...time to reconsider some techniques?

[frank raud]

One of the big difficulties in defending against the type of attacks seen in the videos is that the knifeman is using his lead arm to grab the victim or uses it as a barrier to keep the victim at bay as he pistons the knife back and forth from his rear arm
Consequently the victim is in range to be stabbed , but can't really get in close enough to get a good tight two handed control on the knifeman's weapon arm.

Any defence needs to address the problem of getting that front arm out of the way first so that the defender can get in close and get a good capture of the knife arm.

Normally with the knife arm forward I prefer to use a two arm block and then capture with double under hooks and then start firing knee strikes into the groin and quads.

But with the knifeman using that free arm as a barrier it definitely presents a huge problem in trying to get in and gain control of the knife arm.

You might be able to to do a low heel kick into his lead shin and that could cause enough pain/distraction so you can get in that way , but probably easier said than done if your being jostled and trying to block the knife arm at the same time.

A very difficult situation any way you look at it , all I can suggest is that you use the edge of your hand/forearm to block as hard as you can on his forearm , you might get lucky and shock his arm enough to cause him to drop the knife.

A possible counter would be to grab the forward arm and pull across your body(left hand grabbing left hand), essentially an arm drag. With sufficient pull and some footwork, you would find yourself behind an off balanced BG, with options for rear chokes, kicking out back of knee, takedowns, etc. But again, this would have to be a trained reaction, and the videos dont show trained defenders.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Any time we grappled and were able to control the knife hand we would expect to disarm the opponent of his knife, then use it immediately on the opponent, as deep and long as possible (yes it will hurt him).

As well as possibly get you arrested. The attacker is now disarmed and you're not defending yourself, but attacking him with a deadly weapon yourself. Not saying you would not be right to do so morally; but the law might not agree in this case. This was brought home to me in the links I posted yesterday. A bit eye-opening.

A defense of a straight or low upward thrust would be to block and trap with both hands open and thumbs crossed, grabbing the wrist, stepping under and through with the opposite foot, pivoting outside as the wrist is raised, and then brought down forcefully into the opponent's liver.

I guess I'd have to see it done to think it could be effective against the 'prison rush' stabbing style we saw in the video. Not disagreeing with you, but after watching that, I watched several videos online by this fellow that seems to debunk knife defense scenarios. He's challenged some real experts in knife defense to stop him from stabbing them and none of them have been able to so far. I could be wrong; just a bit agape at what I've been seeing.

However, in the videos, there is usually little time to discern an attack is coming, and that means there may be less time to execute a viable defense. I agree with comments above that the victims seem not to be trained in knife defense. Also, that even if they were, there is little time to react, and your opponent only has to get in one good blow to the abdomen or under the ribs to do great damage or kill. As to one victim falling and not trying to fight back, I only know one person who was stabbed in the abdomen, unexpectedly, as his assailant ran past him from behind. Put him on his knees immediately due to pain, and he couldn't get up without help. He was a man in good shape, used to absorbing pain, but that got him.

I don't like the thought of knives coming at me. I would try almost anything to try and prevent someone from attacking me with a knife, but would certainly attempt to use a technique I have learned if that was all that was open.

Agreed. I suspect that the 'prison yard rush' is the most common knife attack there is; and perhaps the hardest to defend against. And I'm not sure that 'martial arts' skills really apply in such cases, other than to apply good footwork, balance, and keep calm as you move the blade hand and get around it. Other than that, it looks like it's almost luck of the draw. You could be Bruce Lee and get gutted.

 

[frank raud]

Agreed. I suspect that the 'prison yard rush' is the most common knife attack there is; and perhaps the hardest to defend against. And I'm not sure that 'martial arts' skills really apply in such cases, other than to apply good footwork, balance, and keep calm as you move the blade hand and get around it. Other than that, it looks like it's almost luck of the draw. You could be Bruce Lee and get gutted.

Ever wonder why so few defenses are shown against a "prison yard rush" as opposed to say a straight thrust with the knife hand left extended for the good guy to apply his counter to? It aint so pretty and chance of pulling it off a low percentage.

 

[mook jong man]

A possible counter would be to grab the forward arm and pull across your body(left hand grabbing left hand), essentially an arm drag. With sufficient pull and some footwork, you would find yourself behind an off balanced BG, with options for rear chokes, kicking out back of knee, takedowns, etc. But again, this would have to be a trained reaction, and the videos dont show trained defenders.

The arm drag sounds like a very good idea to me , it off balances the attacker and also gets you off the line of attack all in one movement.

 

[frank raud]

The arm drag sounds like a very good idea to me , it off balances the attacker and also gets you off the line of attack all in one movement.

One of the purposes for having the blade in the rear hand is to use the lead hand to grab and control, it is not uncommon to grab the opposing shoulder or arm to offbalance victim before stabbing commences. What good for the goose.......

 

[MJS]

As well as possibly get you arrested. The attacker is now disarmed and you're not defending yourself, but attacking him with a deadly weapon yourself. Not saying you would not be right to do so morally; but the law might not agree in this case. This was brought home to me in the links I posted yesterday. A bit eye-opening.

Yup.

I guess I'd have to see it done to think it could be effective against the 'prison rush' stabbing style we saw in the video. Not disagreeing with you, but after watching that, I watched several videos online by this fellow that seems to debunk knife defense scenarios. He's challenged some real experts in knife defense to stop him from stabbing them and none of them have been able to so far. I could be wrong; just a bit agape at what I've been seeing.



Agreed. I suspect that the 'prison yard rush' is the most common knife attack there is; and perhaps the hardest to defend against. And I'm not sure that 'martial arts' skills really apply in such cases, other than to apply good footwork, balance, and keep calm as you move the blade hand and get around it. Other than that, it looks like it's almost luck of the draw. You could be Bruce Lee and get gutted.

This is why I cringe at alot of the knife stuff taught today. Obviously we're going to get cut/stabbed, though hopefully not bad enough to prevent us from fighting, but anyways....returning the knife into the guy aside, I think one of the better options is the 2 handed grab. Now, if the guy is using his free hand, which is a good possibility, I'd say side step if possible to get off the line of attack.

What were you thinking as far as options go?

 

[Buka]

I think it comes down to is what each of us are good at. If we have a good grab, jam, arm drag, leg check etc, then that's probably what's best. Can't just pull things out of the hat that haven't been drilled.

Some of this becomes moot if you have a fast access blade of your own and have trained knife, particularly a slashing-from-the-draw combo while fading to his outside. Two can Ginsu as well as one.

 

[Blindside]

My kali group works this attack frequently, and in defending against it the defenders "die".... frequently. But some things seem to work, using the left hand (assuming a right hand attacker here) to jam the highline thrusts (like a hook punch) at the tricep or intercepting the lowline (uppercut thrust) at the forearm with your own "counter thrust" motion. I have had better success going inside the jamming lead hand arm to get control of the weapon arm. How and what you control at that point is important but we try to shift outside the weapon arm with possible, usually after attaining a two on one grip to the attackers weapon hand. You can't really simulate the surprise attack in a training scenario, so the standard caveat of "nothing you do in training is real" is definitely a major factor here.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

What were you thinking as far as options go?

Well, I have been playing this over and over in my mind; talked it over with some dojomates last night in the dojo as well.

First thought; gotta stay upright. Fall over with him on top and you're done. You'll never get up again.

Second thought; the attacker's arm, to pump like a piston over and over in the same thrust, has to be nearly on automatic pilot. The attacker isn't focusing the blade, he's focusing on your responses; the blade hand is on auto-pilot. So get the arm away (as many others have said here) as quickly as possible. I doubt my ability to grab, trap, or otherwise immobilize a powerful arm motion like that; the mechanics are wrong for the victim; it's like trying to stop a train from the front - literally - his blade hand is moving like an old steam train moved its wheels, chug, chug, chug.

So it seems to me that the thing to do is turn his arm or turn his body or both; if he's right-handed, turn him to his left. This exposes you as he passes, but it's also the fastest way for you to pass the blade and behind it, and get behind him. And that, I think, is critical. You must get behind the blade, and optimally behind the attacker. I could see doing that with a left-to-right block if applied behind his elbow fast enough to spin him or at least move his arm to his left. Get your left foot out there past him and PASS! Don't worry so much about immobilizing his arm or knife at that point; get it pointed away from you and you behind it. He has a good range of motion in front of him; little to the sides, and none to the rear. He simply cannot stab behind himself effectively, he has to turn to face his victim.

