Top Self Defense

[bribrius]

Well we are talking about different things. You are talking about a fight, mutual combat. You know that there is about to be trouble.

I am talking about a person just minding their own business walking along and bam out of nowhere they get mugged or jumped from behind. You don't expect it nor do you see it coming.

Now if you can't take the first hit then you are in trouble.

gotta agree here. Most of the time the first hit wins the fight.

If they hit you with anything hard like a pipe you may not be taking the hit anyway however.

 

[dancingalone]

Can anyone tell me why some instructors teach that a downward block is a block against a roundhouse kick in full extension? My arm vs the shin of someone that knows how to throw a roundhouse? I really don't think I'm on the good end of that exchange.

Bad instruction and transmission of information over the years from the Chinese to the Okinawans to the Japanese to the Koreans and now to Americans.

A 'down block' with your arm is rarely supposed to be a block at all. Lowering your guard to absorb a shot on your arm is fundamentally unsound after all - especially since you know a second strike is on the way and you're now in close enough range to where your chances of blocking the second shot is greatly lessened.

If the lesson we take away from a one step or kata/hyung seems foolish, that's the time to step back and rethink what we are doing. The translation of 'gedan barai' or 'down block' from Japanese is more accurately 'lower level sweep'. This gives a better hint into the usages of the 'down block' found in systems such as Okinawan karate.

 

[bribrius]

Bad instruction and transmission of information over the years from the Chinese to the Okinawans to the Japanese to the Koreans and now to Americans.

A 'down block' with your arm is rarely supposed to be a block at all. Lowering your guard to absorb a shot on your arm is fundamentally unsound after all - especially since you know a second strike is on the way and you're now in close enough range to where your chances of blocking the second shot is greatly lessened.

If the lesson we take away from a one step or kata/hyung seems foolish, that's the time to step back and rethink what we are doing. The translation of 'gedan barai' or 'down block' from Japanese is more accurately 'lower level sweep'. This gives a better hint into the usages of the 'down block' found in systems such as Okinawan karate.

I agree with you on the down block.

i was actually taught to step in as well though. I see round houses as opportunity.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Well we are talking about different things. You are talking about a fight, mutual combat. You know that there is about to be trouble.

I am talking about a person just minding their own business walking along and bam out of nowhere they get mugged or jumped from behind. You don't expect it nor do you see it coming.

Now if you can't take the first hit then you are in trouble.

If you are in a fair fight, then things have already gone horribly wrong. It should not be a fight, or mutual.

You can certianly be the victim of a stealth attack. I wish there were some statistics out here, but I would venture to say that of thepercentage of attacks, not seeing anything before the first blow was felt is rare. Unexpected yes. Totaly unaware of the attacker- No.
Awareness and avoidance should be the front lines of self defense.

Certainly an advantage of sparring is having some contact experience. Nothing will condition you to recieve a stealth attack with a baseball bat to the head.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Can anyone tell me why some instructors teach that a downward block is a block against a roundhouse kick in full extension? My arm vs the shin of someone that knows how to throw a roundhouse? I really don't think I'm on the good end of that exchange.

First we need to define "Downward Block".

For instance, I think in the Chang Hon system it would be referrred to as "Low Outer forearm Block." The stated purpose is to protect / defend the same side lower abdomen, and it is shown to be used against a straight line attack. I think this is what you refer to as opposed to a Chang Hon downward Block of which there are several such as Outer forearm, Alternate palm and twin Palm which would be used against a linear attack to the Chest or Solar Plexus.

So, I agree with Dancingalone. Bad Ju Ju vis a vis roundhouse kick defense.

Now, getting into the "Alternate Applications" theory opens up a whole other area. Rick Clark has a book "75 applications for the Down Block"

 

[bluewaveschool]

Bad instruction and transmission of information over the years from the Chinese to the Okinawans to the Japanese to the Koreans and now to Americans.

A 'down block' with your arm is rarely supposed to be a block at all. Lowering your guard to absorb a shot on your arm is fundamentally unsound after all - especially since you know a second strike is on the way and you're now in close enough range to where your chances of blocking the second shot is greatly lessened.

If the lesson we take away from a one step or kata/hyung seems foolish, that's the time to step back and rethink what we are doing. The translation of 'gedan barai' or 'down block' from Japanese is more accurately 'lower level sweep'. This gives a better hint into the usages of the 'down block' found in systems such as Okinawan karate.

Exactly the reason I tossed it straight out the window. It doesn't remotely work, and now I have a broken lead arm dangling down and my face wide open.

 

[Hudson69]

1. Defense against multiple attackers
2. Defense against an attacker with a gun
3. Defense against an attacker with a knife
4. Defense against an attacker with a club
5. Defense against a choke
6. How to defend yourself from on the ground
7. How to escape from being grabbed from behind

The last couple are not classifed as being able to defend against, but I know if I were looking for or potentially setting up a self defense class I would consider.

