TIG, testing and contributions to the art.

[Earl Weiss]

Looking at this much more closely, it is actually a very deep consideration. I'd like to take a look at this from strictly a 'third part' position for a moment. Looking at TF's example of topping out at 2nd Dan if you never teach (even within the school), this actually isn't a bad idea at all. If you're not teaching, why would you need to go any higher ...

It is often said that success is a jorney, not a destination. I have viewed BB Ransks as mileposts along the journey. While one could learn all the techniques by XYZ rank, the ITF syllabus contains new material thru 7th. One could argue that you could stay a white belt and learn all that material as well.

I would say that as I progressed, the number of physical motions to be learned decreased, but there were often new insighte to those already learned.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

It is often said that success is a jorney, not a destination. I have viewed BB Ransks as mileposts along the journey. While one could learn all the techniques by XYZ rank, the ITF syllabus contains new material thru 7th. One could argue that you could stay a white belt and learn all that material as well.

I would say that as I progressed, the number of physical motions to be learned decreased, but there were often new insighte to those already learned.

Absolutely, though continued learning and the journey of success are independent of the grading. Thus one could 'top out' with regards to rank but continue to deepen in knowledge and understanding of the art for the rest of their lives.

 

[puunui]

In our area the MA business is very saturated. Often their are retail schools every mile or so and then their are Park District and YMCA clubs as well as those at health clubs and after scholl programs. Not much fertile ground available and the prospect of having to travel loong distances to teach is a non starter.

where there is a will there is a way.

 

[Dirty Dog]

where there is a will there is a way.

Really? Then I'd like to see you ski through a revolving door...

 

[puunui]

Really? Then I'd like to see you ski through a revolving door...

that can be done.

 

[Twin Fist]

i for one would LOVE to see the belt material for 1st-7th dan in the ITF Earl.

It is often said that success is a jorney, not a destination. I have viewed BB Ransks as mileposts along the journey. While one could learn all the techniques by XYZ rank, the ITF syllabus contains new material thru 7th. One could argue that you could stay a white belt and learn all that material as well.

I would say that as I progressed, the number of physical motions to be learned decreased, but there were often new insighte to those already learned.

 

[Earl Weiss]

i for one would LOVE to see the belt material for 1st-7th dan in the ITF Earl.

Not be sure what various ITF's have (not been affiliated with them since 2010) so I cannot comply. But, If you PM me with an address I can send by snail mail The USTF requirement booklets.

I do not have them in PDF form.

 

[puunui]

Just to be clear, my comments about students competing with you was not meant to imply that you must restrict them from competing. Although I do know of some instructors who now have students sign non compete clauses, but that is a different s.topic. My point was more along the line of forcing them to compete.

Not forcing them to compete, forcing them to leave the nest. There is something to be said for the sibling that never gets married or has kids of their own and instead takes care of their parents at their parent's home and being the favorite uncle for their sibling's children. But it is not the same thing as going out and starting a family of your own.

 

[puunui]

The pie can only be cut into so many pieces.

I look at it as there is more than enough for everyone.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I look at it as there is more than enough for everyone.

Perhaps in a perfect world. I teach at one Park District location where you can literaly throw a stone and hit 2 storefront retail TKD schools. (One was further away and relocated closer when he split from his instructor, and the other opened later.) Within a mile from there is one more TKD school and 2 or three other schools.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

If the system has material past second dan that is arranged by dan grade, you'd have a reason to go higher. That is the case in Kukkiwon taekwondo.

Also, at least in the two schools where I have trained, in hapkido, weapons are introduced, starting with the dan bong (short stick; tanbo) and jang bong (bo). Ildan is also, at both schools, where knife defenses and defenses against multiple opponents were introduced.

So I guess it really depends upon how the curriculum is structured.

I'd like to look at this closer through TF's perspective. If a system indeed has additonal information added to the art at different Dan levels then I can fully see having the opportunity to reach those levels. You mentioned that this is the case with KKW TKD. What additional material is added beyond say the first Dan? I know that there is an added form for each level. But learning an additional form, using skills and knowledge prevously learned is not the same as learning a form that adds previously unknown content to your training. For example, these forms learned at the Dan levels in KKW TKD, do they use the same types of movements learned in previous forms such as high blocks, punches, kicks etc? Does a 4th Dan KKW TKD know something a 1st Dan doesn't? The reason I ask is that I have had many conversations with a friend of mine in NY that is a KKW 7th Dan. He stated that he trained under the same Korean GM for 30 years, but really learned nothing new after the 3 year mark i.e. 1st Dan. Yes, he learned additional forms, but it wasn't 'new' information that wasn't previously known. The same input from the other KKW masters that I know. Not a slam on KKW TKD, and shouldn't be taken as such.

