TKD and Hapkido Are Two Different Faces to the Same Coin

[msmitht]

just to set the record straight :
Hapkido (also spelled hap ki do or hapki-do) is a dynamic and eclectic Korean martial art. It is a form of self-defense that employs joint locks, techniques of other martial arts, as well as common unskilled attacks. There is also the of use traditional weapons, including the short stick, cane, rope, nunchucku, sword, and staff which vary in emphasis depending on the particular tradition examined.
Hapkido contains both long and close range fighting techniques, utilizing dynamic kicking and percussive hand strikes at longer ranges and pressure point strikes, jointlocks, or throws at closer fighting distances. Hapkido emphasizes circular motion, non-resisting movements, and control of the opponent. Practitioners seek to gain advantage through footwork and body positioning to employ leverage, avoiding the use of strength against strength.
The art evolved from Daitō-ryū Aiki-jūjutsu or a closely related jujutsu system taught by Choi Yong Sul who returned to Korea after WWII, having lived in Japan for 30 years. This system was later combined with kicking and striking techniques of indigenous and contemporary arts such as taekkyeon and tang soo do. Its history is obscured by the historical animosity between the Korean and Japanese peoples following the Second World War.

 

[d1jinx]

just to set the record straight :
Hapkido (also spelled hap ki do or hapki-do) is a dynamic and eclectic Korean martial art. It is a form of self-defense that employs joint locks, techniques of other martial arts, as well as common unskilled attacks. There is also the of use traditional weapons, including the short stick, cane, rope, nunchucku, sword, and staff which vary in emphasis depending on the particular tradition examined.
Hapkido contains both long and close range fighting techniques, utilizing dynamic kicking and percussive hand strikes at longer ranges and pressure point strikes, jointlocks, or throws at closer fighting distances. Hapkido emphasizes circular motion, non-resisting movements, and control of the opponent. Practitioners seek to gain advantage through footwork and body positioning to employ leverage, avoiding the use of strength against strength.
The art evolved from Daitō-ryū Aiki-jūjutsu or a closely related jujutsu system taught by Choi Yong Sul who returned to Korea after WWII, having lived in Japan for 30 years. This system was later combined with kicking and striking techniques of indigenous and contemporary arts such as taekkyeon and tang soo do. Its history is obscured by the historical animosity between the Korean and Japanese peoples following the Second World War.

You have WAY to much time on your hands to be hyperlinking everything in your reply!!!!!!!

But thanks. Informative.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

True or False?

False. Hapkido and taekwondo are rooted in separate arts. Hapkido is summed up well by msmitht below:

just to set the record straight :
Hapkido (also spelled hap ki do or hapki-do) is a dynamic and eclectic Korean martial art. It is a form of self-defense that employs joint locks, techniques of other martial arts, as well as common unskilled attacks. There is also the of use traditional weapons, including the short stick, cane, rope, nunchucku, sword, and staff which vary in emphasis depending on the particular tradition examined.
Hapkido contains both long and close range fighting techniques, utilizing dynamic kicking and percussive hand strikes at longer ranges and pressure point strikes, jointlocks, or throws at closer fighting distances. Hapkido emphasizes circular motion, non-resisting movements, and control of the opponent. Practitioners seek to gain advantage through footwork and body positioning to employ leverage, avoiding the use of strength against strength.
The art evolved from Daitō-ryū Aiki-jūjutsu or a closely related jujutsu system taught by Choi Yong Sul who returned to Korea after WWII, having lived in Japan for 30 years. This system was later combined with kicking and striking techniques of indigenous and contemporary arts such as taekkyeon and tang soo do. Its history is obscured by the historical animosity between the Korean and Japanese peoples following the Second World War.

Taekwondo, on the other hand, has its roots in Shotokan Karate.

I know there's a certain amount of overlap based on who your teacher is and what lineal connections they might have. And then there's the argument that TKD like all MAs is a living creature, free to add on techniques and ideas as warranted.

The overlap is that they both have strikes. Certainly, instructors can add techniques and ideas as they see fit, but these are personalized touches that differ from school to school. But in terms of the art formally changing on a broad level, the major changes are determined by the big orgs., namely the Kukkiwon/WTF and the ITF (all three of them), with the KKW/WTF making the most fundemental changes in shifting to a focus on a kicki-centric martial sport where grapples of any sort are illegal. This is decidedly antithetical to hapkido.

Where is the line drawn or should there even be a line at all? How do you feel about the above premise as a TKDist? And if you're a hapkido person, are you aghast at the thread title at all?

I see this premise as coming from many TKD schools grafting hapkido onto their existing TKD programs in an effort to fill a perceived hole in the curriculum (nothing wrong with that). But TKD with some hapkido is still just TKD with elements from another system grafted on. As I said, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Hapkido as a stand alone art, however, is markedly different from Taekwondo. While Taekwondo is more of a classical striking art which sometimes is taught with a few grapples, while hapkido is really more of a grappling art that has strikes.

Daniel

 

[Manny]

To my of thinking both MA are very related, in TKD we see some trows and joint locks from HKD and in HKD they see some kicks borrowed from TKD. One MA emphatized on kicking and other in joint/lock/trows, both are koreans and we can say there are cousings.

Manny

 

[zDom]

The posters above who claim HKD borrowed kicks from TKD are mistaken. Easy to see how this assumption is made, but it is wrong.

As also noted above, TKD was, at the beginning, pretty much Shotokan. Kicks were pretty much limited to just front, round, side.

Excepting a very few kicks from Japense Jujitsu (probably DRAJJ) imported by Choi, Hapkido got it's kicking from from Kim, Moo hyun and Ji Han Jae.

Kim went to a Buddhist temple to study kicking, then he and Jae trained together and developed a kicking curriculum for HKD over a period of about 8 months.

TKD later borrowed hapkido's kicking to expand the TKD kicking curriculum as the TKD brand was supposed to be all about striking with a focus on kicking. Understandable.

But give credit where credit is due: Kim, Moo hyun and Ji Han Jae

Interesting side note: break out some old "kung fu" movies and take note of all the most dynamic kicking and who is doing it.

Almost 20 years ago (before the Internet had so much stuff on it such as Youtube and Google), my instructor told me that all the great kickers in the classic kung fu movies were REALLY hapkido'ists. I took it with a grain of salt at the time.

Turns out he was RIGHT. I started taking note of who was doing those beautiful spinning heel kicks, axe kicks, etc., then Googling them to see their martial art backgrounds.

For example, the gal who played Bruce Lee's sister in Enter the Dragon who whips out all those beautiful straight leg heel kicks? Angela Mao: hapkido.

Often they "also studied taekwondo." But hapkido is where they got that kicking.

 

[Manny]

The posters above who claim HKD borrowed kicks from TKD are mistaken. Easy to see how this assumption is made, but it is wrong.

As also noted above, TKD was, at the beginning, pretty much Shotokan. Kicks were pretty much limited to just front, round, side.

Excepting a very few kicks from Japense Jujitsu (probably DRAJJ) imported by Choi, Hapkido got it's kicking from from Kim, Moo hyun and Ji Han Jae.

Kim went to a Buddhist temple to study kicking, then he and Jae trained together and developed a kicking curriculum for HKD over a period of about 8 months.

TKD later borrowed hapkido's kicking to expand the TKD kicking curriculum as the TKD brand was supposed to be all about striking with a focus on kicking. Understandable.

But give credit where credit is due: Kim, Moo hyun and Ji Han Jae

Interesting side note: break out some old "kung fu" movies and take note of all the most dynamic kicking and who is doing it.

Almost 20 years ago (before the Internet had so much stuff on it such as Youtube and Google), my instructor told me that all the great kickers in the classic kung fu movies were REALLY hapkido'ists. I took it with a grain of salt at the time.

Turns out he was RIGHT. I started taking note of who was doing those beautiful spinning heel kicks, axe kicks, etc., then Googling them to see their martial art backgrounds.

For example, the gal who played Bruce Lee's sister in Enter the Dragon who whips out all those beautiful straight leg heel kicks? Angela Mao: hapkido.

Often they "also studied taekwondo." But hapkido is where they got that kicking.

Nice info sir. Yes I have no doubt that the kung fu playesr in the movies of the 70's would be korean, and maybe HapKiDoist but it's my understanding that not only HKD were the performs, I already knew there were very nice TKD kickers on the Kung fu movies too.

It's hard to say HKD is not related to TKD and viceversa, both are korean MA and both are like cousings if not borthers literally speaking.

I think if modern TKD incoporated more HKD concepts and principles will be nice.

Manny

 

[msmitht]

You have WAY to much time on your hands to be hyperlinking everything in your reply!!!!!!!

But thanks. Informative.

no...I just cut and pasted from wikpedia! TYVM
BTW...TKD did have its roots in shotokan....just as shotokan had its roots somewhere....and that came from somewhere too.....a never ending circle. Quit arguing and go train!

 

[chrispillertkd]

Taekwon-Do and Hapkido are both seperate arts which have roots in two different Japanese styles (Shotokan and Daito Ryu). Each has been developed by its principal founders and adherents over time so they are now rather different from their parent arts.

It is interesting to note, however, that a good sampling of Hapkido techniques were introduced into the syllabus of Taekwon-Do by Gen. Choi in the early 1970s. This was done with the help of a black belt under Choi, Yong Sul named Chung, Kee Tae. (I believe he was a 6th dan in Hapkido under Choi.) Joint locks and throws were added to the various foot sweeps that already existed in Taekwon-Do as a result of its roots in Shotokan.