8. How to use common items to defend yourself with
9. Basic pressure point training
10. Situational awareness.

These are really good based off of what is taught to LEO's but I might change #8 to "How to defend against going to the ground." which jives with #6.

Good list though.

 

[hungryninja]

Working on new material so thought I would pick your brains. Wondering what you list as the top 10 things you think your students should be able to defend against on the street?

chokes, headlocks, bear hugs, punches, kicks, ground, sticks, knives, handguns, rifles/long guns

 

[Dirty Dog]

If you are in a fair fight, then things have already gone horribly wrong. It should not be a fight, or mutual.

You can certianly be the victim of a stealth attack. I wish there were some statistics out here, but I would venture to say that of thepercentage of attacks, not seeing anything before the first blow was felt is rare. Unexpected yes. Totaly unaware of the attacker- No.
Awareness and avoidance should be the front lines of self defense.

quote]

No statistics available, but after 30 years in EMS I can say that anecdotal evidence certainly supports your thinking. I can't count how many people I've patched up in the ER. The story is nearly always "I was walking along, minding my own business, when all of a sudden from out of nowhere..." but when I ask the PD what they know, there's rarely a real sneak attack. The most common unexpected attack is a thrown bottle that hits the wrong person.

 

[ATC]

If you are in a fair fight, then things have already gone horribly wrong. It should not be a fight, or mutual.

You can certianly be the victim of a stealth attack. I wish there were some statistics out here, but I would venture to say that of thepercentage of attacks, not seeing anything before the first blow was felt is rare. Unexpected yes. Totaly unaware of the attacker- No.
Awareness and avoidance should be the front lines of self defense.

Certainly an advantage of sparring is having some contact experience. Nothing will condition you to recieve a stealth attack with a baseball bat to the head.

Well I never said you would be attacked with baseball bat, but since you mentioned it I have seen such attack and the the guy that got hit took the first one and perceeded to beat the crap out of the guy that hit him with the bat.

I cracked a guy head open with a pair of nunchaku's and still had to fight tooth and nail with the guy before he took off running. The police picked him up half a mile way from where we started and he had to be sent to the hospital for stitches. So yes you can take the first hit even from a bat or stick that was unseen.

But again you miss the point. The point is you can't see everything. You could be bending over to tie your shoe in the best of places and then wham!!! punched and kicked down for you wallet just that fast. You will not always see it coming. Most thugs (cowards) operate this way.

 

[terryl965]

Top notch Self Defense is when you are able to walk run or get the hell out of the stupid stituation you put yourself in......:erg:

 

[Earl Weiss]

But again you miss the point. The point is you can't see everything. You could be bending over to tie your shoe in the best of places and then wham!!! punched and kicked down for you wallet just that fast. You will not always see it coming. Most thugs (cowards) operate this way.

Hmmm, did I miss the point? Let's see. The original post:

"Working on new material so thought I would pick your brains. Wondering what you list as the top 10 things you think your students should be able to defend against on the street? "

Your point? Defend against what you never see coming. Somehow train to take punishment from what you never see coming.

My point. Don't waste your time. It's not in the top ten. Not even close. Absorbing punishment is something you make the other guy do.
whatever punishment you happen to unfortuneately absorb in good sparring is enough.

You want to spend your time and energy as well as your students absorbing punishemnt? Have at it.

 

[ATC]

Hmmm, did I miss the point? Let's see. The original post:

"Working on new material so thought I would pick your brains. Wondering what you list as the top 10 things you think your students should be able to defend against on the street? "

Your point? Defend against what you never see coming. Somehow train to take punishment from what you never see coming.

My point. Don't waste your time. It's not in the top ten. Not even close. Absorbing punishment is something you make the other guy do.
whatever punishment you happen to unfortuneately absorb in good sparring is enough.

You want to spend your time and energy as well as your students absorbing punishemnt? Have at it.

I never said train to absorb punishment. I said I tell my students that they better be able to take the first hit.

Then I said test students by unexpectedly attacking them at non training moments to see how they react or don't react.

Most people waste time pretending to defend against predetermined attacks with a partner, knowing that the attack is coming, and the partner knowing what defense is coming. That crap aint going to get it done.

There was a 20/20 show done some years ago where they followed some women and some men that took MA SD classes that thought they were ready for anything. They unknowingly setup situation for these people and everyone failed when they walked into there traps.

All the women just froze when grab when walking to their cars and got pull away. The men also froze as well. These were all unseen attacks or abduction type attempts.

You are fooling yourself if you thing you can be ready and see all attacks coming. Anyone can prepare for what they see coming.

 

[bluewaveschool]

I hate chest and head gear for the very reason of not being able to actually feel getting hit. I know I can take the first punch. How? I've been smacked around the Dojang. Punched in the head (still gloves on), body, tackled, thrown and hit so hard in the chest with a sliding sidekick so hard I went off my feet about about 2-3 feet backwards. Can't hit the under 18s, or have them not wear headgear, like that, but the adults do need to have an inkling of what it feels like. I had one instructor very skilled in pressure points. He thought it was important for us all to know what it felt like to be knocked out. Not a whole lot of fun, that's how it feels.

 

[dancingalone]

Can't hit the under 18s, or have them not wear headgear, like that, but the adults do need to have an inkling of what it feels like.

I agree completely. None of our training matters, if we fall to pieces the first time we get clocked. We can't build up resistance to being knocked out, but we can gradually increase our tolerance for pain, adversity, and yes the unhelpful physiological effects of fear and adrenalin. Getting tagged hard from time to time during training is a good thing.

 

[Earl Weiss]

You are fooling yourself if you thing you can be ready and see all attacks coming. .

Who said that? Anytime you couch an argument in absolutes you create a truism.

The reality is that the largest percentage will not b stealth attacks.

Now, as a training system for adrenal stress conditioning which I do believe in and even the unforseen attack, I really liked my RMCAT experience.


This is at a training camp in the Rocky mountains with padded assailant attackers. Some exercises have you defending against one atttacker and sudddenly a second joins in.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I never said train to absorb punishment. I said I tell my students that they better be able to take the first hit.

.

I tell mine that if they take the first hit things have already gone bad.

I tell them they should make the other guy take the first hit.

I also tell them how to set the seen for legal consequences.

 

[ATC]

I tell mine that if they take the first hit things have already gone bad.

I tell them they should make the other guy take the first hit.

I also tell them how to set the seen for legal consequences.

Again we seem to be on different pages. No one wants to just stand there and get hit for the sake of getting hit, this is obvious. But again not all situation will be where you can alway see trouble or will always be the first one to hit. If you can not take a hit your are in trouble. If you see things getting bad and can be the one to defend, move and counter or even hit first great. But if not then what? I understand your points, but not understanding that you may be hit without warning is just nieve. God help those that get hit and hit hard without knowing or expecting how that feels or how you will react when it happens.

Conflict is unpredictable. When it happens you should be prepared for as much and as many things as possible. Getting hit is one of those things. Getting hit even when ready is a reality as well as getting hit from behind or without warning or seeing it coming. If you have never been really hit then you are not fully prepared.

All I am doing is making statements to what I believe. If you don't thing body conditioning is a necessity that is fine. We are all different and we all have different ideas. That's what makes life so exciting. :asian:

 

[bribrius]

Again we seem to be on different pages. No one wants to just stand there and get hit for the sake of getting hit, this is obvious. But again not all situation will be where you can alway see trouble or will always be the first one to hit. If you can not take a hit your are in trouble. If you see things getting bad and can be the one to defend, move and counter or even hit first great. But if not then what? I understand your points, but not understanding that you may be hit without warning is just nieve. God help those that get hit and hit hard without knowing or expecting how that feels or how you will react when it happens.

Conflict is unpredictable. When it happens you should be prepared for as much and as many things as possible. Getting hit is one of those things. Getting hit even when ready is a reality as well as getting hit from behind or without warning or seeing it coming. If you have never been really hit then you are not fully prepared.

All I am doing is making statements to what I believe. If you don't thing body conditioning is a necessity that is fine. We are all different and we all have different ideas. That's what makes life so exciting. :asian:

that is kind of the problem though. Depending on where you are hit and what with you may not be reacting anyway.. I was struck in the temple once. Didn't even see it coming. Brought me to my knees in a daze. I wasn't reacting at all. Friend tested my awareness the other day. Walked up and did a strike to my throat. Forget reaction time. Rw i would have been done.

But if they hit you in a place you can take it, well in that case, i agree with you. Broken nose, been there. No big deal. arms, chest, legs (but if they take you down without warning and start kicking you in the head you might have issues), even head in some cases. Some hits you just aren't coming back from in time to react and you aren't "taking them". If you are suggesting someone needs to not freak out if they are struck or freeze. Well then i agree with you. Yeah, being hit gets you used to it. No denying that...

The reason the first person to hit usually wins a fight is the shock factor and reaction time. By the time you are reacting you are being hit. You react to being struck the first they are already on the second. You are one move behind starting from a possible surprise or shock factor. While you are processing what is going on in that first second or two they are striking you.

If you know it is coming, well that sure helps.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Again we seem to be on different pages. No one wants to just stand there and get hit for the sake of getting hit, this is obvious. But again not all situation will be where you can alway see trouble or will always be the first one to hit. If you can not take a hit your are in trouble.. :asian:

Our pages may not be so different. I think sparring is invaluable for learning that just because you got hit and it hurts does not stop you from defending yourself. whether or not you can "Take the first shot", as pointed out above depends on the shot.

Similarly invaluable is adrenal stress conditioning. I highly reccomend RMCAT for those that can go there. There are some other programs which do similar things. "fast Defense" may do it to soemextent. Bill Kipp taught at RMCAT from time to time, I am just not sure how much of the same he employs.