Toyota halts US sales of 8 recalled models

[Rich Parsons]

Per: http://media.gm.com/content/media/u...l/content/Pages/news/us/en/2010/Feb/0201_vibe

GM Tests Show Vibe Brakes Can Stop Unintended Acceleration



2010-02-01


General Motors has tested two Pontiac Vibe small SUVs and found the brakes stop the vehicle in case of unintended acceleration.



The 2009-10 Pontiac Vibe, a sister vehicle of the Toyota Matrix, is included in two Toyota recalls related to unintended acceleration, one for sticking accelerator pedals and one for possible floor mat entrapment. The Vibe was designed, engineered and manufactured by Toyota through
August 2009 at New United Motor Manufacturing, which was a GM-Toyota joint venture.


“We ran the Vibe wide open at 60 miles an hour and the brakes were able to bring the vehicle to a safe stop within 169 meters, consistent with our internal requirement for brake performance.” said Martin Hogan, GM director of brake systems.


In the rare case of a sticking throttle, a driver should apply the brakes firmly and steadily until you come to a stop. Do not pump the brakes, which can deplete the available vacuum boost from the brake system.

Any customer who experiences any accelerator pedal issue should immediately park the vehicle, and have it towed to their GM dealer for an inspection.


Toyota has identified a repair for the Vibe, which will be serviced by GM dealers. GM and Toyota are sorting out how soon parts will be available. The Vibe braking tests were conducted by GM engineers on Saturday at the Milford Proving Grounds after several customers complained of sticking accelerator pedals following the Toyota recalls involving the Vibe were announced Jan. 21 and 27.


None of the complaints have resulted in a crash or injury.

Prior to the recall announcements, GM had not received any relevant customer complaints in the 2009-2010 Pontiac Vibe. Nor were there any complaints found in a search of U.S. and Canadian databases.


GM will communicate with the approximately 99,000 Vibe owners in the United States and Canada as soon as additional information about the recalls is received from Toyota.

General Motors has tested two Pontiac Vibe small SUVs and found the brakes stop the vehicle in case of unintended acceleration.

 

[KELLYG]

Xue,

There is a difference between a Recall and a Service Action. A Recall is federally mandated by NTSB (usually a safety issue) and a Service Action is a problem that the manufacture sees and agrees to take care of with out any intervention via NTSB. The silent recalls you mentioned usually fall into the Service Action category and usually have no bearing on the safety of the automobile and can be handled at the vehicle's next service appointment.

Stop sales are not all that uncommon, most are just handled at the dealership while the car is in inventory and awaiting to be sold. They required to be completed (by law) before the vehicle can be sold.

The problem with the Toyota Recall situation is the shear volume of vehicle requiring the recall. The failure rate is probably still very minute in relationship to the vehicles that fall in to the Recall category. Then I also understand that if your car fails who cares about the % of failure rate.

I think that Toyota will as quickly and safely as possible fix all of the vehicles that require the updated parts and in my opinion is being ernest in its efforts to resolve this to everyones satisfaction. I think that Toyota is the only car brand that I can remember that has apoligized publicly for its mistakes.

FYI I do not work for Toyota.

 

[Rich Parsons]

LaHood says don't drive recalled Toyotas til fixed

Per: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100203/ap_on_bi_ge/us_toyota_recall

WASHINGTON – Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood is telling owners of recalled Toyotas to stop driving the vehicles and get them fixed.

LaHood's warning came Wednesday in testimony before a House Appropriations subcommittee on transportation. LaHood says his advice to owners is to "stop driving it. Take it to a Toyota dealer because they believe they have a fix for it."

Toyota's most recent recall in the United States affects 2.3 million vehicles with the potential for sticking gas pedals.

LaHood told reporters earlier in the day that Toyota owners should contact their dealer immediately and "exercise caution until repairs can be made."

 

[KELLYG]

According to AP 11 mins ago
WASHINGTON – Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood now says he misspoke when telling owners of recalled Toyotas to stop driving then.
Instead, LaHood says take them to dealerships to get them repaired.
LaHood told reporters it was "obviously a misstatement" when he told a House panel earlier Wednesday that he would advise owners not to drive recalled vehicles. The remark came during testimony to the Appropriations subcommittee on transportation.

