Too deadly for competition rant

[jks9199]

I just tripped, once again, over the classic phrase "x-art is too deadly for competition" or one of it's innumerable variants ("you can't compete with y because it's only made for killing", etc.).

I HATE this phrase! And I hate the concept behind it, too.

This is the thing... ANY style should (in theory, 'cause I know some now are designed for sport) have techniques that are too dangerous to use in mere competition -- but any style should also be usable at a less-lethal level. Instead of punching to the throat, you punch the chest. Instead of using a throw to dump the guy on his head, you drop him more on his back.

Sure, you lose many of the techniques in some styles -- but you can still use others. And, absolutely, some styles aren't going to mesh with every competition. A striking style isn't going to do well in a grappling tournament, any more than a wrestler will do well in a boxing match. And there's no guarantee that you'll win, even in a competition environment that's well suited to your style.

But to claim that a particular style is "too deadly" to use in competition suggests either that you don't think you can really use it -- or that you just don't want to take the chance or that you don't think you have the control to obey the rules. After all, if the style was really too deadly to use -- how would you practice?! You'd kill all your training partners!

 

[championmarius]

The moment someone utters those words, I put as much distance between myself and them as possible. If they are so uber powerful that they can't "horse" around, then they are a ticking time bomb, ready to esssplode in a shower or "teh rainbow roxxorz". Fools.

If you can't horse around without gouging eyes or fish-hooking, or "monkey grabs the peach" type stuff, you probably don't have the security clearance from the NMNA (national Mall Ninja Association) to be disclosing the uber deadly secret techniques of your art.

Just as bad are the guys who will horse around, and then cry about how they would have beaten you if they could do those things...think...If you could do them, I could do them, if I bested you without them, would it really be that different?

I agree, its often heard from the lips of the mall ninja types, who have a 10th degree rainbow belt in VHS-foo, or folks who lack the intestinal fortitude to put their face where their money is.

 

[championmarius]

Just to add, I do train the more lethal techniques, but I also maintain a firm foundation of less lethal basics, because not every SD scenario justifies lethal force.
Also in the tool box is "sport friendly" stuff too. like the spinning stuff, and a big chunk of the judo/jujitsu. Stuff thats fun to mess around with, just not terribly practical for SD...
If you can't train "high speed" SD without the "low speed" stuff, then whats the point? Then everything starts to look like a nail...

 

[Tez3]

I just tripped, once again, over the classic phrase "x-art is too deadly for competition" or one of it's innumerable variants ("you can't compete with y because it's only made for killing", etc.).

I HATE this phrase! And I hate the concept behind it, too.

This is the thing... ANY style should (in theory, 'cause I know some now are designed for sport) have techniques that are too dangerous to use in mere competition -- but any style should also be usable at a less-lethal level. Instead of punching to the throat, you punch the chest. Instead of using a throw to dump the guy on his head, you drop him more on his back.

Sure, you lose many of the techniques in some styles -- but you can still use others. And, absolutely, some styles aren't going to mesh with every competition. A striking style isn't going to do well in a grappling tournament, any more than a wrestler will do well in a boxing match. And there's no guarantee that you'll win, even in a competition environment that's well suited to your style.

But to claim that a particular style is "too deadly" to use in competition suggests either that you don't think you can really use it -- or that you just don't want to take the chance or that you don't think you have the control to obey the rules. After all, if the style was really too deadly to use -- how would you practice?! You'd kill all your training partners!

You say that like it's a bad thing! LOL!

 

[arnisador]

No style is too deadly for competition--some specific techniques are unsafe for competition.

But if so...how can you know you can pull them off when needed anyway?

 

[terryl965]

I beg to differ here, there are such styles that are too deadly for competition. I can think of a few right away, the ever lasting farting style right after eating a truck load of beans :mrtoilet:. We also have the belching style of to much alcohol that will kill any man or woman.:barf:

 

[geezer]

I just tripped, once again, over the classic phrase "x-art is too deadly for competition" or one of it's innumerable variants ("you can't compete with y because it's only made for killing", etc.).

I HATE this phrase! And I hate the concept behind it, too.

This is the thing... ANY style should (in theory, 'cause I know some now are designed for sport) have techniques that are too dangerous to use in mere competition -- but any style should also be usable at a less-lethal level. Instead of punching to the throat, you punch the chest. Instead of using a throw to dump the guy on his head, you drop him more on his back...

I personally do not see competition as especially helpful in developing as a martial artist. I do see sparring, both within a style and with other styles as essential.

