To Shin Do Video Clip on Youtube!

[Cruentus]

Under my state's laws, the definition of a concealed knife as a weapon versus a tool often turns on minutiae of the design or it's practical use either at work or in daily life for anything other than fighting. That knife... I'd be charging someone with carrying a concealed weapon if I found it on them. There's almost no way I can see that it's useful for day-to-day work, or even special purposes like skinning knives or carpet knives. I don't care what a manufacturer calls it... They can call it "Warm & Fuzzy Teddy Bear" if they want. That knife is a weapon, and I think the mythical "reasonable man" would agree fully.

That's cool, because I know people from the marine/fishing industry who prefer this hooked type design because it helps them with severing rope, line, webbing, and netting. Added with the thin point that allows for hook removal without damaging the fish too greatly (for throwing it back) and the serrations, VG-10 steel, and G-10 handle for edge retention, rust prevention, and grip while out in a boat, the "Civilian" makes for a great marine knife. In fact, I am talking about this so much that I am getting excited about it and may pick one up if I can get one at a decent price!

But that's cool that you, and others who share your opinion, would throw anyone who had this knife in jail for carrying a concealed weapon.

This illustrates the exact reason why knife regulation should be both slim to non-existant and CLEAR rather then extensive and pending on an officer's, prosecutor's, or judge's subjective opinions.

But until that happends, we all need to be a bit careful with what we carry, particularly in Virginia and other certian states...

Paul

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Under my state's laws, the definition of a concealed knife as a weapon versus a tool often turns on minutiae of the design or it's practical use either at work or in daily life for anything other than fighting. That knife... I'd be charging someone with carrying a concealed weapon if I found it on them. There's almost no way I can see that it's useful for day-to-day work, or even special purposes like skinning knives or carpet knives. I don't care what a manufacturer calls it... They can call it "Warm & Fuzzy Teddy Bear" if they want. That knife is a weapon, and I think the mythical "reasonable man" would agree fully.

Which brings me a little more on the original topic; the video clip, if presented as proof of "self defense training" would be widely open to attack because so many of the techniques shown included attacks after the opponent was likely to have been disabled and no longer presenting a threat, in any reasonable interpretation. If it's presented or explained as "practicing historical combat techniques" -- it become a different matter. A lot of self defense comes down to articulation.

If you are an LEO I would hope that you are saying you would charge some ******* you dealt with, with a weapons charge. If you are saying that you would charge some guy at the supemarket with that clipped to his pocket because "he has no use for it" you are kinda scaring me. It looks to be a legal item in terms of buying and owning one. If you steal something and have one on you OK, but if you are a law abiding citizen carrying one and wind up having to use it in a justified self defense situation I would hope you wouldnt screw someone for it.

 

[Cruentus]

lol...you know what's funny:

We gotta be a bit more objective than that and realize that were not all stupid.

Nothing like a grammatical error or two when your trying to convince others that your not stupid. :lfao:

 

[jks9199]

If you are an LEO I would hope that you are saying you would charge some ******* you dealt with, with a weapons charge. If you are saying that you would charge some guy at the supemarket with that clipped to his pocket because "he has no use for it" you are kinda scaring me. It looks to be a legal item in terms of buying and owning one. If you steal something and have one on you OK, but if you are a law abiding citizen carrying one and wind up having to use it in a justified self defense situation I would hope you wouldnt screw someone for it.

Somebody walking down the street, minding their own business who has a knife that I never see or know about? They don't have much to worry about, and I'm not likely to arrest them. A lot comes down to context; I expect certain knives in the possession of carpenters, tile workers, carpet layers, etc. that would be more suspect carried in concealed manner on an office worker. A working knife may be hidden from view by clothing, but it's not likely to be in a sheath designed for mounting in the small of the back... And, given the description of this particular knife (the Spyderco Civilian) combined with the manufacturer's description of it, I don't buy Tulisan's explanation for it. There are lots of legitimate uses for hooked knives, like skinning knives, tile knives, and carpet knives. This particular knife is a lot harder to justify credibly, in my opinion. But I'd listen to an explanation; if it made reasonable sense in context, and the guy wasn't a problem child, he'd be on his way.

Let me give an example that might make that clearer. One night, I stopped a guy for a traffic violation. Turned out he had a knife tucked in the visor. He told me about it, warned me, and was cooperative. He explained why it was there (tucked as a convenience earlier and forgot about it), and was generally reasonable. He didn't get charged with carrying a concealed weapon, though I could have. But... A gang banger with that same knife, in that same place? Yeah -- he'd have been charged. Another time, we stopped a guy in the vicinity of a burglary that had just occurred. He had a lighter with a small spring-powered/switch-blade sort-of knife on him. He got charged with possession of a concealed weapon, and later, with the burglary. Sure, the "knife" was a cheap charge -- but it let us hold him.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Sounds reasonable. Where I live lots of people have folding knives so almost everybody could get arrested by those standards. A dagger or a switchblade or a butterfly knife will get you in trouble here but I dont think the cops would look twice at a folder like that (beyond officer safety that is).How well do those charges hold up in court?

