Tomorrow

[KamonGuy2]

csk: No one said you had to chisau hard, but that is part of the equation. Also, if you don't care and don't remember the results of the session, what are you learning? As far as who cares who hits who, I think the teacher, for one, would..

I'm not talking about remembering the results of the session
If I chi sao with someone for an hour and in that hour they hit me 40 times, I'll probably remember they got in me easily, but if I learnt something from that session I'd remember that more, and CARE about that more. In my private session with Kevin, I think I might have caught him once, but he still defended it adequately. Yet ask me in a year and I probably won't remember. However what he showed me with regards to structure alignment will stick with me forever
I teach wing chun, and if one of my students caught me (one did last week), I wouldn't get all pissy and beat him up. I would be proud that I have taught him so well that he is getting better than me!!

csk: Well, he's not only chisauing with you, is he? If a sifu has over 40-years' experience, and he looks bad in chisau \ gwohsau with shorter term students, off course it reflects badly on him. In other words, he's putting his reputation on the line. If you purport to teach boxing, and any tom, dick or harry can hit you easy, it doesn't look good on you, does it? ..

That is the nature of sparring. Muhammed Ali had a famous incident in his early days where an absolute nobody was sparring with him and caught him with a jab. Ali was extremely impressed and complimnted the guy, before beating seven bells of ***** out of him in the ring
When I spar in the gym, I don't know who I'm up against or what background they have. Certainly at Kamon, we have beginners who have done years in boxing and so sometimes surprise you. I enjoy that. I get more out of that than me just beating the crap out of someone. My favourite phrase - you can learn more from one defeat than a thousand victories

By comparing good chisau with tag, I seriously question your comprehension of chisau. Good chisau has power, structure, hitting, control of opponent's balance, etc., etc. It's nothing like tag, as you say. Tag is when you touch your opponent, and he touches you. Poor analogy. Even still, I would be concerned if my opponent could tag me at will, and I can't 'tag' them. If I were to lose at any game, I would remember it, because I try to learn from my mistakes. I try to analyse what I had done to let my opponent in..

Exactly and now you are getting into the right mindset. There is no win or lose in chi sao, but you are always working on improving your chi sao
If someone hits me, I look to work on closing those gaps or neutralising the attack. I don't preoccupy myself with trying to hit the guy

csk: since neither summo or chow yun fat actually practice wing chun, I think your wish is pretty difficult, don't you think?..[/quote]
What the hell was Sammo doing in Warriors Two then? lol
I know they aren't masters of wing chun, but they do know it, just as Jackie Chan does, as well as Jet Li
Hung is very good friends with several chun masters (Ip Chun and dare I say it Leung Ting... yeuch)

csk: Sure you would, but don't expect anyone near your size...

When my two friends went over, they met three guys who were a foot taller than them. Remember that we aren't alone in our desire to train with Ip Chun and people from all over the world usually stop by. Hence we could be playing with Americans or Russians (ie big guys!)etc

csk: The way I read this (above) is you feel chisau \ gwohsau isn't realistic as what you prefer to train in. Well, all techniques contained within chisau is as realistic as the practitioner is capable of applying. Off course, it's far easier just to kick \ box...

Yes but its like me saying I can spar in boxing which means I can fight well in the street. Sparring is just a drill to help work position
Whilst I don't like equating chi saoing to sparring, they are both tools martial arts use to improve you. That isn't how you should fight in the street etc
What we gain from chi sao is the ability to recognise gaps and changes in energy which is very useful in the real world, but you won't poon sao with someone who is attacking you

It's quite clear our understanding of chisau is worlds apart, but I'm sure with your experience of wing chun from a master, it's very obvious you are right.

I bow to your knowledge & experience, my big friend.

no no, i can be just as wrong as the next guy

 

[chisauking]

Kamon guy: I'm not talking about remembering the results of the session
If I chi sao with someone for an hour and in that hour they hit me 40 times, I'll probably remember they got in me easily, but if I learnt something from that session I'd remember that more, and CARE about that more. In my private session with Kevin, I think I might have caught him once, but he still defended it adequately. Yet ask me in a year and I probably won't remember. However what he showed me with regards to structure alignment will stick with me forever
I teach wing chun, and if one of my students caught me (one did last week), I wouldn't get all pissy and beat him up. I would be proud that I have taught him so well that he is getting better than me!!

csk: No one suggested counting every hit within chisau, but it's important to file away, mentally, the session so that one can review their performence afterwards, and it's isn't 'who cares' as you'd stated previously. Nor had I expressed in any way that one would seek vengence if they got hit within chisau.