Let me clarify. I have nothing against competitions. They can be exciting for the participants and for the spectators, and they do promote interest in the martial arts. On the other hand, depending on the rules, they can lead to a sport version of the style that is more about winning by those rules than being an authentic combat art. Even so, there is no reason why a person can't do both sport and combat versions, and do them very well.

As for myself, I see more informal sparring as a better way to improve my skills. You can, by agreement, test out a greater variety of techniques, and because you aren't fighting for a trophy or purse, you can step back and discuss what worked, what didn't, and what you need to change. And, with any luck, at the end of the day, you are all still friends.

 

[seasoned]

I just tripped, once again, over the classic phrase "x-art is too deadly for competition" or one of it's innumerable variants ("you can't compete with y because it's only made for killing", etc.).

I HATE this phrase! And I hate the concept behind it, too.

This is the thing... ANY style should (in theory, 'cause I know some now are designed for sport) have techniques that are too dangerous to use in mere competition -- but any style should also be usable at a less-lethal level. Instead of punching to the throat, you punch the chest. Instead of using a throw to dump the guy on his head, you drop him more on his back.

Sure, you lose many of the techniques in some styles -- but you can still use others. And, absolutely, some styles aren't going to mesh with every competition. A striking style isn't going to do well in a grappling tournament, any more than a wrestler will do well in a boxing match. And there's no guarantee that you'll win, even in a competition environment that's well suited to your style.

But to claim that a particular style is "too deadly" to use in competition suggests either that you don't think you can really use it -- or that you just don't want to take the chance or that you don't think you have the control to obey the rules. After all, if the style was really too deadly to use -- how would you practice?! You'd kill all your training partners!

I to feel that this “to deadly to use, unless I am killing someone, is absurd”. It definitely puts sparring into the category of another training tool, where it should be. Sparring and tournaments are great tools for timing distancing, and practicing blocks. Also considering the mere fact in some cases you are sparring, and facing someone you don’t even know. Our kata and 2 partner drills are where we can do all that killing stuff, under control of course. J

 

[Guardian]

It takes all kinds to make the world go round. I agree I distance myself also. Love the comments Mall Ninjas LOL.

 

[jks9199]

I personally do not see competition as especially helpful in developing as a martial artist. I do see sparring, both within a style and with other styles as essential.

Let me clarify. I have nothing against competitions. They can be exciting for the participants and for the spectators, and they do promote interest in the martial arts. On the other hand, depending on the rules, they can lead to a sport version of the style that is more about winning by those rules than being an authentic combat art. Even so, there is no reason why a person can't do both sport and combat versions, and do them very well.

As for myself, I see more informal sparring as a better way to improve my skills. You can, by agreement, test out a greater variety of techniques, and because you aren't fighting for a trophy or purse, you can step back and discuss what worked, what didn't, and what you need to change. And, with any luck, at the end of the day, you are all still friends.

I don't disagree.

Competition is fine and can be fun, whether it's a formal tournament (open or closed), or just a "bragging rights" meet-up between two nearby schools or clubs. But if you put too much emphasis on competition, then you're doing a competitive sport, not what I think of as martial arts. (If that makes any sense outside my own head.) Or maybe a better phrasing would be simply to leave it at if you put too much emphasis on the competition, then all you're doing is a competitive sport.

Just getting together with buddies can be great -- but you don't always get a lot of variety which you can in a competition. And you might get some different psychological pressures in a competition, too.

I'm not at all suggesting that tournament competition is the ultimate goal of training, either!

Regarding the question of whether you can actually do the stuff that is too dangerous for competition, the best I can do is note, again, that sparring -- in any format -- is just one way to practice the learned techniques. You can always work those more dangerous techniques at slower speeds with a partner, or on appropriate pads or bags to practice the force, and so on.

To me -- competition is simply another way to test yourself and your training under certain pressures.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I just tripped, once again, over the classic phrase "x-art is too deadly for competition" or one of it's innumerable variants ("you can't compete with y because it's only made for killing", etc.).

I HATE this phrase! And I hate the concept behind it, too.

This is the thing... ANY style should (in theory, 'cause I know some now are designed for sport) have techniques that are too dangerous to use in mere competition -- but any style should also be usable at a less-lethal level. Instead of punching to the throat, you punch the chest. Instead of using a throw to dump the guy on his head, you drop him more on his back.

Sure, you lose many of the techniques in some styles -- but you can still use others. And, absolutely, some styles aren't going to mesh with every competition. A striking style isn't going to do well in a grappling tournament, any more than a wrestler will do well in a boxing match. And there's no guarantee that you'll win, even in a competition environment that's well suited to your style.

