TKD is Weak on the street as a self defense?

[DaveB]

Thank you dave some good info, however why would another martial art slow the progress for example if i took something like judo/ JJ

All martial arts have their own basic movements, distances, core responses etc. Training is largely about in ingraining those traits and habits. Trying to learn two different skill sets simultaneously confuses the brain and makes learning harder.

It's almost always better to wait until you are proficient at one specialist art and then to allow your improved balance and coordination speed up the learning of a second art than to try to learn two from scratch.

The obvious exception to this is an integrated training program as one might find in mma. But that is a different thing than learning judo for two hours one day then tkd for two hours another day.

 

[drop bear]

And give yourself at least two years before you pick up another martial art. All you will do is slow your progress in both.

Because style doesn't matter?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

All martial arts have their own basic movements, distances, core responses etc. Training is largely about in ingraining those traits and habits. Trying to learn two different skill sets simultaneously confuses the brain and makes learning harder.

It's almost always better to wait until you are proficient at one specialist art and then to allow your improved balance and coordination speed up the learning of a second art than to try to learn two from scratch.

The obvious exception to this is an integrated training program as one might find in mma. But that is a different thing than learning judo for two hours one day then tkd for two hours another day.

I don't agree with this. I've trained with too many people who trained multiple arts, and both paths seem to be reasonable. Brain confusion is a part of the learning process. It will probably take longer to learn the first art if it is learned alongside the second, but it won't double the learning time. And in some cases, waiting until the first art is ingrained makes it difficult to get the core concepts of the second art (like transitioning from Shotokan's angles to Aikido's curves), making the second art take considerably longer to integrate.

It's a pretty individual thing. Some folks prefer to dig deep into the first art before adding another. Others do better with the variety of multiple arts.

 

[DaveB]

Because style doesn't matter?

Was my description of how to train for effective skill style specific?
Because that was really the more relevant thing I've said in this thread if you want to lose that argument again.

More useful to the thread poster might be to correct my suggestions on gaining effective skill if its incorrect.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Because style doesn't matter?

Because learning matters.
The way you throw punches in Wing Chun is not the same as the way you throw punches if you're studying TKD. It may be faster to learn how it's done in A before you worry about how it's done in B. Not always, and not for everybody, but certainly for a significant portion of students.
Personally I don't care if someone wants to study multiple arts at the same time. If it slows down their progress, that's their business, not mine. They'll be promoted when they're ready, regardless of how long it takes.

 

[JR 137]

Thank you dave some good info, however why would another martial art slow the progress for example if i took something like judo/ JJ

It depends. If you’ve got 3 nights per week to train, you can either dedicate all 3 nights to one art, or split them, doing say 2 TKD and 1 Judo. No different than if you did basketball 2 nights and soccer 1 night. You’re not going to progress in either as quickly as you would if you did one all three nights.

If you can train every day and each dojo is open opposite nights, then it would slow you down much if at all.

All IMO.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Hi everyone

I took my first TKD ITF lesson yesterday, I really enjoyed it.

I do have however have some concerns, I'm always reading how TKD is simply too impractical for the street as a defense art and it's one of the arts to be avoided along with Aikido.

Could someone give me some clarity on this?

The place I just joined has the TKD and also has Street awareness incorporated in to the sessions.

My initial thought was to take TKD and also do either JUDO/JJJ along side with it.

My main goal is to be able to protect my family if a dangerous situation were to occur.

If your main goal is to use TKD as a self-defense then you need to make the head instructor aware of your goal so that you can get the training you need in order to use TKD in that manner. If you don't tell the head instructor then you'll probably learn Olympic TKD

 

[drop bear]

Was my description of how to train for effective skill style specific?
Because that was really the more relevant thing I've said in this thread if you want to lose that argument again.

More useful to the thread poster might be to correct my suggestions on gaining effective skill if its incorrect.

Its incorrect.

 

[drop bear]

Because learning matters.
The way you throw punches in Wing Chun is not the same as the way you throw punches if you're studying TKD. It may be faster to learn how it's done in A before you worry about how it's done in B. Not always, and not for everybody, but certainly for a significant portion of students.
Personally I don't care if someone wants to study multiple arts at the same time. If it slows down their progress, that's their business, not mine. They'll be promoted when they're ready, regardless of how long it takes.

The way I throw jabs is different to the way I throw crosses. Different power generation. Different footwork. But for some reason I can learn both at once.

 

[Dirty Dog]

The way I throw jabs is different to the way I throw crosses. Different power generation. Different footwork. But for some reason I can learn both at once.

You really do love the strawman argument, don't you? Did I say you couldn't learn two things at once, or did I specifically say you could?
Of course, the actually issue here is not entirely different strikes, but the same strike done by different systems. The way we teach a given kick may not be exactly the same as how it's taught in a CMA. Try to do both at the same time, and you may well find yourself doing the CMA version in my class. Which may well mean your progress in TKD will be slower than someone who sticks with a single art.
But you knew that already, I'm sure.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The way I throw jabs is different to the way I throw crosses. Different power generation. Different footwork. But for some reason I can learn both at once.

I think learning two systems from a single source/instructor (or two techniques with significant differences like your jab and cross) makes it easier to learn them in tandem, because the explanations will make more sense together. This is the case with most systems that include both striking and grappling, and with a lot of MMA training, I suspect. Of course, that can often happen (more or less by accident) even with two different, unrelated instructors. The real issue with learning two at once is when both instructors are really strict about some of the conflicting principles, and have very different ways of explaining things (which can mask the similarities that make it easier to learn both).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You really do love the strawman argument, don't you? Did I say you couldn't learn two things at once, or did I specifically say you could?
Of course, the actually issue here is not entirely different strikes, but the same strike done by different systems. The way we teach a given kick may not be exactly the same as how it's taught in a CMA. Try to do both at the same time, and you may well find yourself doing the CMA version in my class. Which may well mean your progress in TKD will be slower than someone who sticks with a single art.
But you knew that already, I'm sure.

