TKD is Weak on the street as a self defense?

[skribs]

If that is a Russian guy, then he probably is used to being on a slippery surface, as it gets very cold there. That's why you're not supposed to try and lay siege to Russia. They'll just hold out to winter, and then your troops will freeze to death. Why don't you show me a video of yourself going to an ice skating rink and performing tornado kicks, back kicks, and spin-hook kicks, and tell me its just as easy as it is in the dojang on the mat?

I also don't see that the argument has been made that these kicks are not possible, or that these kicks cannot be used in self defense. Just that the tactics used in Taekwondo Olympic-style sparring are not likely to be as effective when your opponent can break all the rules of the style.

The first video you showed proved that a tornado kick can be used in MMA. Does that mean that all tornado kicks will be successful in MMA? Does that mean the same tactics you use in Taekwondo will set it up in MMA? No. It proves anecdotally it worked. It doesn't prove that it's a good idea.

 

[drop bear]

If that is a Russian guy, then he probably is used to being on a slippery surface, as it gets very cold there. That's why you're not supposed to try and lay siege to Russia. They'll just hold out to winter, and then your troops will freeze to death. Why don't you show me a video of yourself going to an ice skating rink and performing tornado kicks, back kicks, and spin-hook kicks, and tell me its just as easy as it is in the dojang on the mat?

I also don't see that the argument has been made that these kicks are not possible, or that these kicks cannot be used in self defense. Just that the tactics used in Taekwondo Olympic-style sparring are not likely to be as effective when your opponent can break all the rules of the style.

The first video you showed proved that a tornado kick can be used in MMA. Does that mean that all tornado kicks will be successful in MMA? Does that mean the same tactics you use in Taekwondo will set it up in MMA? No. It proves anecdotally it worked. It doesn't prove that it's a good idea.

It was addressing the issues of catching a kick. Which of course you can do in MMA and then beat the guy unconscious.

Tornado kicks are becoming pretty common. And catching really hasn't really been an issue.

 

[DaveB]

So Drop Bear, basically what you are saying is that if you ignore the point being made and home in on one of the examples to the exclusion of all context that you might be able to make everyone forget that you are arguing nonsense.

 

[DaveB]

Okay, I'm still not sure where the term "accepted SD technique" is coming in. He never said he couldn't use stuff because it wasn't designed for SD. He said he couldn't use his sport-oriented TKD because it wasn't working in the situation. That might be a problem with TKD, or might be a problem with his TKD. For him, in the situation at that moment, the two are the same. Someone with TKD experience would probably be equipped to talk about whether the way the techniques are trained/used for sport makes it harder to translate them to less dependable surfaces.

The concept that started out here was that training for sport can end up developing technique in a way that doesn't work on other surfaces. Mind you, the same is true for SD-oriented training, if that training is limited to the dojo, for the very same reasons. It's pretty easy to step outside and work on grass, gravel, pavement, etc. from time to time, and it gives an opportunity to find out (when the cost of finding out is pretty low) what is and is not problematic when you aren't in that training environment.

For my part I was simply suggesting that environment is one of the considerations of goal oriented training (specifically SD in this discussion) that sport training doesn't usually address.

There are other things that drop bear will make equally circuitous and irrelevant arguments to avoid conceding aren't included in sport training, but as I mentioned before DBs tactic is to home in on a single aspect so the big picture is lost.

His argument is "all you need for anything is sport training", and it is surpisingly fun watching him tie him and his straw men into knotts to support his belief.

Funny thing is I don't especially disagree. I think if all you want to do is sport that it will likely build enough attributes and skills to help in many SD situations. I just also see the benefits of learning specific skills and knowledge relevant to the goal.

 

[DaveB]

Catching kicks cos of the rules?

Is this where I just drop the mike? Street fight with kicks on freaking ice. Ok mabye concrete. Looks slippery as all get out.

Even if this video showed what you thought it showed, you are so busy manufacturing your own version of what is being said to you that your trying to defeat arguments no one else is making.

 

[skribs]

Even if this video showed what you thought it showed, you are so busy manufacturing your own version of what is being said to you that your trying to defeat arguments no one else is making.

Wow, that is one of the best ways to put that argument that I've ever seen.