But to claim that a particular style is "too deadly" to use in competition suggests either that you don't think you can really use it -- or that you just don't want to take the chance or that you don't think you have the control to obey the rules. After all, if the style was really too deadly to use -- how would you practice?! You'd kill all your training partners!

There are 2 general version of Sanda/Sanshou depending on how you classify it. Sport and non sport but there are Sport, Civilian, and Police/Military versions

But I will go with Police/Military Sanda and Sports Sanda.

Sports Sanda is made for fighting in the ring

Police/Military Sanda is obviously not, I will just go with non-sport from this point on.

A whole lot of Police in China fight in Sanda/Sanshou matches however they learn the rules and regs of the sports Sanda match and do not use a lot of what they train for their every day job. They are trained pretty heavily in non-sport Sanda for the job but that means greater emphasis on Qinna, Shuaijiao and of course weapons defense that you will not get in the ring version. But then how many times ina sporting match is your opponent going to pull a gun or a knife and I don’t really think you get any points for breaking your opponents knee so why bother training it for the ring. However watch a YouTube vid of one of Cung Le’s old Sanshou matches and you tell me if some of those take downs would feel real good if you were outside on hard ground.

Cung Le is Sports Sanda/Sanshou and I most certainly would never say anything that he does would not work outside the ring since it most certainly would. He however does not train as much Qinna or some of the strikes or the extent of Shuaijiao of non-sport Sanshou.

My Sanda sifu's very first statement to me was he knows nothing about the sports side of Sanda. Does that mean he lacks control to jump in the ring and stop himself from breaking someone’s knee? Well no.

What it means is he has no interest in the sport side of Sanda. And to be honest if someone came up to me today and said you have a choose Xue... fight Cung Le or your Sanda Sifu... I got to tell you I would be looking for a third choice called RUNNING. Frankly I have no desire to fight either, because I really don't want the beating and I am pretty sure my Health Insurance would not cover injuries one gets through stupidity.

Also just as a note the 2 really do not look all that similar;. Sports Sanshou has a specific fighting stance, non-sport sanshou does not. A fight, not in the ring, does not always give you time to take a stance so why bother

 

[MJS]

I just tripped, once again, over the classic phrase "x-art is too deadly for competition" or one of it's innumerable variants ("you can't compete with y because it's only made for killing", etc.).

I HATE this phrase! And I hate the concept behind it, too.

This is the thing... ANY style should (in theory, 'cause I know some now are designed for sport) have techniques that are too dangerous to use in mere competition -- but any style should also be usable at a less-lethal level. Instead of punching to the throat, you punch the chest. Instead of using a throw to dump the guy on his head, you drop him more on his back.

Sure, you lose many of the techniques in some styles -- but you can still use others. And, absolutely, some styles aren't going to mesh with every competition. A striking style isn't going to do well in a grappling tournament, any more than a wrestler will do well in a boxing match. And there's no guarantee that you'll win, even in a competition environment that's well suited to your style.

But to claim that a particular style is "too deadly" to use in competition suggests either that you don't think you can really use it -- or that you just don't want to take the chance or that you don't think you have the control to obey the rules. After all, if the style was really too deadly to use -- how would you practice?! You'd kill all your training partners!

Pretty much every style out there has techs. in it that can be deemed 'deadly' however, IMHO, while those techs. are certainly important, I personally do not feel that they should have to be used to win. I mean, if an eye gouge is going to be the only option, I think we should re-evaluate our training. For example...if someone were to say that the only way they could escape the mount position, I'd suggest they brush up on their ground game. If someone claims that the only way they can defend against a punch, is to break a knee or again, the eye gouge, I'd suggest they take another look at their training.

The goal of our training, should be to be able to adapt what we do, according to what is presented to us, as far as an attack goes. If all someone can go is those 'deadly' techs., then they'll most likely find themselves constantly in trouble for too much force.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

You have to find the right mix. You cannot go to far one way or to far the other way. All martial systems and practitioners need pressure testing. However if you go to far to the sport side then you reduce dramatically the martial side. In the end you have to find ways to pressure test your techniques against alive, breathing and thinking opponents. There are of course all kinds of ways to do this. You may not need to do it every training session but you definitely need to do it!

 

[Carol]

OK, I think I can do my Silat neck throws in a competition friendly manner. Can I demonstrate on y'all to prove it? :shrug:

In all seriousness, I think a lot depends on the application of the art. Personally I'm glad I trained in Silat in a system that was founded by a Red Beret from the Indonesian military whose primarily used his Silat in battlefield applications, rather than a system founded by someone with lottsa trophies that primarily used their Silat in a competition application. Doesn't mean that I think competition is bad...it just wasn't what I was looking for.