 

[Cruentus]

There are lots of legitimate uses for hooked knives, like skinning knives, tile knives, and carpet knives. This particular knife is a lot harder to justify credibly, in my opinion. But I'd listen to an explanation; if it made reasonable sense in context, and the guy wasn't a problem child, he'd be on his way.

That's fine in that your doing your job as your state would like you too; where you make the decision based on the circumstance. The fact is, if you have reason to believe that someone is going to commit a crime, and you can justify it, then you can find a reason to hold someone or at least put on some heat. My beef isn't really with you, it's regarding self-defense laws in your's, as well as many other, states. I would also like to know the answer to BH's question: how often do these charges stick?

What the state of Virginia is basically saying, by the sounds of it, is that knives are illegal to have for self-defense. I think that this is inappropriate. People should be able to have whatever they want for self-defense, within reason, because self-defense is an inalienable right. If someone is likely to commit a crime, there are other things that should add up to being detained and charged besides simply carrying a knife.

But this goes back to why I urge people to get a concealed pistol's license and carry a firearm legally. And this is especially why we need to maintain our 2nd amendment rights. A gun with a license is seen as the law abiding citizens way of defending him/herself. A knife or other make shift weapon is seen as something a thug carries to commit a crime. The latter may be completely untrue depending on the circumstance and who the carrier is, but the law probably won't see it that way.

So, that is why I always say that if you carry a knife, do so because it is a utility tool, not because you intend to use it for self-defense.

But, we have officially gone beyond the topic of this thread..

Hijack over, Hooaah. :ubercool:

 

[Don Roley]

As to this video footage:

Let's not forget what the original topic of discussion is here.

The real topic of discussion is this video footage, and how "incriminating" it would be if used in court. This is where I am going to disagree with some people here.

You see, I agree with the notion that footage like this could be used in court; but I am also saying that almost all training sessions and video footage in the martial arts could be used in the same manner. It is not like Hayes is in pajama's and sneaking up behind someone and using a sentary removal technique here...ahem.

So, for those of you who think that this material is so incriminating, I suggest that you tape some of your own training sessions and look at that as well. Because the fact is, combatives/SD/MA involves using force; which can be translated too HURTING someone else. So IT ALL looks bad if caught on tape and used in court, and this isn't isolated to hitting a knife weilding attacker while on the ground. An argument can be made against almost ANY type of training where force is involved.

There is a lot of truth in that. But how easy is it to avoid unneeded trouble by not posting clips of you hitting someone on the ground with a stick?

Take a look at all that I have posted. I have never said that it might not be needed to hit someone on the ground. But I am saying we should not make it any easier for some scumbag to sue us later on. If I had this clip and was making the choice to put it on the internet or not, my choice would be clear. I question why someone would open up every Toshindo practicioner to legal trouble by posting this type of thing on the internet. It is not like they have to post this stuff.

There is a bit difference between doing something that might open you up to legal trouble and flaunting that training in front of others. And the simple fact is that if you have any relation to ninjutsu (Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu or Toshindo) you already have something that can be used against you in a court of law. Unlike someone that practices Tae Kwon Do or Kenpo, we will already be looked at with a bit of suspicion. If anyone reading this thread decides to not follow Hayes' example and takes care before posting something on youtube, I might have done a great service to them.

I reject the agrument that we should do whatever we want since we can be sued anyways. I also carry a Spyderco Delica and post on internet sites, so I am not the type to be scared of doing anything for fear of legal trouble. But if you can avoid trouble, it is only logical that you do it.

 

[Cruentus]

I reject the agrument that we should do whatever we want since we can be sued anyways. I also carry a Spyderco Delica and post on internet sites, so I am not the type to be scared of doing anything for fear of legal trouble. But if you can avoid trouble, it is only logical that you do it.

Now now... I am not saying "do what you want because you'll be sued anyway," so I reject that argument as well. I am just saying that one has to reasonably balance living freely with reducing liability.

You do make an intriging point about video footage in general. This brings up an interesting question, and I am curious to hear what everyone thinks: where do we draw the line when it comes to what we allow to be filmed and put on the internet for all to see?

Thoughts?

 

[Don Roley]

Now now... I am not saying "do what you want because you'll be sued anyway," so I reject that argument as well. I am just saying that one has to reasonably balance living freely with reducing liability.

You do make an intriging point about video footage in general. This brings up an interesting question, and I am curious to hear what everyone thinks: where do we draw the line when it comes to what we allow to be filmed and put on the internet for all to see?