 

[Rich Parsons]

LaHood says don't drive recalled Toyotas til fixed

Per: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100203/ap_on_bi_ge/us_toyota_recall

According to AP 11 mins ago
WASHINGTON – Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood now says he misspoke when telling owners of recalled Toyotas to stop driving then.
Instead, LaHood says take them to dealerships to get them repaired.
LaHood told reporters it was "obviously a misstatement" when he told a House panel earlier Wednesday that he would advise owners not to drive recalled vehicles. The remark came during testimony to the Appropriations subcommittee on transportation.

Yes the link has the updated corrrection.

I am a little disappointed at this situation

1) Secretary LaHood Mispsoke in the first place
2) Yahoo changed it's article and did not have a new updated URL, so now people like me who quoted it look bad. This is very poor professionalism by
if you ask me.

 

[KELLYG]

I thought it was kinda weird. You are usually right on point!!!

 

[Xue Sheng]

Xue,

There is a difference between a Recall and a Service Action. A Recall is federally mandated by NTSB (usually a safety issue) and a Service Action is a problem that the manufacture sees and agrees to take care of with out any intervention via NTSB. The silent recalls you mentioned usually fall into the Service Action category and usually have no bearing on the safety of the automobile and can be handled at the vehicle's next service appointment.

I am not sure what you would call it today but 23 years ago Chrysler told its newly acquired Jeep dealerships it was a silent recall and that customers did not need to know about it, when a Cherokee came in just change it. And a wire harness replacement is not a small deal and shutting off in traffic after a right turn can be a rather big safety issue. It gave me a whole lot of material to give the Chrysler mechanics in the shop a hard time... I was on the VW side of the shop

And I just realized DAMN I'm old... I'm talking about something from 23 years ago and I was a working adult then....sheeesh I'm a geezer

 

[Rich Parsons]

Just to show I was not crazy:

per: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100204/ap_on_bi_ge/us_toyota_recall

WASHINGTON – Americans should park their recalled Toyotas unless driving to dealers for accelerator repairs, Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood warned Wednesday — then quickly took it back — as skepticism of company fixes grew and the government's probe expanded to other models in the U.S. and Japan. Questions now are being raised about the brakes on Toyota's marquee Prius hybrid.

This first line says it did happen, now let us hope they do not change it again. Then no one will trust anyone.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Rich,
Did you post the article by Steve Wozniak or did I see that somewhere else?

 

[Rich Parsons]

Rich,
Did you post the article by Steve Wozniak or did I see that somewhere else?

I was going to post it, and I might have. Now you have me thinking.

I have a few mroe to post this morning and one fo them relates to the Steve Wozniak Brakes on the Prius.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Per:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100204/ap_on_bi_ge/toyota_recall

I will add in some comments of mine inbetween some highlights/


Toyota says Prius had brake design problems

By YURI KAGEYAMA, AP Business Writer Yuri Kageyama, Ap Business Writer – 39 mins ago
TOKYO – Toyota acknowledged design problems with the brakes in its prized Prius, adding to the catalog of safety woes at the Japanese automaker as it reels from massive global recalls involving faulty gas pedals.

Toyota Motor Corp., which Thursday reported a $1.7 billion profit for last quarter, said it had corrected problems with the antilock brake system in Prius models sold since late last month, including those shipped overseas.

But the company was still deciding what steps to take to fix the problem in Prius cars sold in Japan and overseas before late January.

Toyota with the above statement has admitted there is a problem.

Whether a recall is necessary for the Prius was still undecided, according to Toyota executive Hiroyuki Yokoyama, but the transport minister urged the company to consider it and is ordering an investigation.

The Japanese Government is investigating a recall for the Prius Brakes

When the car moves on a bumpy or slippery surface, a driver can feel a pause in the braking when the vehicle switches between the traditional hydraulic brakes and the electronically operated braking system, he said.

The brakes start to work if the driver keeps pushing the pedal, but the driver may momentarily feel they aren't working, he said.