kamon guy: That is the nature of sparring. Muhammed Ali had a famous incident in his early days where an absolute nobody was sparring with him and caught him with a jab. Ali was extremely impressed and complimnted the guy, before beating seven bells of ***** out of him in the ring
When I spar in the gym, I don't know who I'm up against or what background they have. Certainly at Kamon, we have beginners who have done years in boxing and so sometimes surprise you. I enjoy that. I get more out of that than me just beating the crap out of someone. My favourite phrase - you can learn more from one defeat than a thousand victories

csk: The analogy you chose to use doesn't reflect my point. No one is perfect and there will be times when they will be caught out, but if most of Ali's opponent could hit him at will, he wouldn't be the champion he was, would he? It's no different when a proffesional wing chun instructor steps up to chisau \ gwohsau with anyone and everyone. I'm sure not many students would follow him if most people can hit him easy. My orginal point was that not many wing chun teachers are willing to chisau with all, and if they did, they would be putting their reputations on the line. How many times do you see teachers \ instructors chisauing with other people besides their own students? When was the last time you'd attended a wing chun seminar and the instructor offered to chisau with everyone?

kamon guy: Exactly and now you are getting into the right mindset. There is no win or lose in chi sao, but you are always working on improving your chi sao
If someone hits me, I look to work on closing those gaps or neutralising the attack. I don't preoccupy myself with trying to hit the guy

csk: So, the results of the chisau is important, and not 'who cares' and 'don't remember' as you'd stated. If you don't remember, how would you know what to work on?

kamon guy: What the hell was Sammo doing in Warriors Two then? lol
I know they aren't masters of wing chun, but they do know it, just as Jackie Chan does, as well as Jet Li
Hung is very good friends with several chun masters (Ip Chun and dare I say it Leung Ting... yeuch)

csk: Summo is just the choreograher, and sometimes have a vested interest in the films. Just in case you don't know, it's just films -- make beliefs. Michelle yoeh was in wing chun, do you really think she knows wing chun? LOL. Frankie chan played the part of the emperor's son in prodigal son, do you really think Frankie knows gungfu? Jackie comes from Peking opra, and Li lin kit comes from wushu -- they know as much wing chun as my mum! Next you will be telling me Leo is a great wing chun practitioner because he was the ONLY wing chun person acting as consultant for the yip man film, lol.

kamon guy: Yes but its like me saying I can spar in boxing which means I can fight well in the street. Sparring is just a drill to help work position
Whilst I don't like equating chi saoing to sparring, they are both tools martial arts use to improve you. That isn't how you should fight in the street etc
What we gain from chi sao is the ability to recognise gaps and changes in energy which is very useful in the real world, but you won't poon sao with someone who is attacking you

csk: If you can spar in boxing, it's an indication you can use boxing techniques in a fight. If you can't spar in boxing, there's no chance you can use boxing in a fight. The same is true of chisau \ gwohsau in wing chun. In wing chun, chisau \ gwohsau is our method's way of guaging our skills. We can tell many things about ourselves and our opponent by their chisau skills. If we can apply the tools of wing chun within chisau \ gwohsau, then it's an indication that we can apply those tools in a fight. If you can't apply it even in chisau, then you have no chance of applying it in real time. Sure, people can still win you without displaying skills in their respective style. It's like a lot of wing chun people don't actually use wing chun in a real fight to defeat their opponent. It was just that they were stronger and bigger than their opponent.

In a good wing chun school, all the tools taught are applicable in a real fight. Yes, even poon-sau is used in a fight, if not, why learn it? Only someone that don't comprehend wing chun fully would say they learn things in class which has no fuctional application in a fight. In which case, it would be foolish to spend time on it.

 

[KamonGuy2]

csk: The analogy you chose to use doesn't reflect my point. No one is perfect and there will be times when they will be caught out, but if most of Ali's opponent could hit him at will, he wouldn't be the champion he was, would he? It's no different when a proffesional wing chun instructor steps up to chisau \ gwohsau with anyone and everyone. I'm sure not many students would follow him if most people can hit him easy. My orginal point was that not many wing chun teachers are willing to chisau with all, and if they did, they would be putting their reputations on the line. How many times do you see teachers \ instructors chisauing with other people besides their own students? When was the last time you'd attended a wing chun seminar and the instructor offered to chisau with everyone?.