Thoughts?

Some people do seem to think that you should do wahtever you want since you could be sued anyways and would take your statements to support their fantasy. Not saying that you are at fault, just trying to make it clear enough for the most stupid fantsy guy in this board.

And for what we show on the internet, definatly not the type of thing I jumped down Nexus's throat here about. And no pictures of people getting cut down like a sentry, or hit on the ground, or anything that their legal council would balk at.

It seems simple to me. If there is any question about it causing trouble or not, then just don't post it and put up something else that is safer. Better to be too safe and just not put something out than find out too late that it will get you into trouble.

 

[jks9199]

Sounds reasonable. Where I live lots of people have folding knives so almost everybody could get arrested by those standards. A dagger or a switchblade or a butterfly knife will get you in trouble here but I dont think the cops would look twice at a folder like that (beyond officer safety that is).How well do those charges hold up in court?

It depends on the defense attorney. As I said, the case often comes down to minutiae and articulation of the circumstances. "Concealed" means hidden from common observation -- and I've seen that argued! With knives, the code lists "any dirk, bowie knife, switchblade knife, ballistic knife, machete, razor, slingshot, spring stick, metal knucks, or blackjack" and includes a "anything similar" phrase. I've seen attorneys bring a dictionary in to argue that a particular knife wasn't one of the listed... and I've seen good prosecutors turn that around by identifying the common characteristics with the knife in question. It sort of depends on how hard the prosecutor wants to fight.

And, yes, we do get concealed machetes. Gang bangers are so much fun...

 

[jks9199]

What the state of Virginia is basically saying, by the sounds of it, is that knives are illegal to have for self-defense. I think that this is inappropriate. People should be able to have whatever they want for self-defense, within reason, because self-defense is an inalienable right. If someone is likely to commit a crime, there are other things that should add up to being detained and charged besides simply carrying a knife.

But this goes back to why I urge people to get a concealed pistol's license and carry a firearm legally. And this is especially why we need to maintain our 2nd amendment rights. A gun with a license is seen as the law abiding citizens way of defending him/herself. A knife or other make shift weapon is seen as something a thug carries to commit a crime. The latter may be completely untrue depending on the circumstance and who the carrier is, but the law probably won't see it that way.

So, that is why I always say that if you carry a knife, do so because it is a utility tool, not because you intend to use it for self-defense.
:ubercool:
But, we have officially gone beyond the topic of this thread..

Hijack over, Hooaah.

No... What the code says is that people who CONCEAL a knife that's main intent is hurting people are breaking the law because many of the people who do so intend to use that knife to hurt someone, not defend themselves. If it's a utility tool... Then you're not breaking the law, and if you happen to use it to protect yourself, you fall back on the defense of justification. Just make sure that the "utility tool" definition is credible and it's not on the list of specified weapons. Again -- the bottom line is that if you aren't doing anything that's going to bring police attention down upon you , you probably don't have anything to worry about.

FYI -- VA is a "shall issue" state for CCWs; unless there's a reason, once you meet certain minimal requirements, you can get a CCW. You can generally carry a gun openly almost anywhere, as well. And VA doesn't require registration of guns, either. I'm a fan of the 2nd Amendment (in fact, the entire Bill of Rights).

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Where do you think that spyderco falls withing those definitions? Its a plain old folder really, just hooked and serrated. No more deadly than a buck knife of the same length. Its not a "any dirk, bowie knife, switchblade knife, ballistic knife, machete, razor, slingshot, spring stick, metal knucks, or blackjack"...not grilling you or anything just curious.

 

[jks9199]

Now now... I am not saying "do what you want because you'll be sued anyway," so I reject that argument as well. I am just saying that one has to reasonably balance living freely with reducing liability.

You do make an intriging point about video footage in general. This brings up an interesting question, and I am curious to hear what everyone thinks: where do we draw the line when it comes to what we allow to be filmed and put on the internet for all to see?

Thoughts?

Honestly, I'm not a fan of filming training. Yes, there's the possible issue of the video being used against you, or to cast aspersions on you because of what it seems to show. But that applies to still images and even notes or "eyewitness testimony." ("Those crazy guys run around in black military style fatigues/ninja costumes/whatever practicing combat...."type of statements could be just as damaging.)

Instead, my issue is that I've noticed some instructors change what they teach if cameras are present, or that the cameras become a distraction (ever been asked to move so that someone who wasn't even participating in the training session could set up their camera? I have) and the reliance on the camera to capture the details (which it often fails to do!) leads to inattentive training by some students. My teacher doesn't allow video taping when he teaches, but he encourages note-taking, and I agree with him.