There are many techniques in Silat that are either not allowed in most competitions (ie: small joint manipulation) or are techniques that I just wouldn't do in competition, such as wrenching an opponents neck. As far as how we practice, Some types of throws are also practiced on cushy crash mats to minimize damage done from an accidental face plant. Many techniques are practiced safely because they are done at a much slower speed. That doesn't jive for a competitive environment. What am I gonna say to my opponent? "Slow down, or I won't be able to spike your neck on the ground in a responsible fashion?"

Unfortunately my work schedule didn't allow me to keep up my training for more than a year. Perhaps I don't know the competitive alternatives because I haven't asked for them. Perhaps with more training I will learn/devise safer alternatives to some of the techs I learned. But should I ever compete...there is quite a bit that I will not bring in to the ring until I have more maturity in the arts. I'd rather lose a match than accidentally hurt an opponent.

 

[Deaf Smith]

If the 'art' is to deadly to use in competition then it's to deadly for the street, for there will be times on the street you will have to techniques that are not designed to kill, but to control.

And it's a poor art that cannot handle that.

Deaf

 

[searcher]

I think that making the above listed statement is just like the guys that have come out of the military and say, "I would teach my kids myself, but the stuff I learned in the _ _ _ _(fill in branch) is made for killing.":barf: And then that si why they bring their kids to me for training. You know, because the stuff we teach is not capable of inflicting any damage on an unwilling opponent.:jediduel:

 

[jks9199]

A whole lot of Police in China fight in Sanda/Sanshou matches however they learn the rules and regs of the sports Sanda match and do not use a lot of what they train for their every day job. They are trained pretty heavily in non-sport Sanda for the job but that means greater emphasis on Qinna, Shuaijiao and of course weapons defense that you will not get in the ring version. But then how many times ina sporting match is your opponent going to pull a gun or a knife and I don’t really think you get any points for breaking your opponents knee so why bother training it for the ring. However watch a YouTube vid of one of Cung Le’s old Sanshou matches and you tell me if some of those take downs would feel real good if you were outside on hard ground.

That's the idea I'm talking about. They can use their training, modified for the rules of the ring. They may not use all of the same techniques, and it may look a little different -- but it should be recognizable at least to other Sanda practitioners.

My Sanda sifu's very first statement to me was he knows nothing about the sports side of Sanda. Does that mean he lacks control to jump in the ring and stop himself from breaking someone’s knee? Well no.

What it means is he has no interest in the sport side of Sanda. And to be honest if someone came up to me today and said you have a choose Xue... fight Cung Le or your Sanda Sifu... I got to tell you I would be looking for a third choice called RUNNING. Frankly I have no desire to fight either, because I really don't want the beating and I am pretty sure my Health Insurance would not cover injuries one gets through stupidity.

Also just as a note the 2 really do not look all that similar;. Sports Sanshou has a specific fighting stance, non-sport sanshou does not. A fight, not in the ring, does not always give you time to take a stance so why bother

That's what I'm getting at. Your sifu has no interest in it -- but doesn't say it can't be done that way. Just if you choose to do that, you'll have to modify your training and what you do to fit the rules of the ring.

And while they may not look the same at the start -- I hope that the application is recognizably from the same roots.

OK, I think I can do my Silat neck throws in a competition friendly manner. Can I demonstrate on y'all to prove it? :shrug:

In all seriousness, I think a lot depends on the application of the art. Personally I'm glad I trained in Silat in a system that was founded by a Red Beret from the Indonesian military whose primarily used his Silat in battlefield applications, rather than a system founded by someone with lottsa trophies that primarily used their Silat in a competition application. Doesn't mean that I think competition is bad...it just wasn't what I was looking for.

There are many techniques in Silat that are either not allowed in most competitions (ie: small joint manipulation) or are techniques that I just wouldn't do in competition, such as wrenching an opponents neck. As far as how we practice, Some types of throws are also practiced on cushy crash mats to minimize damage done from an accidental face plant. Many techniques are practiced safely because they are done at a much slower speed. That doesn't jive for a competitive environment. What am I gonna say to my opponent? "Slow down, or I won't be able to spike your neck on the ground in a responsible fashion?"

Unfortunately my work schedule didn't allow me to keep up my training for more than a year. Perhaps I don't know the competitive alternatives because I haven't asked for them. Perhaps with more training I will learn/devise safer alternatives to some of the techs I learned. But should I ever compete...there is quite a bit that I will not bring in to the ring until I have more maturity in the arts. I'd rather lose a match than accidentally hurt an opponent.