Perception and feel are tricky and difficult to get right for multiple countries and cultures. But if the brakes do not hold the vehicle then that is a different condition.

A major Toyota dealership in Tokyo said the automaker had informed dealers that Prius brakes can sometimes fail to work for less than a second but it had not told owners.

Here a dealership has stated that the Manufacturer Toyota has admitted that the Brake System on the Prius can fail. Even though it says for just a second, it will be very difficult for a jury to ignore that it could fail for a short period or a second of time. I could see the accidents and juries not understanding the physics or timing involved. Note: I am not defending nor attacking Toyota only making a personal comment.

Despite snowballing problems with quality, Toyota reported Thursday a $1.7 billion profit for the October-December quarter, citing healthy sales of its green models including the Prius, and predicted it would return to profit for the fiscal year through March.

Toyota shares tumbled on the Tokyo Stock Exchange, falling 3.5 percent to close at 3,280 yen ($36) after plunging 5.7 percent the previous day. Since Jan. 21, when the U.S. recalls were announced, the stock has lost about 22 percent.

It looks like Toyota is seeing a small impact to the "value" of their stock based upon recent issues.

Toyota senior managing director Takahiko Ijichi defended the automaker's quality standards.
"We have not sacrificed the quality for the sake of saving costs," he said. "Quality is our lifeline. We want our customers to feel safe and regain their trust as soon as possible."

This is a Good Company response. No one would want to admit to anything but this.

Toyota is expecting to lose 100,000 in vehicle sales because of the recall fallout — 80,000 of them in North America.

Out of a 10 to 11 million unit sales expected for the current Model Year sales in North America this would be 0.73% of the total market share they have lost. I think Toyota was expecting around 22% market share which would be 3.3% of their sales as a loss. I believe this loss is for all their recent issues not just the Prius Brake Issue.

The tarnishing of the Prius nameplate is also a serious setback for Toyota's recovery from the global auto slump.

This is very True. Toyota had plans to make all their Hybrids use the Prius as a Brand name, versus Toyota Highlander Hybrid, it would be the Prius Highlander. Or at least that is what is being rumored around the business.

I agree this would be a major setback to the name of Prius.

The automaker has received 77 complaints in Japan about braking problems for the Prius. Separately, the Japanese government confirmed 14 complaints. About 100 complaints over Prius brakes have been filed in the U.S.

77 complaints in Japan.

100 in US.

To me this shows the perception issue and how many of the existing Toyota owners will go out of their way to ignore a problem and not make it an issue for their beloved auto manufacturer. But that is something I have been arguing for a while, with no real data to prove. So take that with a grain of salt.

At least one accident has been reported in Japan suspected of being linked to faulty braking. In that accident, in July 2009, a Prius crashed head on into another car, slightly injuring two people, according to the transport ministry.
Toyota had looked into that accident and concluded there were no problems with the Prius.

Once again a standard response I would expect. As what would the reasonable average person do with the system.

U.S. lawmakers who are now digging into the recalls say they would look into the Prius.

When ever the US government gets involved it never looks good.

 

[Rich Parsons]

per: http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20100203/ts_csm/277999



Toyota recall: Are sticky gas pedals the real culprit?

...
Electronic defects may also have contributed to the problem, say investigators and independent safety experts. Federal safety regulators have begun an investigation into Toyota’s electronic throttle control system, which connects the accelerator pedal to the engine via sensors that send electric signals, rather than a mechanical cable.

“It’s not just sticking gas pedals,” says Byron Bloch, an independent auto safety expert. “Toyota, which does a pretty good job in many ways, made a bad decision when they went to electronic throttle control. They should have adopted more safety measures and they didn’t. And their customers and company are suffering as a result.”

Toyota maintains that its electronic throttle control system is not to blame.

“Through many investigations over a period of many years, Toyota has never found a problem with the electronic throttle control system that could lead to unintended acceleration,” says Brian Lyons, safety and quality communications manager at Toyota, USA. “The results of those investigations recently have indicated pedal entrapment and sticky pedal [are to blame].”

Independant investigators have stated there is a problem with the ETC (* Electronic Thorttle Control System *). these are the same independant organizations that Toyota raves about when they have good things to say about their products and company.

Doubts about causeBut a recent investigation by the Los Angeles Times also casts doubt on Toyota’s decision to blame sudden acceleration on the gas pedal defects.

Motorists have to date lodged more than 2,000 complaints of sudden acceleration in Toyota and Lexus vehicles over the last decade, according to the Times report. The problem has led to 19 deaths and 815 vehicle crashes since 1999, as well as global recalls numbering in the millions.

Complaints of sudden acceleration soared with the introduction of electronic throttles in Toyota vehicles in 2002, the Los Angeles Times report says. And of the 2,000 complaints of sudden acceleration in Toyota vehicles since, only 5 percent blamed sticking gas pedals, according to the report.

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) has conducted eight investigations into sudden-acceleration problems in Toyota vehicles in the past seven years and none of them have identified a sticking pedal as a cause, the report adds.

Seven investigation in 8 years is a lot. If this was anyone but Toyota there would be press coverage of there is a problem somewhere, it just has not been found yet. Once again personal opinion on this.

Moreover, the maker of the faulty gas pedals, Indiana-based CTS Corp., claims that its product has been unfairly blamed.

The problem of sudden unintended acceleration has been reported to have existed in some Lexus vehicles and Toyota vehicles going back to 1999 when CTS did not even make this product for any customer

I also think CTS ha been thrown under the bus as we say locally. IN particular if you look at products that do not have their part and the common between them and other pedal suppliers is the control strategy for ETC.



Per: http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20100203/wl_csm/277758

Toyota recall: Chinese see lessons for own firms with tainted products

By Peter Ford Peter Ford – Wed Feb 3, 10:09 am ET
Beijing – For once, the tables are turned.
Toyota’s recall of 75,000 vehicles from Chinese drivers is a reversal of the normal pattern of unsafe Chinese goods being withdrawn from foreign markets.

And the move, part of a worldwide recall of more than 8 million Toyota cars that might suffer from a jammed gas pedal, has drawn praise from some Chinese Web users who compare the Japanese company’s decision with normal Chinese practice.

“How many Chinese companies dare to recall their products?????” asked one.

THis is bad when Toyota is being compared even slightly to Chinese issues and bad products and recalls.

 

[KELLYG]

Rich,

Good info!

I had a couple of ideas about the current Toyota deal.

1. They are going to recall appx 2.3 million vehicle's in North
America. 2,300,000 x .5 (appx time it takes to repair) x $100.00 (guess on average market labor per hour sold= 115,000,000 that will be divided among all the dealers in North America. According to Wikipedia there are currently 1447 dealers in north America. This Nets to about $80,000.00 in additional revenues per dealership. How about that for stimulating the economy.

2. If most automobile manufactures in US are owned/backed by the government, then the more hype directed at Toyota the better for the US auto makers?

 

[Rich Parsons]

Rich,

Good info!

I had a couple of ideas about the current Toyota deal.

1. They are going to recall appx 2.3 million vehicle's in North
America. 2,300,000 x .5 (appx time it takes to repair) x $100.00 (guess on average market labor per hour sold= 115,000,000 that will be divided among all the dealers in North America. According to Wikipedia there are currently 1447 dealers in north America. This Nets to about $80,000.00 in additional revenues per dealership. How about that for stimulating the economy.

2. If most automobile manufactures in US are owned/backed by the government, then the more hype directed at Toyota the better for the US auto makers?

1) Yes it could be stimulus to certain part fo the economy, but it also could be a total negative for sales for Toyota or for all automobile maunfacturers. We have to wait and see, how the public and the customers react.

2)
a) GM is mostly owned by the Federal government, and partially by the Canadian Federal Government, and the Ontario Government. The federal Government trade loans for percent ownership as did the the other two governments.

GM has made a loan payment in December and the CEO has stated numerous times in the press that GM plans on paying back the rest of the outstanding loans with a target of June of this year which is way ahead of the scheduled payment plans.

