Tradition for traditions sake... needed?

[mrhnau]

At least in the dojos/shibus I've been in, every class in the Bujinkan begins by students sitting in Seiza (kneeling and "sitting" on your feet). I suppose its a traditional thing. Every single time I do this, I find my knees and ankles hurting immensely. Everyone else sits in Seiza, and seems not to complain. Normally takes me a few minutes to shake it off after standing (yes, I stretch beforehand). If sitting in this position for an extended time (happens when teacher gets longwinded), I normally just cross my legs and try to get remotely comfortable...

Seiza is actually a kamae (posture) in the Bujinkan. Based on my limited knowledge of Japanese people/culture, I assume its a position that is encountered occassionally (please correct if wrong). In Western cultures, we don't tend to sit in this position frequently. As a matter of fact, I never sat in that position before trying a few martial arts. So, as an art, is there indeed a need to translate cultural habits and adapt the art? Should I engage in kneeling in an unnatural manner or traing circumstances that I am quite sure I won't encounter? How often do I realistically think I'll be attacked while sitting in Seiza (outside of class of course)? Wouldn't it be more common in the US to be attacked while sitting in a chair? Accordingly, shouldn't the chair be involved in a sort of adapted curiculum?

Personally, I just find it frustrating to keep getting in a position that is killing my knees and ankles. I have no problem with pain. Don't mind being hit, being thrown, what not... generally this is part of the learning. But Seiza for the purpose of Seiza? Sort of like being hurt just for the sake of being hurt.

 

[Sensei Payne]

It develops humbleness, not to the instructor, but to the dojo and to the lineage of the art and the style, and those who have given there lives so that you can have the training that you get...

That and it does help strech you out a bit...just keep on trying it, you will get used to it, and sitting there for an extended period is rough even for the most seasoned MAists, so no worries mate

 

[Sukerkin]

I feel your pain, mrhnau - but seiza is restful and pain-free compared to tate hiza !

It's taken me a couple of years to be able to start a technique from that posture with any degree of fluidity at all .

Now, of course, MJER is one of the arts ostensibly under the umbrella of koryu and as it centres around the use of the katana in everyday (and not so everyday) locations prevelent in previous centuries, that comment's not exactly relevant to your question :blush:.

I think that seiza's use within ceremonial activities (bowing in etc) in the dojo is fine even for 'modern' arts but you do have a valid point that to practice being attacked whilst in seiza does not seem overly useful to a present day American. Being attacked whist on a barstool or at a restaurant table would be more relevant in practical terms I'm sure.

It is nonetheless, as Payne pointed out, very useful for stretching and freeing up tendons and ligaments - even so, it's a posture that developed for much smaller and lighter people who didn't use chairs. Big, heavy, gaijin are not really anatomically designed to use it well.

 

[Sensei Payne]

It is nonetheless, as Payne pointed out, very useful for stretching and freeing up tendons and ligaments - even so, it's a posture that developed for much smaller and lighter people who didn't use chairs. Big, heavy, gaijin are not really anatomically designed to use it well.

The human body can be trained to do it, no matter where your from or your background...just takes practice my friend...but seiza was developed for that culture and not necessarily our own

 

[Sukerkin]

ROFL - that's easy for a twenty-year-old to say ... come back in twenty years and see if you feel the same (j/k).

 

[DArnold]

At least in the dojos/shibus I've been in, every class in the Bujinkan begins by students sitting in Seiza (kneeling and "sitting" on your feet). I suppose its a traditional thing. Every single time I do this, I find my knees and ankles hurting immensely. Everyone else sits in Seiza, and seems not to complain. Normally takes me a few minutes to shake it off after standing (yes, I stretch beforehand). If sitting in this position for an extended time (happens when teacher gets longwinded), I normally just cross my legs and try to get remotely comfortable...

Seiza is actually a kamae (posture) in the Bujinkan. Based on my limited knowledge of Japanese people/culture, I assume its a position that is encountered occassionally (please correct if wrong). In Western cultures, we don't tend to sit in this position frequently. As a matter of fact, I never sat in that position before trying a few martial arts. So, as an art, is there indeed a need to translate cultural habits and adapt the art? Should I engage in kneeling in an unnatural manner or traing circumstances that I am quite sure I won't encounter? How often do I realistically think I'll be attacked while sitting in Seiza (outside of class of course)? Wouldn't it be more common in the US to be attacked while sitting in a chair? Accordingly, shouldn't the chair be involved in a sort of adapted curiculum?

Personally, I just find it frustrating to keep getting in a position that is killing my knees and ankles. I have no problem with pain. Don't mind being hit, being thrown, what not... generally this is part of the learning. But Seiza for the purpose of Seiza? Sort of like being hurt just for the sake of being hurt.

Doesn't make sense to me to draw a line in the sand.
Durring long seminars we have students that I know have had back surgeries. To have them do this would probably be the dumbist thing I could think of.

Is it an actual physical limitation or is it just discomfort.
I don't think anyone knows where the line is in an individual except themselves.