And I've never said you should or must compete -- just that the whole argument that any style is "too dangerous" as a whole for competition is silly. Many styles have some or even many techniques that wouldn't be appropriate for competition. That doesn't mean that there's no way to use those styles in a competitive environment. Maybe you can't use a neck throw... but there are other throws. I'll come back in just a moment to two issues that kind of come up here...

If the 'art' is to deadly to use in competition then it's to deadly for the street, for there will be times on the street you will have to techniques that are not designed to kill, but to control.

And it's a poor art that cannot handle that.

Deaf

Great point! And it helps me segue into one of the two things I mentioned above: philosophy or ethics. Some styles have an ethical or philosophical base that says don't compete. I think Aikido might be one, and probably krav maga might be another -- for different reasons. Some beliefs say that any violence, even "friendly violence" in competition is bad, and so styles from that ethical framework of course aren't likely to be used in competition.

Other styles don't want to dilute their training to allow competition. This isn't to say that they can't be used in a competitive environment, just that the instructors and leadership within the style don't want students modifying their training to fit competition rules.

The other issue I alluded to earlier is personal focus. You may not choose to focus your training for competition; I certainly don't! It doesn't mean that "my art is too deadly for competition", but that I don't want to work to engrain the practices for competition into my training. I keep my focus on harmful targets, on how to quickly and effectively control a situation... not how to score points. But that's MY focus; I've coached kickboxers and middle-style champions, too!

 

[Xue Sheng]

That's the idea I'm talking about. They can use their training, modified for the rules of the ring. They may not use all of the same techniques, and it may look a little different -- but it should be recognizable at least to other Sanda practitioners.

In a direct comparison yes and no. Like I said no ready stance in the Police/Military version but there is a ready stance for the sport version. But sure you will recognize some of the techniques the Shuaijiao you will see in the ring you will see in the non-sports version as well however some of the Shuaijiao you see in the non-sport you will not see in the ring it is simply against the rules. But then what is the likelihood of your opponent in the ring coming up behind you to choke you? Slim to none, and since training the defense for that is of no use in the ring, and would get you in trouble if you did it, then if you are pure sport you don't train it. But again I do not recommend that anyone go up behind anyone fighting sport Sanda and think that is their Achilles heel and try and choke them. If nothing else I would expect less of a panic response based on the ring fights and more of an "I think I need to break this guy ribs" response "with my elbow". The other version has defenses for this but again faking a punch to the guys head and then dropping your center to hit him in the groin is not going to help you much in the ring. However both train damn hard and both can be used for a fight outside of the ring and I have a lot of respect for both types of Sanda practitioners.

IMO It is not a my MA is to deadly for the ring it is my MA does not train for it. The version of sanda I train is doing mostly very hard palm strikes… put a pair of boxing gloves on me and it does not matter how hard I hit I am likely not going to be all that effective as someone who trains with them and I don’t know the rules so what the hell am I doing in the ring. But with that said I have thought for some time that if there was a sports Sanda/Sanshou school near me I would go train it for a bit. It may be different than my version but it has its merits as far as I am concerned and it would be, to me, just more tools in the tool box.

That's what I'm getting at. Your sifu has no interest in it -- but doesn't say it can't be done that way. Just if you choose to do that, you'll have to modify your training and what you do to fit the rules of the ring.

And while they may not look the same at the start -- I hope that the application is recognizably from the same roots.

All my sifu has really ever said about his flavor of Sanda is it is a real easy way to learn how to hurt someone really bad and it is no better than any other Chinese Martial art, it just takes less time to learn how to hurt someone so that is why he teaches very few people. And he has no interest of ever getting into a ring to fight. But he still enjoys watching a good sports sanshou match and sees the fighters as exactly that fighters and that translates to they know how to fight in or out of a ring.

Watch some of those Chinese police Sanshou matches on YouTube and when you see a good fighter you will see a lot of the Traditional Chinese Martial Arts approach to a fight and I am fairly certain that would work on the street as well.

I guess I am more along the lines of thinking OK so the guy can’t do a certain Qinna lock on me break a bone or 2, take me down and then get mean. But he hits like a truck and he can use what he has trained of Shuaijiao expertly… either way I’m hurting.

 

[Flying Crane]

There are some styles that DON'T WORK WELL in a competition venue. This is not the same thing as saying that they are too deadly for competition.

 

[Xue Sheng]

There are some styles that DON'T WORK WELL in a competition venue. This is not the same thing as saying that they are too deadly for competition.

True...unless of course you are talking Xuefu :EG: :uhyeah: