...time to reconsider some techniques?
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WingChunIan
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some of those attacks would test most defences. Does go to show that trying to wrestle / restrain a guy with a knife if futile. Turning his lights out fast is the only realistic option. In the clip where the guy was bent over basically holding on with one hand and blocking with the other, he survived for a while if only he'd let go of his hold and smacked the guy whilst he blocked he might have prevailed. Being realistic, someone comes at you like in many of the clips then you've got to face reality and expect to get hurt.
WC_lun
Senior Master
1st rule of realistic knife defense. You are going to get cut.
I am no expert. However, from the appearance of many of those videos, the stabbings were done as a form of an uppercut to the body, thrown underhanded and repeated over and over again to the victim's midsection. One would normally do whatever one could to keep away from the knife and thus, the knife arm. But it would appear that the appropriate defense in such a case would be to attack and immobilize the knife arm as quickly as possible, rather than blocking as one might a punch or a kick. Lock onto the hand holding the blade and immobilize, trap, or cause a release would seem to be most appropriate.
Some of the other attacks were more 'cutting' than stabbing, such as the throat slashing and the person waving the knife around like a sword.
Those stabbings very much resembled videos of prison knifings (shanking) I have seen; the difference only being that the prison shankings are primarily done from behind and into vital organs by people who have studied anatomy enough to know where they are. They are hard to combat.
Thoughts?
Some of the other attacks were more 'cutting' than stabbing, such as the throat slashing and the person waving the knife around like a sword.
Those stabbings very much resembled videos of prison knifings (shanking) I have seen; the difference only being that the prison shankings are primarily done from behind and into vital organs by people who have studied anatomy enough to know where they are. They are hard to combat.
Thoughts?
I dont see what this changes - Unless certain Organisations have some silly ideas about Knife Defense.
Grabbing the Knife Wielding Limb is still a Good Idea so long as You plan on using that as a chance to Strike.
Dodging is still a Good Idea.
And its still completely possible to prevail.
I cant help but think it would have been easy to Grab His Forearm, then start throwing Punches.
Instead He tried to Grab with both Hands.
Grabbing the Knife Wielding Limb is still a Good Idea so long as You plan on using that as a chance to Strike.
Dodging is still a Good Idea.
And its still completely possible to prevail.
I cant help but think it would have been easy to Grab His Forearm, then start throwing Punches.
Instead He tried to Grab with both Hands.
Could you describe how you immobilize a person's arm in such a fashion with only one hand? I'm a little unclear on that.
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/knifelies.html
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frank raud
Master of Arts
What techniques would you like to re consider? A video showing untrained people being attacked is not much to go on, in reference to possible techniques. Do real life attacks not look as clean and crisp as in the dojo? Yep. Do you see anyone in those video clips who appears to ave trained in knife defense?
Not Immobilise - That was a poor choice of words if I used it.
I more mean, redirect. Even if Youre not redirecting it.
Keeping it from moving towards you, either by moving it to the side slightly, or moving yourself to the side, whilst operating with your other hand, or another limb, or somesuch.
As a random example off the top of my head, bearing in mind it is rather late at night and this may come out a bit unusually, so feel free to rephrase some parts if they dont make grammatical sense; from any frontal, be it straight, upward, or downward or anywere in between stabbing action,
EDIT: I just trimmed out a whole ton of useless information that I then went on to explain 10x better below. I really need to keep explanations simpler.
Simply: Block with the opposite hand to the side you see the knife on pushing away with the palm of your hand, if possible get a punch or push in, then try and get out of the situation altogether.
Moving to the side and moving to the side and back shouldnt be too different, as a persons arms are only so long, and a Knife is at the end of that arm. They need to be close enough to stab You, as this Video more or less supports.
For that matter, this method would probably work fine based on the Scenario in the Video, since the attacker was seen coming well in advance to the attack. Long enough to perceive the threat, as the victim to some degree at least did.
Now feel free to inevitably pick out the parts of this ill have to rephrase;
Or, maybe nothing will be. Who knows.
Also, one other Lie to add to that list would be that Knives make You an ultimate supreme killing machine
EDIT:
I cant help but think trying to get at least one blow is safer all round, since just running right away could well lead to being stabbed in the side or back whilst you make such an attempt, as the attacker is already attacking. If Theyre struck, theres an interruption at least, preventing them from just immediately stabbing again, probably whilst moving forward if they see you trying to get away.
