is highly oticeable. From the ever-so- clean uniforms to the proper conduct of ones self, these are only some of the factors that create the incredible:wavey::wavey::wavey:artyon: spirit of TKD