Do you know the reason for that? It is because chi saoing with people from other schools is like asking a tiger to fight a shark. If the tiger fights his way on land, the shark will die. If the shark fights his way in the sea, the tiger will drown. Every chunner does chi sao differently, which is half the reason I'm going to Hong Kong. I'm not expecting to go there and start attacking Ip Chun etc - what is the point? I've been to numerous seminars where the instructor chi sao'd with as many people as they could
It is just a drill. It is not a sign of how good a fighter you are. I know loads of chunners who think that way, and in all honesty, I would destroy them in a fight, mainly because they think because they can chi sao well, they can fight well. It is not the same thing. It is just like saying, I can skip rope really well, so I can fight well. Chi sao is building your arms and footwork to be better, but realistically, chi sao covers around 20% of your fighting game
If I had played chi sao the way Kamon played chi sao, I would have caught Wan kam Leung out. That is not because he is rubbish, but merely because I am doing the drill on my terms. An example I will give was the Alan Orr chi sao competition that was held at SENI last year. Everyone was excited, but when they looked at the rules, people were horrified. You weren't allowed to step backwards and the rules limited down the normal movements that you came to expect in chi sao. It wasn't Orr's fault - he was trying to organise an event to get all the chunners together. The point was that it was on his terms, ie his school had practised not moving back. I don't think he intended it deliberately, but that is what happens in that kind of thing. People train chi sao differently. Some use gung lik, some use sung lik, others move more, others don't move their feet. If you play that persons game, then of course they will catch you. But that is why you need to start seeing chi sao as a drill rather than a way of fighting. The best (and most extreme) example is like me saying to you come and spar with me using punching/boxing and then me kicking you as well as punching. It just depends on the rules you have trained the drills in

csk: So, the results of the chisau is important, and not 'who cares' and 'don't remember' as you'd stated. If you don't remember, how would you know what to work on?.

I'm talking about not caring about being hit. If a person shows me something to work on (as Kevin Chan did with me), then I will remember that and go away and study. I am saying that I won't care or remember if a person hit me numerous times in one session. In Kamon people at my level always catch each other and there are only a handful of people that can really dominate (ie someone you can't catch at all). I'm not going to go away and cry just because they tore apart my chi sao.
Quite frankly I would get bored if I went round and no-one could get a hit in.

csk: Summo is just the choreograher, and sometimes have a vested interest in the films. Just in case you don't know, it's just films -- make beliefs. Michelle yoeh was in wing chun, do you really think she knows wing chun? LOL. Frankie chan played the part of the emperor's son in prodigal son, do you really think Frankie knows gungfu? Jackie comes from Peking opra, and Li lin kit comes from wushu -- they know as much wing chun as my mum! Next you will be telling me Leo is a great wing chun practitioner because he was the ONLY wing chun person acting as consultant for the yip man film, lol..

This made me chuckle. A lot. Are you serious with this? Donnie Yen spent hours with Ip Chun working on chi sao (there is a great clip of him on youtube doing it). Of course they aren't masters of wing chun - that would be like saying Keanu Reeves could teach kung fu. The point is that these guys DO train kung fu. Sammo was training a huge amount of wing chun for prodigal son. Of course he won't be as knowledgable as some of the wing chun masters around, but he will be able to chi sao and due to his skill in other systems he will be quick and powerful
As for Leo, I made my feelings clear on another thread where I was berated for calling him an idiot. Ironically, he is using his choreography as a basis for promoting his school ("come and train with the guy who choreographed 'Yip Man'"... No joke)

csk: If you can spar in boxing, it's an indication you can use boxing techniques in a fight. If you can't spar in boxing, there's no chance you can use boxing in a fight. The same is true of chisau \ gwohsau in wing chun. In wing chun, chisau \ gwohsau is our method's way of guaging our skills. We can tell many things about ourselves and our opponent by their chisau skills. If we can apply the tools of wing chun within chisau \ gwohsau, then it's an indication that we can apply those tools in a fight. If you can't apply it even in chisau, then you have no chance of applying it in real time. Sure, people can still win you without displaying skills in their respective style. It's like a lot of wing chun people don't actually use wing chun in a real fight to defeat their opponent. It was just that they were stronger and bigger than their opponent..

That is a great misconception. If you are a good sparrer, you are not necessarily going to be able to use boxing in a fight. Generally, if you box well, you can hold your own, but there are so many factors that limit you when you spar. This is the same argument as why cage fighting is not the same as street fighting. In a spar, you know who you are fighting, you are generally wearing protection, you have time to warm up, you have a set space to work within (which is usually flat and easy to move on). The list goes on

In a good wing chun school, all the tools taught are applicable in a real fight. Yes, even poon-sau is used in a fight, if not, why learn it? Only someone that don't comprehend wing chun fully would say they learn things in class which has no fuctional application in a fight. In which case, it would be foolish to spend time on it.