^^A bit of what I edited out, which is probably somewhat useful for explanatives.
I think I understand; get the knife away from you and get around behind it. Hit the bad guy.
Yeah, pretty much. Im had the most trouble explaining the Palm Block/Push/Grab - I can get back to You on that tomorrow in the morning if You want
Yeah, pretty much. Im had the most trouble explaining the Palm Block/Push/Grab - I can get back to You on that tomorrow in the morning if You want
No, I get it. We have a kata with that move in it, Kusanku.
While it might not be applied in this manner, in Kusanku, we step back into a cat stance, draping the left hand palm up over the leading thigh (sometimes called "dragon's tongue"). Then set the heel down, step over with the right leg while pushing with the left hand and turning the palm over. Followed by a nukite (knife hand) to the throat with the right hand.
[video=youtube_share;0I4mxX_4RUs]http://youtu.be/0I4mxX_4RUs[/video]
1:16 to 1:18 in this video. It's not really obvious, but I think it describes the motion you are talking about. Let me know if I'm on the wrong track.
David43515
Master Black Belt
Mark Denny at Dog Brothers has some really good material on this subject that focuses on just those things. It`s available in a DVD of a seminar he did with Gabe Suarez called "Die Less Often". It covers a 2 day seminar they did working specifically on these stabs and slashes coming in fast and often from the strong side.
Youre right - Its not obvious
But that seems like an akin logic - Not quite how Id do it, but.
Now that Im less asleep, ill try this:
From, lets say, a Cat Stance, with the Hands as He has them and whatnot;
Block with the Right Hand whilst stepping out and forward (Not very far. Just, out. Like, a Cat Stance length out, except not in a Cat Stance) with the Right Food, Punch with the Left Hand, keeping the Right Hand on wherever it hit. Optimally this should be a grab, but even if it gets your hand impaled, the point I suppose is to prevent the knife from being redirected towards your new position.
I feel theres less risk of getting your hand cut, since whilst using the left would be faster, its also on the Knifes route. Plus, the Right Hand can be the same block for any height, just being adjusted as needed.
The rest would be situational. If You can just run off from there, by all means. That said, You might follow up with more strikes if the first one was effective. It only needs to be damaging - Not engagement ending. Just enough to not get stabbed whilst you take off - As I detailed in Edit 2.
Now, that said, the movement shown in the Kata is, in many ways, the same. I just like to step out and forward instead of straight forward, and prefer blocking with the more distant hand, to make the Counter more reliable. And Id favor a Punch over a Knife Hand.
That said, I didnt overlook where You said it wasnt used in that manner
EDIT: For simplicity; Think same thing, but with the hands swapped, and stepping out and forward.
Agreed with everything here, especially the bold. IMHO, this is why I feel that scenario training is very important. Think about it...the majority of times when a knife defense is done, a) both parties know what type of attack is coming, and b) the knife is already visable. Now, initially, theres nothing wrong with this. However, there comes a time when unrehearsed, unknown attacks, have to be worked.
But yeah, I like the idea of controlling the arm first, then working for the other stuff.
I've seen techs that had a grab, some that had a grab and immediate counter shots, and some that had a strong, solid grab, would take the badguy off balance and then start working counter shots, disarms, etc.
I've seen some of the DLO clips on youtube. I liked what I saw. I've been tempted to buy the dvds, but havent. Have you seen them? If so, I'd be interested in your thoughts on them.
mook jong man
Senior Master
One of the big difficulties in defending against the type of attacks seen in the videos is that the knifeman is using his lead arm to grab the victim or uses it as a barrier to keep the victim at bay as he pistons the knife back and forth from his rear arm
Consequently the victim is in range to be stabbed , but can't really get in close enough to get a good tight two handed control on the knifeman's weapon arm.
Any defence needs to address the problem of getting that front arm out of the way first so that the defender can get in close and get a good capture of the knife arm.
Normally with the knife arm forward I prefer to use a two arm block and then capture with double under hooks and then start firing knee strikes into the groin and quads.
But with the knifeman using that free arm as a barrier it definitely presents a huge problem in trying to get in and gain control of the knife arm.
You might be able to to do a low heel kick into his lead shin and that could cause enough pain/distraction so you can get in that way , but probably easier said than done if your being jostled and trying to block the knife arm at the same time.
A very difficult situation any way you look at it , all I can suggest is that you use the edge of your hand/forearm to block as hard as you can on his forearm , you might get lucky and shock his arm enough to cause him to drop the knife.
Consequently the victim is in range to be stabbed , but can't really get in close enough to get a good tight two handed control on the knifeman's weapon arm.
Any defence needs to address the problem of getting that front arm out of the way first so that the defender can get in close and get a good capture of the knife arm.
Normally with the knife arm forward I prefer to use a two arm block and then capture with double under hooks and then start firing knee strikes into the groin and quads.
But with the knifeman using that free arm as a barrier it definitely presents a huge problem in trying to get in and gain control of the knife arm.
You might be able to to do a low heel kick into his lead shin and that could cause enough pain/distraction so you can get in that way , but probably easier said than done if your being jostled and trying to block the knife arm at the same time.
A very difficult situation any way you look at it , all I can suggest is that you use the edge of your hand/forearm to block as hard as you can on his forearm , you might get lucky and shock his arm enough to cause him to drop the knife.
I'm looking at the footage again and again and in the first several clips, I notice the same things. From what I've been able to Google, it appears that this method is often called the 'prison rush'.
The attacker comes from an oblique angle to the victim, rather than head on. Often from the victim's left front (I understand that prison shankings often come from the rear, but these are frontal attacks).
The attacker comes in on a run after holding distance for a short period of time.
The attacker is low, sometimes almost doubled over.
The knife is either hidden from the victim's view or carried very close to the attacker's body, so there is no silhouette of a knife blade.
The attacker engages the victim using a strike that is close to a tackle. The blade is aimed for the midsection, the motion is stabbing rather than slashing, the attacker uses his free arm as a bumper or barrier to keep his knife hand from being grabbed (or even well seen), and the thrusts are vicious and repeated as fast as possible. I counted something like 20 thrusts in under 2 seconds on one.
The motion of the attacker's knife arm is not unlike a boxer's uppercut to the body.
http://www.myboxingcoach.com/boxing-how-to-guide-2/
The difference is, a boxer taking a body punch like that defends by dropping his elbows to protect his midsection; it's understood that he's going to take some damage to his midsection, but can withstand it due to training and conditioning. He's more concerned about damage over the length of the fight, not immediate damage that causes him to bleed out and drop to the floor.
A knife victim taking even one stab wound to the abdomen is likely to be in severe pain, bleeding profusely, and is certainly not going to be able to absorb multiple stab wounds to the abdomen without bleeding out quickly. And if he drops his elbows to protect his abdomen, the next stab attack may come to his head or neck, as the attacker simply moves his underhanded uppercut to a right cross motion.
From the speed of the thrust, it almost appears impossible to engage that knife hand and trap it or lock it. I can't see a block as being effective, especially if taking repeated powerful thrusting stab wounds.
One of the links I posted yesterday said something that resonated with me; this is not a fight; this is warfare. The attacker is not going to stand toe-to-toe with you and duke it out, or wait for you to draw your gun or knife or get into a fighting stance. They are trying to kill you, now, immediately, and they won't give you even a second to take a deep breath, let alone draw a weapon.
If you block the attacking knife thrust, you may take it in the arm or knee or whatever you used to block with. And it is immediately withdrawn and the stabbing thrust is engaged again, over and over. I do not think you can take multiple stab wounds to the arm or knees or upper thighs and still keep blocking; like I said, I counted 20 stabbing thrusts in 2 seconds on at least one of those attacks. I am not sure you'd be able to perform a lock or a trap on that thrusting arm either; as others have noted on this thread, the attacker has that free hand out as a block, bludgeon, and entangling device of a sort. The victim might also find himself covered in his own blood; and I do have some experience with blood; it's very slippery.
From what little I am gathering, as I puzzle over this, the attack most reminds me of the attack of a Great White Shark. Minor circling outside the perimeter of the prey's senses or ability to defend, then a straight-line, very fast, very powerful attack, with the weapon only becoming evident in the last moment before the impact. It's really hard to engage with that, hard to defend against.
Again, from one of the links I posted yesterday, I read what appears to be some good advice; run away. Do not let yourself be cornered (and there are lots of ways a martial artist can train to get out of corners), and go as fast as you can away from the threat.
The other response I read about that makes sense if simply running away won't work, is to do whatever you can to get around the blade. Push the attacker's arm laterally and spin or step past him, get that arm (and the repeated thrusts) pointing somewhere other than at your gut. Once behind the attacker or to the side of his arm, do whatever you can to disable the attacker immediately. The link I read seems to believe strongly in driving the attacker's head into the pavement, which seems it would be rather effective if you could get them down on the ground.
So I now doubt my initial assessment. Grabbing or trapping the incoming arm that holds the blade simply may not work. Deflecting the arm and getting around it might.
However, I have engaged in precisely one struggle for a knife with an angry man in my life, and it was nothing more than a wrestling match in the end; with multiple military police (including me) rolling around on the sand with one drunken Marine armed with a bayonet. I was not rushed by someone intent on murdering me with a knife. So my thoughts on this are just this; thoughts.
The attacker comes from an oblique angle to the victim, rather than head on. Often from the victim's left front (I understand that prison shankings often come from the rear, but these are frontal attacks).
The attacker comes in on a run after holding distance for a short period of time.
The attacker is low, sometimes almost doubled over.
The knife is either hidden from the victim's view or carried very close to the attacker's body, so there is no silhouette of a knife blade.
The attacker engages the victim using a strike that is close to a tackle. The blade is aimed for the midsection, the motion is stabbing rather than slashing, the attacker uses his free arm as a bumper or barrier to keep his knife hand from being grabbed (or even well seen), and the thrusts are vicious and repeated as fast as possible. I counted something like 20 thrusts in under 2 seconds on one.
The motion of the attacker's knife arm is not unlike a boxer's uppercut to the body.
http://www.myboxingcoach.com/boxing-how-to-guide-2/
The difference is, a boxer taking a body punch like that defends by dropping his elbows to protect his midsection; it's understood that he's going to take some damage to his midsection, but can withstand it due to training and conditioning. He's more concerned about damage over the length of the fight, not immediate damage that causes him to bleed out and drop to the floor.
A knife victim taking even one stab wound to the abdomen is likely to be in severe pain, bleeding profusely, and is certainly not going to be able to absorb multiple stab wounds to the abdomen without bleeding out quickly. And if he drops his elbows to protect his abdomen, the next stab attack may come to his head or neck, as the attacker simply moves his underhanded uppercut to a right cross motion.
From the speed of the thrust, it almost appears impossible to engage that knife hand and trap it or lock it. I can't see a block as being effective, especially if taking repeated powerful thrusting stab wounds.
One of the links I posted yesterday said something that resonated with me; this is not a fight; this is warfare. The attacker is not going to stand toe-to-toe with you and duke it out, or wait for you to draw your gun or knife or get into a fighting stance. They are trying to kill you, now, immediately, and they won't give you even a second to take a deep breath, let alone draw a weapon.
If you block the attacking knife thrust, you may take it in the arm or knee or whatever you used to block with. And it is immediately withdrawn and the stabbing thrust is engaged again, over and over. I do not think you can take multiple stab wounds to the arm or knees or upper thighs and still keep blocking; like I said, I counted 20 stabbing thrusts in 2 seconds on at least one of those attacks. I am not sure you'd be able to perform a lock or a trap on that thrusting arm either; as others have noted on this thread, the attacker has that free hand out as a block, bludgeon, and entangling device of a sort. The victim might also find himself covered in his own blood; and I do have some experience with blood; it's very slippery.
From what little I am gathering, as I puzzle over this, the attack most reminds me of the attack of a Great White Shark. Minor circling outside the perimeter of the prey's senses or ability to defend, then a straight-line, very fast, very powerful attack, with the weapon only becoming evident in the last moment before the impact. It's really hard to engage with that, hard to defend against.
Again, from one of the links I posted yesterday, I read what appears to be some good advice; run away. Do not let yourself be cornered (and there are lots of ways a martial artist can train to get out of corners), and go as fast as you can away from the threat.
The other response I read about that makes sense if simply running away won't work, is to do whatever you can to get around the blade. Push the attacker's arm laterally and spin or step past him, get that arm (and the repeated thrusts) pointing somewhere other than at your gut. Once behind the attacker or to the side of his arm, do whatever you can to disable the attacker immediately. The link I read seems to believe strongly in driving the attacker's head into the pavement, which seems it would be rather effective if you could get them down on the ground.
So I now doubt my initial assessment. Grabbing or trapping the incoming arm that holds the blade simply may not work. Deflecting the arm and getting around it might.
However, I have engaged in precisely one struggle for a knife with an angry man in my life, and it was nothing more than a wrestling match in the end; with multiple military police (including me) rolling around on the sand with one drunken Marine armed with a bayonet. I was not rushed by someone intent on murdering me with a knife. So my thoughts on this are just this; thoughts.
oftheherd1
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When I was taught Hapkido, we were taught at the red belt level, several knife defenses. They included defenses against downward stabs, inside to outside slashes, outside to inside slashes, and straight thrusts. As with most Hapkido techniques I was taught, they require great speed and accuracy, as you will be moving in close to your opponent. Most of the videos seem to show an unexpected attack. Whether knife or punch or kick, that is always hardest to defend; the sudden unprovoked attack. Properly done however, all the defenses are very effective and most are devastating to the opponent. The problem of course, is in getting them propertly done.
One thing to consider is if the non-knife hand is presented to you, we would consider it fair game for being grappled and force applied in such a way that the knife bearing hand can't get to you. Stepping to the side is a good idea, but must be done quickly so the attacker cannon redirect the blow mid-strike. A block at the same time will help. A strike to the wrist or forearm is good if possible, but a strike to the side of the biceps with the non-blocking hand is probably better... or the neck or temple. A dragon's head punch is very effective in causing pain and/or cramps to muscle. Any time we grappled and were able to control the knife hand we would expect to disarm the opponent of his knife, then use it immediately on the opponent, as deep and long as possible (yes it will hurt him).
A defense of a straight or low upward thrust would be to block and trap with both hands open and thumbs crossed, grabbing the wrist, stepping under and through with the opposite foot, pivoting outside as the wrist is raised, and then brought down forcefully into the opponent's liver.
However, in the videos, there is usually little time to discern an attack is coming, and that means there may be less time to execute a viable defense. I agree with comments above that the victims seem not to be trained in knife defense. Also, that even if they were, there is little time to react, and your opponent only has to get in one good blow to the abdomen or under the ribs to do great damage or kill. As to one victim falling and not trying to fight back, I only know one person who was stabbed in the abdomen, unexpectedly, as his assailant ran past him from behind. Put him on his knees immediately due to pain, and he couldn't get up without help. He was a man in good shape, used to absorbing pain, but that got him.
I don't like the thought of knives coming at me. I would try almost anything to try and prevent someone from attacking me with a knife, but would certainly attempt to use a technique I have learned if that was all that was open.
One thing to consider is if the non-knife hand is presented to you, we would consider it fair game for being grappled and force applied in such a way that the knife bearing hand can't get to you. Stepping to the side is a good idea, but must be done quickly so the attacker cannon redirect the blow mid-strike. A block at the same time will help. A strike to the wrist or forearm is good if possible, but a strike to the side of the biceps with the non-blocking hand is probably better... or the neck or temple. A dragon's head punch is very effective in causing pain and/or cramps to muscle. Any time we grappled and were able to control the knife hand we would expect to disarm the opponent of his knife, then use it immediately on the opponent, as deep and long as possible (yes it will hurt him).
A defense of a straight or low upward thrust would be to block and trap with both hands open and thumbs crossed, grabbing the wrist, stepping under and through with the opposite foot, pivoting outside as the wrist is raised, and then brought down forcefully into the opponent's liver.
However, in the videos, there is usually little time to discern an attack is coming, and that means there may be less time to execute a viable defense. I agree with comments above that the victims seem not to be trained in knife defense. Also, that even if they were, there is little time to react, and your opponent only has to get in one good blow to the abdomen or under the ribs to do great damage or kill. As to one victim falling and not trying to fight back, I only know one person who was stabbed in the abdomen, unexpectedly, as his assailant ran past him from behind. Put him on his knees immediately due to pain, and he couldn't get up without help. He was a man in good shape, used to absorbing pain, but that got him.
I don't like the thought of knives coming at me. I would try almost anything to try and prevent someone from attacking me with a knife, but would certainly attempt to use a technique I have learned if that was all that was open.
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