 

[drop bear]

Even if this video showed what you thought it showed, you are so busy manufacturing your own version of what is being said to you that your trying to defeat arguments no one else is making.

Do you have an example of that?

 

[drop bear]

So Drop Bear, basically what you are saying is that if you ignore the point being made and home in on one of the examples to the exclusion of all context that you might be able to make everyone forget that you are arguing nonsense.

You mean the part of my post skribs has homed in on there.

If you want to suggest a argument is nonsense you kind of need to show the argument then show why it is nonsense.

So for example here is part of the post.

Skribs.
"which was regarding kicks like the tornado kick or a spinning hook kick, and that as the ground gets more slippery, the risk of injury when falling becomes greater, or the rules change (i.e. in Olympic TKD you can't grab your opponent's legs) you're going to have to change which techniques you would want to use. This sub-discussion is not about Taekwondo in general, but specifically about the more energetic techniques and whether or not they're practical in the real world."

So I showed a slippery environment and an environment where people can catch kicks. Because unlike what you claimed they were the actual arguments being made.

You shouldn't really post up threads with no content.

That is just trolling.

 

[skribs]

You mean the part of my post skribs has homed in on there.

If you want to suggest a argument is nonsense you kind of need to show the argument then show why it is nonsense.

So for example here is part of the post.

Skribs.
"which was regarding kicks like the tornado kick or a spinning hook kick, and that as the ground gets more slippery, the risk of injury when falling becomes greater, or the rules change (i.e. in Olympic TKD you can't grab your opponent's legs) you're going to have to change which techniques you would want to use. This sub-discussion is not about Taekwondo in general, but specifically about the more energetic techniques and whether or not they're practical in the real world."

So I showed a slippery environment and an environment where people can catch kicks. Because unlike what you claimed they were the actual arguments being made.

You shouldn't really post up threads with no content.

That is just trolling.

You're claiming that a single instance of a tornado kick working in MMA is proof that there is no more danger to using a tornado kick in MMA than there is in Olympic TKD.

You're claiming that a single video of a guy fake-fighting on ice is proof that there is no danger of slipping on ice when you're fighting.

You're using anecdotal evidence of successes to make generalized claims.

 

[drop bear]

For my part I was simply suggesting that environment is one of the considerations of goal oriented training (specifically SD in this discussion) that sport training doesn't usually address.

There are other things that drop bear will make equally circuitous and irrelevant arguments to avoid conceding aren't included in sport training, but as I mentioned before DBs tactic is to home in on a single aspect so the big picture is lost.

His argument is "all you need for anything is sport training", and it is surpisingly fun watching him tie him and his straw men into knotts to support his belief.

Funny thing is I don't especially disagree. I think if all you want to do is sport that it will likely build enough attributes and skills to help in many SD situations. I just also see the benefits of learning specific skills and knowledge relevant to the goal.

Complain all you want but a lot of people are throwing successful kicks under varying conditions.

The evidence is just there. Regardless what you have been told.

If you want to make a case the environment adversely effect this kicking style. You need to support the argument with something.

So far everyone has just said it.

And they say it because they are used to everyone else just saying it.

Rather than actually thinking about it.

 

[drop bear]

You're claiming that a single instance of a tornado kick working in MMA is proof that there is no more danger to using a tornado kick in MMA than there is in Olympic TKD.

You're claiming that a single video of a guy fake-fighting on ice is proof that there is no danger of slipping on ice when you're fighting.

You're using anecdotal evidence of successes to make generalized claims.

I can go on YouTube and show compilations of kicks working in street fights.

So more an extreme example (and even if fake. He still didn't fall over)

Now bear in mind the evidence for slipping over so far is nothing.

I have made more of a case for slipping over inside the dojo than outside it.

 

[skribs]

Nobody is saying kicks can't work in MMA or in the street. We're saying there are different considerations in training for those situations.

Do me a favor, go to an ice skating rink and do your forms, do sparring drills with tornado kicks, and then report back to me with how easy it was to do, the first try, when you started your practice on ice instead of on your dojang floor.

 

[drop bear]

Nobody is saying kicks can't work in MMA or in the street. We're saying there are different considerations in training for those situations.

Do me a favor, go to an ice skating rink and do your forms, do sparring drills with tornado kicks, and then report back to me with how easy it was to do, the first try, when you started your practice on ice instead of on your dojang floor.