This would be the part that would be most confusing, is where there's overlap that's close, but not close enough, and the instructors are each focused on teaching their approach. Trying to learn two conflicting approaches to a roundhouse kick at the same time, for instance, would confuse the heck outta me.

 

[drop bear]

I think learning two systems from a single source/instructor (or two techniques with significant differences like your jab and cross) makes it easier to learn them in tandem, because the explanations will make more sense together. This is the case with most systems that include both striking and grappling, and with a lot of MMA training, I suspect. Of course, that can often happen (more or less by accident) even with two different, unrelated instructors. The real issue with learning two at once is when both instructors are really strict about some of the conflicting principles, and have very different ways of explaining things (which can mask the similarities that make it easier to learn both).

My jab cross example is about how quickly you can adopt two conflicting principles. Just nobody notices because you learn them both at once.

When you are with instructor A. You do instructor A method. When you are with instructor B. You do B. method.

If you were to say do muay thai and TKD. you can throw light deceptive kicks and then throw hard thai kicks. Which becomes harder for him to predict what is coming out.

I mean we have seen Steve Vick. The two modules work. Even to the point the guy is switching stances and changing systems mid fight. Again because going from a jab to a cross is a change in system.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

My jab cross example is about how quickly you can adopt two conflicting principles. Just nobody notices because you learn them both at once.

When you are with instructor A. You do instructor A method. When you are with instructor B. You do B. method.

If you were to say do muay thai and TKD. you can throw light deceptive kicks and then throw hard thai kicks. Which becomes harder for him to predict what is coming out.

I mean we have seen Steve Vick. The two modules work. Even to the point the guy is switching stances and changing systems mid fight. Again because going from a jab to a cross is a change in system.

The issue with the kicks is learning two very similar ones, where the instructors want it done the way they teach. So, for instance, one is teaching a kick that turns the hip over. The other teaches the same kick without the hip turned over. That would almost certainly make learning that one technique harder in both styles, if it's being learned at the same time, because you're trying to develop two competing habits at once. It wouldn't make it impossible, of course, and it might only add 25% to the overall learning curve at any given point (so, 25% behind where you'd be on one if learning them separately - not sure we'd ever be able to measure it without a large-scale randomized study with controls). So, it would make it more difficult, but probably not a major problem for most folks.

As I said earlier, it's probably pretty individual. Some folks need to stay on a single detail for a long time. Some folks thrive on more variety. Most folks are in the middle somewhere, I expect.

 

[drop bear]

This would be the part that would be most confusing, is where there's overlap that's close, but not close enough, and the instructors are each focused on teaching their approach. Trying to learn two conflicting approaches to a roundhouse kick at the same time, for instance, would confuse the heck outta me.

I mean If you were to go to a next level martial artist like Saenchai we would learn that overlap.

This multi style coupling is hard but you are a better martial artist if you can master it.

 

[Balrog]

I'm always reading how TKD is simply too impractical for the street as a defense art and it's one of the arts to be avoided along with Aikido.

Could someone give me some clarity on this?

I would suggest that you stop reading things written by people who don't know what they are talking about.

Taekwondo is highly effective for self defense. So is aikido. So is ANY martial art that teaches you situational awareness and from which you gain confidence. Bad guys profile for victims. They look for people who don't appear confident, and especially for people who are not aware of their surroundings.

 

[DaveB]

Its incorrect.

Maybe, but it wasn't style specific, so your lame attemlt to strawman me into contradicting my established beliefs has failed.

So now please elaborate... surely you've had enough time to come up with something?
About what was I incorrect?

Edit: my opinion on duel training was just that and only refers to raw beginners.
I concede it's not true for everyone and even if I'm right it is more fun.

 

[drop bear]

Maybe, but it wasn't style specific, so your lame attemlt to strawman me into contradicting my established beliefs has failed.

So now please elaborate... surely you've had enough time to come up with something?
About what was I incorrect?

Edit: my opinion on duel training was just that and only refers to raw beginners.
I concede it's not true for everyone and even if I'm right it is more fun.

It wasn't style specific but you can't train two styles at once? Because training different styles effect the style you train.

MMMMMMM..........

Anyway look at the posts above.

 

[Flatfish]

Based on my own experiences I would say it really depends on how your TKD school trains. The school I attended, we did olympic style sparring and compliant self defense techniques (joint locks etc). We did not spend a lot of time working on punches. So I would say we did not train in a way that was particularly useful for a SD situation apart maybe from the kicks. But again all these things are in TKD, it depends on whether they are being taught and practiced effectively. I have since started grappling and learned just how darn difficult it is to to a joint lock when the other person doesn't want you to do it.

As far as some of the other aspects go that were mentioned at the beginning of this thread, I myself am unlikely to get into a "Street" situation, we live in a good neighborhood, I rarely go to the city at night, m job doesn' t take me sketchy places etc. OTOH my daughter will be in her teens soon, high school, then college etc where she might get into some unfortunate situations. So I am very happy that she is training and hope she'll keep it up.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I mean If you were to go to a next level martial artist like Saenchai we would learn that overlap.

This multi style coupling is hard but you are a better martial artist if you can master it.

I love watching Saenchai. He almost brings a bit of Capoeira feel to Muay Thai. He definitely understands malandragem.

I guess that footage is from seminars where he spars some of the participants? That would be an awesome opportunity.