How do students listen to what he is saying when they are in screaming pain. But it looks good :uhyeah:

So therefore it is a question of protecting yourself vs. your integrity.
And many students will follow their instructor off the cliff to a point where they hurt themselves.
I would say consult a physician as I have seen unexperienced instructord do very stupid stuff. (Splits when cold, deep knee bends, get up and do fast exercises after they put you to sleep with longwinded discertations)
Face it, many instructors are learning to be instructors and sometimes let common sense go with the wind for the sake of Tradition.

No student comes to class to be injured, so go talk to your instructor, if your uncomfortable, go talk your doctor.
In a word, listen to your common sense.

 

[Sensei Payne]

ROFL - that's easy for a twenty-year-old to say ... come back in twenty years and see if you feel the same (j/k).

INDEED!!!

The younger you are the easier it is to adapt..

Another reason why you sit in seiza, you subconciously prep your mind for training, routine helps program your mind to think and act a certain way...you sitting in seiza it prepares you for training..even if it is painful...

BTW a good instructor knows when he/she is being long winded, so they would/I would allow the students to sit naturally.

 

[SKB]

I have proplems sitting like that also. When I can't I move to the back and stand or take one knee, whatever. I do try to stretch myself out by doing it for as long as I can but when the long wind is blowing some times I got to move. Listen to your body!!

 

[Kacey]

Meditation at the beginning of class is intended to give you a chance to set aside the concerns of the day, so that you can concentrate on learning. If you are in a position that causes you pain, it's hard to concentrate on anything - much less clearing your mind of your day.

I kneel, yes, but some of my students sit cross-legged. It's not the specific position; it's the mediation that is important. If your instructor is telling you that you must do something that causes you pain (as opposed to discomfort - I find kneeling is a great stretch for me) and will not modify anything because it is tradition - then I would consider that a problem that needs to be addressed.

 

[bluemtn]

I can't kneel for long periods- bad ankles and knees, and it's almost impossible on hard wood floors. You should be given the choice of seiza or not. I've had instructors say to try to stay there for as long as possible, but only to a point.

 

[Sensei Payne]

Its always a good thing to try it...if you have a medical reason not to, then don't...I have a 14 year old student with splints in his hip, so its difficult for him to sit that way...

You will be better for it if you do it anyways, and you "sit" through the pain as long as possible.

 

[TheOriginalName]

This is something i think i can comment on with a degree of authority.....compared to all my rablings that i normally go on with.

We start every class\session with at a minimum 30 second mediation and then perhaps a few anoucements or presentation of white belts to new starters (which i think is an great way to start a class - really build up the energy).

I always found that kneeling to be tough on my ankles - however it was getting easier. Whenever i found myself starting to feel pain i just attempt to sit cross legged. It still shows respect but avoids the issues of pain.

And recently i injured my ankle (tore a ligament on landing a kick). I now sit cross legged and whilst i stand out as different it is recognised that i am attempting to show respect - but within my physical limits.

At the end of the day pain is a sign of damage being iminite or occuring (at least in this example) - so you need to listen to your body and ensure you look after it - it's the only one you have!!

 

[Sensei Payne]

yes yes you do what your body allows...also when you sit cross legged, remember to have your left leg on the outside...its non agressive and "more" respectful

 

[Christina05]

It develops humbleness, not to the instructor, but to the dojo and to the lineage of the art and the style, and those who have given there lives so that you can have the training that you get...

Thats exactly how I had it explained to me when I asked my Sensei that question when I first started my Ma training. No worries the more you sit the stronger your ankles get at least thats what he told me.

 

[Steel Tiger]

yes yes you do what your body allows...also when you sit cross legged, remember to have your left leg on the outside...its non agressive and "more" respectful

Thats exactly how I had it explained to me when I asked my Sensei that question when I first started my Ma training. No worries the more you sit the stronger your ankles get at least thats what he told me.

This is very interesting. My teacher always advocated favouring the left because we were not at war. This apparently stemmed, for us in a CMA anyway, from Sun Tzu where he suggests that the right be honoured in war.

 

[Sensei Payne]

Thats exactly how I had it explained to me when I asked my Sensei that question when I first started my Ma training. No worries the more you sit the stronger your ankles get at least thats what he told me.

yes most Martial Arts do not worship any "person" or "God(s)"...they merely show respect to "those who have gone before", which is the literal translation of "Sensei"

 

[Nomad]

As someone who had knee surgery to replace a ligament a couple of years ago, Seiza isn't really an option... it's one of the few things that still really bothers me immediately on trying it (kicks, jumps, takedowns, everything else works fine). Fortunately our dojo switched to sitting cross-legged quite awhile back as our instructor believes that Seiza was not good on the knees.

I do occasionally try it for short periods of time, just to see if I can get to a place where it doesn't immediately start hurting, and because I do want to pursue more of the sword arts that use Seiza so often as a starting point.

 

[CoryKS]

You should ask the teacher for an explanation of the purpose for sitting in that position. Whoever is in charge should know exactly why they do the things they do, otherwise it's simply a cargo cult.

 

[Em MacIntosh]

I feel I have benifitted very much from the traditional emphasis on respect, a calm mind and learning some japanese. I respect the tradition very much. Some things just don't work for me in real life, like keeping the foot planted but when I'm in the dojo, I'm learning karate, not kickboxing.