Do me a favor and argue with evidence of these kicks not working on different surfaces. Or how these different considerations actually represent themselves

Because so far I have your say so that this is the case. And I am watching a lot of examples where it just isnt the case.

 

[skribs]

So...more fake stuff, a clip titled "bully gets K.O. with spin kick to the face" when the aggressor used a back kick to the stomach, lots of stuff where they're not fighting on slippery surfaces like we're discussing, and lots of stuff that doesn't involve anything close to olympic style sparring.

Did you even watch the video?

I now understand the term "I literally can't even..." because I don't even know how to respond to arguments that are so far outside the scope of the discussion that they have no relevance.

 

[DaveB]

So...more fake stuff, a clip titled "bully gets K.O. with spin kick to the face" when the aggressor used a back kick to the stomach, lots of stuff where they're not fighting on slippery surfaces like we're discussing, and lots of stuff that doesn't involve anything close to olympic style sparring.

Did you even watch the video?

I now understand the term "I literally can't even..." because I don't even know how to respond to arguments that are so far outside the scope of the discussion that they have no relevance.

How do you begin to discuss a subject when the opposition's starting premise is, "I saw it on youtube so it must be universal truth"?

 

[DaveB]

Do me a favor and argue with evidence of these kicks not working on different surfaces. Or how these different considerations actually represent themselves

Because so far I have your say so that this is the case. And I am watching a lot of examples where it just isnt the case.

Here's my evidence:
Redirect Notice

 

[drop bear]

So...more fake stuff, a clip titled "bully gets K.O. with spin kick to the face" when the aggressor used a back kick to the stomach, lots of stuff where they're not fighting on slippery surfaces like we're discussing, and lots of stuff that doesn't involve anything close to olympic style sparring.

Did you even watch the video?

I now understand the term "I literally can't even..." because I don't even know how to respond to arguments that are so far outside the scope of the discussion that they have no relevance.

At the very least it is an example that you can throw lots of different kicks on lots of different surfaces.

So regardless of what you are trying to suggest. These kicks work in an uncertain environment.

Not as you suggested only suitable for one environment.

What have you supported your argument with?

 

[drop bear]

How do you begin to discuss a subject when the opposition's starting premise is, "I saw it on youtube so it must be universal truth"?

By finding evidence of your own to counter those claims.

 

[skribs]

At the very least it is an example that you can throw lots of different kicks on lots of different surfaces.

So regardless of what you are trying to suggest. These kicks work in an uncertain environment.

Not as you suggested only suitable for one environment.

What have you supported your argument with?

When
Has
Anyone
Said
These
Kicks
Will
Never
Work?

Sorry, but you've missed that the last several times I've written it, so I figured I'd make it easier to spot. If you are arguing against the idea that these kicks will never work in a situation outside of Olympic sparring, nobody is saying that. You're basically trying to prove the Earth is round if you're arguing that it's possible to use these kicks and tactics.

However, you seem to be arguing that:

1. The surface you are on makes no difference in how effective your kick will be, and that it should be easy to do tornado kicks on an icy road
2. That if you haven't practiced on slick ground, it will be easy to fight on slick ground
3. That the risk of injury is not greater if you are on a hard ground (like the street) as opposed to a padded Taekwondo dojang
4. That there is no additional risk of your kicks being countered in a match where grabbing the leg is allowed, or on the street where the only rule is survival

So tell me, which is it that you're arguing? Are you arguing that A) it is possible for a Taekwondo kick to work outside of the dojang and in adverse conditions? If so, congratulations, you've just spent pages and pages arguing against something that nobody is arguing.
Or are you arguing that B) what works in the Taekwondo ring will work just as easily in the real world? In which case a few highlight videos, half of which are obviously fake, aren't going to do anything.

By finding evidence of your own to counter those claims.

I mean, with how realistic half of those fights looked, I might as well be arguing against the idea that a Kamehameha Wave is practical for self defense.

 

[DaveB]

At the very least it is an example that you can throw lots of different kicks on lots of different surfaces.

So regardless of what you are trying to suggest. These kicks work in an uncertain environment.

Not as you suggested only suitable for one environment.

What have you supported your argument with?

Nobody said these things you are arguing against.

Just saw Skribs got there first. Well done for having the patience to explain this again.