There's a whole section in Gen. Choi's 1972 text book (and every book after that) which includes these techniques as a part of Taekwon-Do. Many instructors do not teach these techniques. Many of them are simply unaware that they exist and when they see someone doing a wrist lock or a throw think they are seeing Hapkido. That's a bit like seeing a Taekwon-Doin execute a front kick and calling it Shotokan, IMHO.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Miles]

It is interesting to note, however, that a good sampling of Hapkido techniques were introduced into the syllabus of Taekwon-Do by Gen. Choi in the early 1970s. This was done with the help of a black belt under Choi, Yong Sul named Chung, Kee Tae. (I believe he was a 6th dan in Hapkido under Choi.) Joint locks and throws were added to the various foot sweeps that already existed in Taekwon-Do as a result of its roots in Shotokan.

Pax,

Chris

GM Chung's Hapkido book has some very nice pictures. He's got some incredible knuckles on one hand from kwongo/makiwara training.

GM Park, Hae Man (TKD) and GM Ji, Han Jae (HKD) worked for the ROK Presidential Security forces and there were exchanges of techniques.

As seen just from a sampling of folks on MT, many Taekwondoin get a smattering of Hapkido in their classes or Hapkido is treated within their dojang as a separate discipline. These are still two different arts.

 

[howard]

The posters above who claim HKD borrowed kicks from TKD are mistaken. Easy to see how this assumption is made, but it is wrong...

...Excepting a very few kicks from Japense Jujitsu (probably DRAJJ) imported by Choi, Hapkido got it's kicking from from Kim, Moo hyun and Ji Han Jae.

Scott's right. Ji Han Jae and Kim Mu Hong (or Hyun, or Hwong, depending on your source) developed the kicking repertoire that is characteristic of modern hapkido.

If you're interested, you can see the ten basic kicks that Choi Yong Sul taught one of his longtime direct students on this website:

http://jungkikwan.com/

Go to the English section, then scroll down until you see "HKD KICKS" in the left margin, under the "HAPKIDO" caption.

You'll notice that all of these kicks except one are to targets below the waist.

This kwan is of historical interest because it is one of the very few hapkido kwans that has no link to Ji Han Jae. Its entire curriculum comes directly from Choi.

I am unaware of any technique that hapkido has borrowed from TKD. Certainly none of the Jungkikwan techniques are from TKD.

 

[chrispillertkd]

GM Chung's Hapkido book has some very nice pictures. He's got some incredible knuckles on one hand from kwongo/makiwara training.

Oh, yeah, I saw pictures of his hand in the TKDTimes article he was interviewed for a few years ago. Yow. He'd give Gen. Choi or GM Chuck Sereff a run for their money in the forging department!

Pax,

Chris

 

[zDom]

This kwan is of historical interest because it is one of the very few hapkido kwans that has no link to Ji Han Jae.

Moo Sul Kwan is among those few kwans with no direct link to Ji Han Jae — but we have the dynamic kicking.

We got our kicking from Kim

 

[howard]

Moo Sul Kwan is among those few kwans with no direct link to Ji Han Jae — but we have the dynamic kicking.

We got our kicking from Kim

Interesting... must make you guys unique. Do you know of any other kwans with links only to Kim and not to Ji?

 

[zDom]

Interesting... must make you guys unique. Do you know of any other kwans with links only to Kim and not to Ji?

my research indicates only the original Musulkwan in Korea; Lee H. Park's Moo Sul Kwan in the U.S. (where I train); and a Mu Sul Kwan in (I think) Italy.

Side note: Dr. He Young Kimm's martial art Han Mu Do is based on the Korean Musulkwan's hapkido (but cross polinated, I'm sure, but his association with Kook Sool Won).

But that appears to be the case: no direct links to Ji, although indirectly linked in a roundabout way as Kim and Ji worked together for awhile.

See Dakin Burdick's history of hapkido for more information: Ji Han Jae had no association with Won Kwang Wha's Musulkwan documented, while I find no more mention of Kim Moo Hung after his association with Won Kwang Wha.

I would love to hear what happened to Kim.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I remember when I first started training in tkd and I asked this very question to many of the black belts . The most common response was "hapkido is hapkido with some tkd thrown in and tkd is tkd with some hapkido thrown in". I have since found out that technically this is not true. What I have found though , is that Im yet to meet a high ranked , good quality tkd black belt who is not profficient in many parts of hapkido.

 

[zDom]

I remember when I first started training in tkd and I asked this very question to many of the black belts . The most common response was "hapkido is hapkido with some tkd thrown in and tkd is tkd with some hapkido thrown in". I have since found out that technically this is not true. What I have found though , is that Im yet to meet a high ranked , good quality tkd black belt who is not profficient in many parts of hapkido.