I can see learning a new form for a new Dan level if it contains information that hasn't been done already i.e. okay you're now trainng for 2nd Dan, this new form is going to contain 3 new ground fighting principles, 1 new choke, 2 new throws, 1 new cavity pressing and 3 balance displacement principles.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I'd like to look at this closer through TF's perspective. If a system indeed has additonal information added to the art at different Dan levels then I can fully see having the opportunity to reach those levels. You mentioned that this is the case with KKW TKD. What additional material is added beyond say the first Dan? I know that there is an added form for each level. But learning an additional form, using skills and knowledge prevously learned is not the same as learning a form that adds previously unknown content to your training. For example, these forms learned at the Dan levels in KKW TKD, do they use the same types of movements learned in previous forms such as high blocks, punches, kicks etc? Does a 4th Dan KKW TKD know something a 1st Dan doesn't? The reason I ask is that I have had many conversations with a friend of mine in NY that is a KKW 7th Dan. He stated that he trained under the same Korean GM for 30 years, but really learned nothing new after the 3 year mark i.e. 1st Dan. Yes, he learned additional forms, but it wasn't 'new' information that wasn't previously known. The same input from the other KKW masters that I know. Not a slam on KKW TKD, and shouldn't be taken as such.

I can see learning a new form for a new Dan level if it contains information that hasn't been done already i.e. okay you're now trainng for 2nd Dan, this new form is going to contain 3 new ground fighting principles, 1 new choke, 2 new throws, 1 new cavity pressing and 3 balance displacement principles.

I have only learned Koryo and Keumgang, so I cannot speak first hand about the forms past that level, but those two forms do contain new techniques not taught in the previous forms. They also emphasize different ways of moving.

Some KKW schools do introduce a weapon curriculum after first dan. My opinion of doing so, in and of itself, is neutral; I am neither in favor of nor opposed to schools doing so. However, I do find that much of what I have seen in taekwondo schools that passes for weapon work is subpar and reflects either a lack of knowledge of the weapons themselves, or looks as though it were slapped together just to have something to keep students around and maybe add testing fees.

 

[Dirty Dog]

that can be done.

Show me the video....

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I have only learned Koryo and Keumgang, so I cannot speak first hand about the forms past that level, but those two forms do contain new techniques not taught in the previous forms. They also emphasize different ways of moving.

Some KKW schools do introduce a weapon curriculum after first dan. My opinion of doing so, in and of itself, is neutral; I am neither in favor of nor opposed to schools doing so. However, I do find that much of what I have seen in taekwondo schools that passes for weapon work is subpar and reflects either a lack of knowledge of the weapons themselves, or looks as though it were slapped together just to have something to keep students around and maybe add testing fees.

Thank you Daniel. Let me pick your brain further (or anyone), what new techniques are contained in Koryo and Keumgang that aren't known already? What different way of moving that adds to the knowledge base? Thank you.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Thank you Daniel. Let me pick your brain further (or anyone), what new techniques are contained in Koryo and Keumgang that aren't known already? What different way of moving that adds to the knowledge base? Thank you.

With each form, there is an associated meaning, and one should move and execute the techniques of the form with that form's meaning in mind. Keumgang, for example, is to convey the hardness of a diamond and a sense of ponderosity; too strong to be broken. Movement in Keumgang should, therefore, be different from how one moves in say, taegeuk yukjang, which represents the insessant flow and softness of water.

Koryo introduces 'tong mil gi' (forgive my spelling if I am incorrect) which is a 'log push' at the beginning of the form. The double side kick; knee/chest is introduced, as well as double outer arm torso blocking.

Keumgang introduces new blocks; the double mountain block, as well as (this is the best way that I can describe it) a crane stance mountain block.