Once behind him, the options are open. Running away is one. But if you cannot; say because you doubt your ability or you are in an enclosed area or you are injured already, then you must take this bastard down NOW. You can't dance with him, so whatever you do, it must be fast and it must be a finishing move. I dunno there. I'm trying to think what I could do whilst holding my guts in with my hands, as if I had already been stabbed one or more times. Low kick to the inside of the knees, maybe, followed by pouncing on him, using my weight, and pounding his head into the ground as many times as I'm capable of doing until he stops wiggling or I stop breathing. But whatever I do, I can't let him turn around on me; he'll never let me pass again, and he'll do me in. It is all-important that I stay behind him until he can't move.

 

[Blindside]

I've seen some of the DLO clips on youtube. I liked what I saw. I've been tempted to buy the dvds, but havent. Have you seen them? If so, I'd be interested in your thoughts on them.

Good vids, very worth the price. I am very familiar with the core concept of the technique (there is a reason why the vid calls it the "Pekiti hand") but a couple of tips were new to me, particularly one on head placement. Good stuff.

 

[oftheherd1]

As well as possibly get you arrested. The attacker is now disarmed and you're not defending yourself, but attacking him with a deadly weapon yourself. Not saying you would not be right to do so morally; but the law might not agree in this case. This was brought home to me in the links I posted yesterday. A bit eye-opening.

That is certainly a possibility. The exact circumstances of the attack must be considered. If there is more than one attacker, or you fear the attacker may still be able to attack you, it would be more justifiable. You may also be able to argue that you were attacked and that your training "took over" and you reacted as you did, including cutting the attacker with his own knife, based on that training and the sudden unpreparedness of the attack. It might work, or it might not. There were reportedly courts that once held any damage inflicted by a MA was beyond defense due to being a "trained MA."

I guess I'd have to see it done to think it could be effective against the 'prison rush' stabbing style we saw in the video.
....

You might look from about 36 seconds on the following. It purports to be Japanese, but is the way I was first taught up to the point of stabbing the attacker. There was no follow up for a shoulder throw when I was taught, but I see no problem with it. Later, my GM showed me a modification there the knife hand was moved to the inside (to the defender's right for a right hand thrust), rather than stopped in the straight in thrust.

http://www.bahadzubughq.com/forum/index.php?topic=264.0

 

[fenglong]

You might look from about 36 seconds on the following. It purports to be Japanese, but is the way I was first taught up to the point of stabbing the attacker. There was no follow up for a shoulder throw when I was taught, but I see no problem with it. Later, my GM showed me a modification there the knife hand was moved to the inside (to the defender's right for a right hand thrust), rather than stopped in the straight in thrust.

http://www.bahadzubughq.com/forum/index.php?topic=264.0

The way this is practiced is usually against a single forward stab, but not against forward and instant backward motions with full force, it is somewhat like trying to grab and lock the jab of a boxer.

 

[oftheherd1]

The way this is practiced is usually against a single forward stab, but not against forward and instant backward motions with full force, it is somewhat like trying to grab and lock the jab of a boxer.

Yes, but follow the technique through. Done at speed, as the attacker pulls his hand back, you are pushing his hand back and down as well as you step through and pivot, the stab the opponent with his own knife. The video shows more a stab in the stomach. I was taught in the liver. Dissect it as you will, but make it work or study something else. I don't promise it will work for you or anyone else. But I don't think you will be wrong to add it to your arsenal. Perhaps you can describe or demonstrate another that is even better. I would love to add another tool to my kit as well.

 

[David43515]

Good vids, very worth the price. I am very familiar with the core concept of the technique (there is a reason why the vid calls it the "Pekiti hand") but a couple of tips were new to me, particularly one on head placement. Good stuff.

I thought they were well done too. I`ve never specifically done Pekiti Tirsia (I`d love to if I had the chance)but I was familiar with alot of the basic movement from practicing other FMA. I won`t go into specifics of how-to because it`s not my material, but I`ll try to comment on what I thought were some of the many good points. 1) It`s based on the idea that an attaker is armed whether you`ve seen the weapon or not. And the material works well for most attacks coming into either the high or middle line. 2) It assumes that your attacker is throwing fast repeated attacks and may switch hands if you get control of the weapon arm. 3) It uses broad parts of the body to stop the attack and get control of the arm rather than having to catch it by just grabbing a fast-moving slippery arm. 4) If you or your attacker are moving into each other, even if you can`t grab the weapon arm right off the bat you`re forcing it to move slower and have less power with each stab. At the same time you`re protecting your vitals, and messing up the attacker`s balance. 5) Rather than focusing on specific follow ups they show you how to get into a safe position where you can do whatever kind of follow ups you know and preffer. While getting into this safe position there`s a high chance you`ve either gotten control of the weapon arm or knocked him on his butt. 6) They point out where things can go wrong and offer solutions that get you right back on track. And 7) like all Dog Brother productions "If you see it taught, you see it fought". In other words at different stages through the seminar you see people who just learned the material that weekend pressure testing it again and again. Denny uses slow motion replay to show what was done right, what common mistakes people made, and where they could have had a chance to either break contact or draw their own weapon.
It doesn`t claim to be the end all be all super style, but it lives up to it`s claim that people who used the material in simulated attacks "died less often" than people who didn`t. It gives you a solid meathod to work with and builds the skills to make it work. If you`ve done any FMA, Silat, or Wing Chun I think you`ll see familiar material in a new light. If I were teaching I`d deffinately add this material to my program (concept based material is easy to add if you think about it) and I`d reccomend it to anyone working in law enforcement or corrections.

 

[mook jong man]

Here's a variation in using the front arm to control as he stabs , but in this one he is using his forearm to keep the defender wedged up against a wall as he starts the typical sewing machine action.

WARNING: Lot of swearing in this clip.


[video=youtube_share;E61jnJe_1SI]http://youtu.be/E61jnJe_1SI[/video]

 

[chinto]

first it will not be a fight usually if a knife is involved, its an AMBUSH!! AMBUSH IS ABOUT KILLING! so, if you see a blade and can run, RUN!!! put something solid between him/her and you if you can and run !!! if you cant run, you better get mad dog mean and try to KILL OR MAIM this individual as fast and viciously as you can! Its now for all the marbles! You must assume that one of you will now DIE! get control of the knife arm if possible, or positioned so he cant cut and stab you as much as you can possibly do, and do maximum damage as fast as you can! other then that good luck. something like a prison sewing machine attack from ambush is very hard to survive.

 

[oftheherd1]

Mook Jong Man - that is a good video. I cannot listen to the sound at the moment, but it shows what can happen and the difficulties involved. As I said yesterday, there is no attempt to manipulate the pinning hand. There are several that will turn the attacker's body away such that the knife hand cannot be used. There is also a good one I have mentioned before where you have little room to manuver, such as being against a wall, where you strike the opponents forearm with your forearm, redircting the knife thrust to your side as you step forward and simutaneously strike the opponents upper arm with a dragon's punch. At a minimun it will give you time to react in a different way, hopefully it will cause the opponent to drop the knife.

However, there isn't much time to react with any of the techniques. That is one thing I was always taught was to react quickly and forcefully. It isn't always easy to do, as if you walk around ready to grab anyone who makes a possible move on you and rip their arm off, your circle of friends is going to diminish rapidly.

 

[fenglong]

Here's a variation in using the front arm to control as he stabs , but in this one he is using his forearm to keep the defender wedged up against a wall as he starts the typical sewing machine action.

WARNING: Lot of swearing in this clip.

[video=youtube_share;E61jnJe_1SI]http://youtu.be/E61jnJe_1SI[/video]

Thanks for sharing this, I hope it will open some eyes.

As for me, I got another reminder how good some Wing Chun concepts should work in real situations.

 

[Buka]

Great video.

 

[OKenpo942]

I think in many of these situations, the victims never saw the knife to begin with. The attack was on a completely unsuspecting and defenseless person. Kinda hard to defend what you can't see. So, I ask, what technique isn't working? How many arts teach how to defend against an attack that you can't see to begin with? How can we even assume that these victims were even trained in any sort of knife defense and were even attempting to utilize such techniques? These victims didn't seem to be trained to me. How can a technique fail if you don't know any techniques? Am I missing something here? Maybe I'm just tired.

James