The Federal government would have to look at when GM would go public and offer an IPO to look at regaining the rest of their monies back. On the short side it would seem like it would be beneficial. But Ford and other stocks have not done more then follow market trends where Toyota has taken a hit. So it seems to be a short term negative on stock price for Toyota.

As to the US Federal government, it was not Congress but the previous President and the current sitting President that authorizes the use of TARP monies for loans. Congress did get upset with the North American Automakers and are still not really thrilled with them. As they issue press reports that they have lost monies on the bail out of the Automakers and the Banks. Note they list the Automakers first, so people have a target. But as stated, they will get all loan monies back that are still loans and have the chance to make money on the share of the company they own. Also it is Congress that is looking into the Toyota as well as NHTSA (* which is their job *) and not the President or previous President who were the ones who authorized the monies.

b) Chrysler also had some loans and some other parts of the deal with the Fiat buyout. I do not know the details as well as other than a tax payer it does not directly effect me.

c) Ford did not take any monies from the US Federal Government, they did leverage all the assests of the Ford company and the Logo as well as many assets of the Ford family. So while they are in debt up to their necks they owe nothing to the Feds.

d) Yes, I work for GM and I am presenting data in the media. Why? I constantly hear about the perfection of Toyota and no one believes me when I say otherwise. Hear are reports for over a decade that there has been problems. I wish no one would have ever gotten hurt. I wish that no one would have ever gotten into an accident. But, I am presenting data from respectable news agencies to show that Toyota is not perfect and I can offer my insights into why they are catching more problems now.
i) Total Complexity and number of variations of vehicles.
ii) Total Volume, there is a saying that with lots of volume the costs go down, but this is not always true. Many times the volume has an efficiency level and if it crosses a threshold new lines and new tooling is required and now the total cost actually goes up.
iii) As stated before CARB and other government agencies have given them a pass or concentrated on the "larger" North American Manufacturers even when those same Larger sales companies may not have been the largest volumes in their state. While it does not excuse anyone from breaking a legislational requirement, perception is that some are better than others, but if only a certain group is inspected for something and the other group is not inspected. Then the perception is that one is better than the other, when one could be worse than the other but if never inspected how can they be caught. Same inspection and same treatment is all I would ask.
iv) Japanese companies have some special benefits, in Japan one can not own a vehicle over 5 years old (* Caveat on US Military bases this rule is exempt *). They also have import taxes on imports. If we talked about equality, they should have no import taxes or we should tax them. Which is actually why they built plants in the US in the first place. To avoid these duties as in the late 80's and early 90's there were some on trucks.
If the US market had to buy a new car every five years and the other companies had duties that made them non cost effective then the US manufacturers would be sitting pretty. I believe the US was number one and Japan was in the top three. China in 2009 claimed the number one spot. But still to close out a market from competitors and then claim those companies that have the protection as being stronger is just not knowing the truth of the situation.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Per; http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20100205/us_nm/us_toyota_recall_customers

Toyota dealers court customers to soften recall

By Tim Gaynor Tim Gaynor – Fri Feb 5, 8:02 am ET
PHOENIX (Reuters) – Toyota dealers across the United States began repairs of defective gas pedals on Thursday, hoping that extended hours, free oil changes and complementary rental cars can help restore the automaker's tarnished reputation with customers.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Per: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100205/ap_on_bi_ge/toyota_recall

Toyota chief apologizes for global recalls

By YURI KAGEYAMA, AP Business Writer Yuri Kageyama, Ap Business Writer – 20 mins ago
TOKYO – Toyota's president apologized Friday for the massive global recalls over sticking gas pedals as the automaker scrambles to repair a damaged reputation and sliding sales.

But Akio Toyoda, appointed to the top job at Toyota Motor Corp. last June, said the company is still deciding what steps to take to fix brake problems in the popular Prius gas-electric hybrid.

Speaking at a hastily announced news conference that lasted an hour, a stern-looking Toyoda promised to beef up quality control.

Toyoda, 53, said the company is setting up a special committee he would head himself.

It would review internal checks, go over consumer complaints and listen to outside experts to come up with a solution to the widening quality problems.

"I offer my apologies for the worries," he said. "Many customers are wondering whether their cars are OK."