There are probably more, but as to whether or not the specific technique has been taught prior to learning the form somewhat depends upon how the instructor has put together the geub level curriculum.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Koryo introduces 'tong mil gi' (forgive my spelling if I am incorrect) which is a 'log push' at the beginning of the form. The double side kick; knee/chest is introduced, as well as double outer arm torso blocking.

Agwison Khaljaebi (arc hand strike), and Mureupkukki (knee break) are also new in Koryo.

Keumgang introduces new blocks; the double mountain block, as well as (this is the best way that I can describe it) a crane stance mountain block.

The block done in the crane stance (Hakdari Seogi) is actually a diamond low block (Keumgang Area Makki). The mountain block (santeulmakki) is done with the fists aligned with the temples, upper arms parallel to the floor and elbows bent 90 degrees. Keumgang Area Makki is a high block/low block done at the same time. In Palgwe Sa Jang, the related diamond middle block (Keumgang Momtong Makki) is taught. Keumgang also introduces the large hinge block (Kheun Dolzteogi), if you didn't learn it in Palgwe Pal Jang. The palm heel jaw strike (batangson Teokchigi) could also be considered a new strike, although I see it as more a variant, since the swallow form chin strike (Jebi Poom Teok Chigi) is taught in Palgwe Yook Jang.

 

[puunui]

Show me the video....

In this link,

a comment is made: "Just so you know, the path from the bottom of the stairs runs along the top of a forty foot cliff... I haven't laughed so hard since my buddy skied through a revolving door... "

So it can, and apparently has, been done.

 

[Dirty Dog]

In this link,

Nice try, but fail.

A calypso song and a guy sledding on stairs. Neither pertains to the request.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgHDbe4kV7ca comment is made: "Just so you know, the path from the bottom of the stairs runs along the top of a forty foot cliff... I haven't laughed so hard since my buddy skied through a revolving door... "

So it can, and apparently has, been done.

I'm suprised I'd have to point this out to a lawyer, but figures of speach really cannot be considered proof of anything. After all, people refer to being pregannt as having a bun in the oven. That does not make the fetus a variety of croissant.

 

[mastercole]

I have only learned Koryo and Keumgang, so I cannot speak first hand about the forms past that level, but those two forms do contain new techniques not taught in the previous forms. They also emphasize different ways of moving.

Some KKW schools do introduce a weapon curriculum after first dan. My opinion of doing so, in and of itself, is neutral; I am neither in favor of nor opposed to schools doing so. However, I do find that much of what I have seen in taekwondo schools that passes for weapon work is subpar and reflects either a lack of knowledge of the weapons themselves, or looks as though it were slapped together just to have something to keep students around and maybe add testing fees.

I like that observation about weapons. I know of a guy from NY that has trained under the same Korean master for 30 years, and from what he writes, you can tell that what he does that passes for Taekwondo is subpar and reflects either a lack of knowledge of the Poomsae (and Taekwondo as a whole) itself, or is just slapped together just to have some thing to keep student around, of excited about going on the next trip to Korea, another money maker

Some practitioners never learn the material deeply. Each technique, each Poomsae, each concept is a gate inviting the practitioner to grind fine and learn deeply about the subject at hand (behind that particular gate). However, they think they need to be discovering new gates all the time (new Poomsae, technique, concepts, etc). Discovering gates is not learning, opening the gate and taking the time and making the great effort (study combined with hard work) to explore what is behind that gate is true learning.

But actually exploring behind the gate is for the very few. The majority of those who like to write books (not all), take great pride in publishing the fact they may have discovered another gate, but they rarely write anything of substance, unless you consider some of their ignorant remarks as substantial That is why we have so many badly rehashed kata/poomsae books in the world and that is why these types will continue to look for new ways to publish and sell even more badly rehashed kata/Poomsae books and so-called explanations.

 

[puunui]

I'm suprised I'd have to point this out to a lawyer, but figures of speach really cannot be considered proof of anything. After all, people refer to being pregannt as having a bun in the oven. That does not make the fetus a variety of croissant.

And if you were a lawyer then you would know that you need rebuttal evidence to rebut a statement, not just pure argument. But more to the point, if you don't believe in the concept of "where there is a will there is a way", then frankly, that is your issue, not mine. Coming from someone who claims to practice the martial arts, I find that sort of attitude disappointing. Martial arts instructors should aspire to inspire, not be a wet blanket, to use a figure of speech.