Let me ask a question: if you ran across, lets say, a Wing Chun or Kenpo stylist (either would do) who had a nice, Korean-style thrusting sidekick and a reverse punch, would you then be willing to say he was "proficient in many parts of taekwondo"?

I find that many, if not most, of those who claim to "know some hapkido" do so because they know a wristlock or two, maybe a reaping or hip throw.

I'm pretty sure my front kick, roundhouse kick and sidekick are decent — not to mention my reverse punch and knifehand strike: does that mean I am "proficient in many parts of Shotokan"?

Do you see what I'm getting at here? Why does everyone assume that because they pick up a technique here or there from hapkido (usually second or third hand! Not even from a qualified instructor!) that they have any idea of what hapkido is REALLY all about?



Some define a black belt as mastering the basic of an art — getting the hang of the tools you will need to really begin to study the "art" of a style in the black belt ranks.

And yet so many who are introduced to a wristlock or basic throw and have under 1,000 repetitions — maybe even under 100! — think they know something about the art of hapkido?

I know how to swing a hammer and use a level. I guess that means I'm proficient in many parts of carpentry. Anybody want my advice on a house they are building?

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Let me ask a question: if you ran across, lets say, a Wing Chun or Kenpo stylist (either would do) who had a nice, Korean-style thrusting sidekick and a reverse punch, would you then be willing to say he was "proficient in many parts of taekwondo"?

I find that many, if not most, of those who claim to "know some hapkido" do so because they know a wristlock or two, maybe a reaping or hip throw.

I'm pretty sure my front kick, roundhouse kick and sidekick are decent — not to mention my reverse punch and knifehand strike: does that mean I am "proficient in many parts of Shotokan"?

Do you see what I'm getting at here? Why does everyone assume that because they pick up a technique here or there from hapkido (usually second or third hand! Not even from a qualified instructor!) that they have any idea of what hapkido is REALLY all about?



Some define a black belt as mastering the basic of an art — getting the hang of the tools you will need to really begin to study the "art" of a style in the black belt ranks.

And yet so many who are introduced to a wristlock or basic throw and have under 1,000 repetitions — maybe even under 100! — think they know something about the art of hapkido?

I know how to swing a hammer and use a level. I guess that means I'm proficient in many parts of carpentry. Anybody want my advice on a house they are building?

I would definetely not class someone who knows a few wrist locks as being profficient in hapkido. Im saying that the good quality tkd blackbelts I know actually know quite a lot of hapkido not just a couple of moves. I cant speak on behalf of all clubs obviously but just the black belts I know. My instructor is a 6th dan in tkd and is very profficient in hapkido.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I think that this commonality of hapkido amongst high belt taekwondoist is likely due to that fact that once one has been training in one art for a good length of time, they will often branch out and train in other arts while still remaining with their first art.

Hapkido is a natural choice for the taekwondoist; another KMA, kicks and strikes, along with grapples, throws, and comprehensive nakbop (I believe that that is the Korean word for ukemi; could be wrong). Some systems even have groundfighting (ours does, but I do not get that until the next belt level).

Hapkido does not have the same emphasis on sport that Taekwondo does, so it offers the taekwondoist something different that does not interfere with what they are already doing.

Daniel

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I think that this commonality of hapkido amongst high belt taekwondoist is likely due to that fact that once one has been training in one art for a good length of time, they will often branch out and train in other arts while still remaining with their first art.

Hapkido is a natural choice for the taekwondoist; another KMA, kicks and strikes, along with grapples, throws, and comprehensive nakbop (I believe that that is the Korean word for ukemi; could be wrong). Some systems even have groundfighting (ours does, but I do not get that until the next belt level).

Hapkido does not have the same emphasis on sport that Taekwondo does, so it offers the taekwondoist something different that does not interfere with what they are already doing.

Daniel

I agree. I think it is the natural progression for a lot of people who continue to train for years in tkd. I know for a lot of guys as they get older it is simply not realistic that they can continue doing all the spinning kics and jumping moves without doing a lot of injuries. It is usually at this stage that I see the older students start to spend more time on the hapkido side of things , particularly the wrist locks , grabs etc. At my club the master spent much time studying hapkido in korea before coming to australia and while technically speaking he is a tkd practitioner he is very well versed in hapkido and he passes his knowledge of hapkido on to the higher belts who spend just as much time doing hapkido as they do tkd , it is even a grading requirement from black belt and above. Technically , though , our master has no rank in hapkido.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Our GM is acually higher ranked in hapkido and kendo than he is in taekwondo, though he is a high dan in that as well. I think that he would focus on hapkido and kendo, but taekwondo brings in the most students.

Daniel