Masaaki Sato, an auto industry expert who has written books on Toyota and its Japanese rival Honda, said Friday's appearance was the company's last chance to keep the situation from worsening.

"He should have come out a week ago," Sato said of Toyoda during an appearance on a popular late night news program following the press conference. "After all the foot dragging, he was pushed into a corner."
Sato also criticized Toyoda for having to be prodded into action in the U.S. by Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood, who called the Toyota president for talks.

"The issue is a huge problem in the U.S., far more serious than you might think," Sato said. "Those who are driving Toyota cars must be worried, and as Toyota CEO he has a responsibility to address their concerns and provide an explanation to the U.S. government."

There is also top level government concern in Japan about Toyota's quality fiasco.

Transport Minister Seiji Maehara has urged Toyota to consider a recall for the Prius brake problem. The transport ministry oversees recalls and other auto regulation.

Foreign Minister Katsuya Okada expressed concern about the impact of the gas pedal recalls on Japan-US economic ties.

This shows the Japanese government no just the US governement is concerned and investigation the situation.

and yes it does effect Lexus as well

Toyota is also investigating possible brake problems with its luxury Lexus hybrid and the Sai compact sedan, both of which use the same brake system as the Prius. Toyota has not received any complaints about the Lexus HS250h and the probe is to ensure safety, it has said. The Sai is not sold outside Japan.

Toyota did not have a fix for the problem at the time, and it is relatively unusual to announce a recall without a plan for a remedy. Toyota did not come out with a fix for more than a week, further frustrating customers. It also suspended sales and production on eight models in the U.S.
"It would have become even harder to win back the trust of customers, and the damage to the Toyota brand would have been greater," Sasaki said solemnly. "It was hard but in hindsight I am grateful to Mr. LaHood."

So Secretary LaHood is now thanked for his actions.

 

[KELLYG]

Rich,

I like yourself have worked or am working in the Automotive industry. I know that Toyota's are not perfect-nor are they as perfect as they commonly perceived-even before the current bout of recalls. I understand that, basically speaking, all cars are machines made-operated-designed and repaired by men. Any time men and machine get together anything can happen!

 

[Rich Parsons]

Rich,

I like yourself have worked or am working in the Automotive industry. I know that Toyota's are not perfect-nor are they as perfect as they commonly perceived-even before the current bout of recalls. I understand that, basically speaking, all cars are machines made-operated-designed and repaired by men. Any time men and machine get together anything can happen!

Kelly I know my diatribe may have seen personal I did not mean it such. I meant it as another chance to educate the general population. That it is not an even playing field the inspections are not the same, the expectations are not the same, and the media is biased. For many years Wards would place a push rod from GM in the top ten engines for design and or quality, but all the writers would only comment that GM did not have a DOHC or did not have a DOHC on the list. Comments like 19th century technology still being used, unable to update to new technology.

To me I find it kind of refreshing to see comments such as Did Toyota use enough Security systems?

But, the reports I am getting out of Japan are not so good. The general population believes that GM started negative rumors to effect their their beloved Toyota's stock. Then they extended it to the Federal Government who owns the largest share of GM now wants all other companies to fail. Comments and reports like this make me a little upset, as the Japanese have protected their companies and made it impossible to have competition.

So, with reports of the Japanese government looking into it and their Ministers thanking our Secretaries and asking for an investigation is refreshing.

I did not make the comment to upset you nor to anger you. It was not my intent.

Thank you for your comments.

 

[FieldDiscipline]

They were discussing this on the radio the other day, and all these people were phoning in with their advice for when it happened. Some really dangerous ideas amongst them. If you take the key out in a panic, in the fast lane of a motorway and the steering lock comes on you've got an even bigger problem.

 

[Rich Parsons]

They were discussing this on the radio the other day, and all these people were phoning in with their advice for when it happened. Some really dangerous ideas amongst them. If you take the key out in a panic, in the fast lane of a motorway and the steering lock comes on you've got an even bigger problem.

Which is why the Offical Toyota release that was in one of the articles linked in stated to turn the engine off but not to remove the key.