Posting video on the internet leads to the other part of the problem; I teach things a certain way based on the students present. My teacher does this, and so does his teacher, and I get the impression that many Bujinkan instructors do as well. Posting that video means people who couldn't bother to be there can get the lesson -- and it may not have been "meant" for them. It also leads to people who don't have a formal link to the training body (Bujinkan/Toshindo/whatever martial arts association you care to name) may start copying and misusing/misapplying what they see. I don't have many "deep secrets" in my training -- but some things take time and sweat to pay the dues to earn. I don't want someone "learning" it off the internet...

 

[jks9199]

Where do you think that spyderco falls withing those definitions? Its a plain old folder really, just hooked and serrated. No more deadly than a buck knife of the same length. Its not a "any dirk, bowie knife, switchblade knife, ballistic knife, machete, razor, slingshot, spring stick, metal knucks, or blackjack"...not grilling you or anything just curious.

Looking at that particular knife, I would argue that it falls under the prohibitions as "a similar weapon" along the lines of a razor. It doesn't look like a work or utility knife. In the hands of a carpet layer -- I'd probably not question it at all... But, the manufacturer states that it's not designed or intended as a general utility knife. I'm a fan of Spyderco blades, and I'm sure it would hold up well to ordinary use... but that wasn't their intention in designing and making it. You can sharpen an axe blade well enough to shave with it -- but I think you're probably still going to stick with whatever shaving razor you prefer, right? If I'm going to court after charging someone with carrying this knife... I'm probably going to have taken the time to find out what the manufacturer says about it.

As I said, often the success of these charges depends on the totality of the circumstances and the articulation. If I stopped someone and they had this knife on them, but offered what seemed a reasonable explanation (like it's for marine/fishing use, and they've got a tacklebox or even just a fishing license), and they're not causing problems -- I probably wouldn't do anything. But if they're dressed for a party, and the knife isn't just clipped to a pocket, but tucked into the small of the back, under their belt? That's a bit of a different situation, isn't it?

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

More To Shin Do Videos:

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Yet another To Shin Do Clip :

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5400184160196346338&q=to+shin+do

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Looking at that particular knife, I would argue that it falls under the prohibitions as "a similar weapon" along the lines of a razor. It doesn't look like a work or utility knife. In the hands of a carpet layer -- I'd probably not question it at all... But, the manufacturer states that it's not designed or intended as a general utility knife. I'm a fan of Spyderco blades, and I'm sure it would hold up well to ordinary use... but that wasn't their intention in designing and making it. You can sharpen an axe blade well enough to shave with it -- but I think you're probably still going to stick with whatever shaving razor you prefer, right? If I'm going to court after charging someone with carrying this knife... I'm probably going to have taken the time to find out what the manufacturer says about it.

As I said, often the success of these charges depends on the totality of the circumstances and the articulation. If I stopped someone and they had this knife on them, but offered what seemed a reasonable explanation (like it's for marine/fishing use, and they've got a tacklebox or even just a fishing license), and they're not causing problems -- I probably wouldn't do anything. But if they're dressed for a party, and the knife isn't just clipped to a pocket, but tucked into the small of the back, under their belt? That's a bit of a different situation, isn't it?

Yeah I guess so.

IMO while Im all for giving the police the tools to lock up the bad guys, Im a little afraid that they can also be stretched into a way to "disarm" the "good guys". If that guy with the knife clipped to his back is a hard working, tax paying, never been in trouble in his life type guy, who somehow has a police contact that reveals it, stretching a legally purchasable knife into a "something similar" weapon arrest doesnt seem in the interest of justice. Carpet layer or not. Not saying that YOU in this example would, I think most cops would know the difference between this guy and some gangbanger and would use their discretion, but Im also fairly certain that some cops would.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

More To Shin Do Videos:

Back on topic. Is that "punch the attacking arm" thing peculiar to TSD or is it in all Ninjutsu styles? While it looks good in slow-mo, Im skeptical of its effectiveness in full speed punching.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Back on topic. Is that "punch the attacking arm" thing peculiar to TSD or is it in all Ninjutsu styles? While it looks good in slow-mo, Im skeptical of its effectiveness in full speed punching.

It is part of an underlying philosophy of movement. All the Budo Taijutsu, To Shin do, X-Kan etc. utilize various ways of moving off line and intercepting and destroying/damaging the attacking tool. Just one method but very typical of all. When the distance and angling are right then it is useful. If they are not :idunno: well it is much like anything else and not very useful. Realize that their are countless ways to deal with an incoming attack withing Budo Taijutsu (what I am familiar with) and this is just one way.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Back on topic. Is that "punch the attacking arm" thing peculiar to TSD or is it in all Ninjutsu styles? While it looks good in slow-mo, Im skeptical of its effectiveness in full speed punching.

Also envision tools being used in this movement to give the defender an advantage. Budo Taijutsu is definately a tool based art.