That is utter nonsense. You use sil nim tao in a fight? You use lok sao in a fight? You might take aspects of these drills into the fight arena, but you train these drills to build up your muscle memory, sensitivity and speed. If you truly believe that you will poon sao with someone in a streetfight, then good luck to you

 

[chisauking]

Kamon guy: If I had played chi sao the way Kamon played chi sao, I would have caught Wan kam Leung out.

csk: What can I say, Kamon's chisau must be at an extremely high level. Should have proved that to yourself when you had the chance.

Your skill & experience must be at a very high level. I won't emberrass myself anymore by saying things which shows my lack of understanding of wing chun.

I will try harder to improve on my wing chun before making a fool of myself by speaking to you, so you might not hear from me any time soon.

thanks for the lesson, big guy.

 

[KamonGuy2]

Kamon guy: If I had played chi sao the way Kamon played chi sao, I would have caught Wan kam Leung out.

csk: What can I say, Kamon's chisau must be at an extremely high level. Should have proved that to yourself when you had the chance.

Your skill & experience must be at a very high level. I won't emberrass myself anymore by saying things which shows my lack of understanding of wing chun.

I will try harder to improve on my wing chun before making a fool of myself by speaking to you, so you might not hear from me any time soon.

thanks for the lesson, big guy.

You missed the point entirely (and I think you are being a little sarcastic). It is not a question of being good. It is how you play the game. If I play a game of baseball with you (I love my analogies), and at the last minute say to you that you are not allowed to hit the ball with bats, you would be at a disadvantage because that is how you trained. Kamon has some very good chi sao players, but we do things very differently from many other schools (ie we collapse structure)

When I went to the seminar, I considered myself a 'guest' in Wan Kam Leungs 'house', so trying to catch him out or embarass him when he is there helping to show us what he does would not be very nice. He is a very good practitioner of wing chun and probably would have put a hole in my chest for my troubles. With 40 years experience, he knows a lot, but no-one is untouchable. People can be 'awkward' to train with and people get lucky hits in or have an on day

I went to another seminar with two of Ip Chun's oldest/best students. They were great guys and very old. When they chi sao'd with me however, they were stumped. Not because I am some kind of wing chun superman, but because they had not trained with someone like me before
Yet I didn't come away thinking 'oh they weren't good at all, they couldn't hit me in chi sao'. I came away impressed that they were still training at their age and on some of their theories

The second point you missed was that chi sao is not a win or lose drill. It is a tool used to enhance several parts of you. By hitting Wan Kam Leung, I would have just shown myself to be an absolute idiot

I love the beginning part of Yip Man when Yip spars with the kung fu master. The kung fu master gets owned, but is excited by it. That is how everyone should train.

 

[matsu]

chisauking..can i ask, is it just me or was it your complete intention just to find fault with kamon guy or just be argumentative or the sake of it and wether it benefitted any of us or even yourself or that matter?

i,m sure thet you are way more knowledgable than i,but this was not a constructive debate from where i was sitting!

just my tuppence.
matsu

 

[KamonGuy2]

chisauking..can i ask, is it just me or was it your complete intention just to find fault with kamon guy or just be argumentative or the sake of it and wether it benefitted any of us or even yourself or that matter?

i,m sure thet you are way more knowledgable than i,but this was not a constructive debate from where i was sitting!

just my tuppence.
matsu

Thankyou Matsu
I am hoping that chisauking was not being sarcastic (as his tone implied), as this is the kind of attitude that makes it difficult for chunners of other schools to train with each other

Training shoudl be fun and playful without egos

I know that Yip Man (in his early life) used to 'reckon himself' before he was beaten by another chun practitioner who eventually became his teacher. That kind of stuff happens. We can all learn from each other

Those that know me know that I'm an average martial artist with a passion for wing chun kung fu

Sadly some people thank that martial arts is all about winning and losing
Yet they don't realise that it comes down to a simple fact
Martial arts are fluid

If I go into a cage match with a guy tomorrow and beat him, there is nothing to stop him training for two years and coming back and beating me. Who was better?

Royce Gracie found that. He used to rule the cage but then lost and then people were saying he wasn't that good. Yet, if he offered to teach me something I would jump at the chance. You can learn something from anyone. Of course there are people better than others, but trying to quantify how good you are in comparison to other martial artists is impossible. Sure you can beat a man in a fight, but was it through luck? Was it through knowing more than he did? Was it through being mentally tougher then your opponent? So many factors, and yet people will continually judge a persons skill on winning and losing

That's just sad