throwing and joint locking in Kenpo

[jujutsu_indonesia]

Hello! I am Denny Hardika from Indonesia. I did Goju-Kai Karate when I was in high school, and now I am doing Okinawan Goju, Jujutsu and Wado-ryu. I am very interested in the styles of Kenpo in America, because I once watch a video by Mr. Bruce Juchnik and he shows many many throwing techniques. Some looks like the ones I learned in Jujutsu and Wado-ryu.

I just want to know, is all styles of American Kenpo has many throwing and joint locking, or maybe this is just the norm in Mr. Juchnik's style? Also, is there any influences of Judo and Danzan-ryu Jujutsu in the Kenpo styles that came from Hawaii, knowing that Danzan-ryu was also born in Hawaii?

Thank you!

Denny

 

[John Bishop]

Hello! I am Denny Hardika from Indonesia. I did Goju-Kai Karate when I was in high school, and now I am doing Okinawan Goju, Jujutsu and Wado-ryu. I am very interested in the styles of Kenpo in America, because I once watch a video by Mr. Bruce Juchnik and he shows many many throwing techniques. Some looks like the ones I learned in Jujutsu and Wado-ryu.

I just want to know, is all styles of American Kenpo has many throwing and joint locking, or maybe this is just the norm in Mr. Juchnik's style? Also, is there any influences of Judo and Danzan-ryu Jujutsu in the Kenpo styles that came from Hawaii, knowing that Danzan-ryu was also born in Hawaii?

Thank you!

Denny

The original kenpo taught in Hawaii had a lot of jujitsu techniques in it. In fact it was called "Kenpo Jiu Jutsu". Then that system was re-invented as "Kosho Shorei Ryu Kenpo". The origin of the jujitsu in this system is not known, and may never be known.
Judo and jujitsu techniques are used in about 50% of the self defense combinations in the Hawaiian martial art, "Kajukenbo". These techniques come from Kodokan judo, and Danzan Ryu Jujitsu.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

the throwing and joint locking in kosho are thought of no differently than the the striking arts. its the same movement, its all in the ability to transition from one to the next seemlessly. the throwing in kosho can be very aiki like.

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

The original kenpo taught in Hawaii had a lot of jujitsu techniques in it. In fact it was called "Kenpo Jiu Jutsu". Then that system was re-invented as "Kosho Shorei Ryu Kenpo". The origin of the jujitsu in this system is not known, and may never be known.
Judo and jujitsu techniques are used in about 50% of the self defense combinations in the Hawaiian martial art, "Kajukenbo". These techniques come from Kodokan judo, and Danzan Ryu Jujitsu.

Thank you for the information, Bishop sensei. When you say "Original Kenpo as taught in Hawaii", do you refer to the martial art taught by Mr. Mitose?

And about the "50% of combinations uses Judo and Jujutsu", does it means that most of the self-defense tricks utilizes Judo throws/Jujutsu joint locks combinations?

Is there any pictorial examples online that I can have a look at?

Again, thank you!

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

the throwing and joint locking in kosho are thought of no differently than the the striking arts. its the same movement, its all in the ability to transition from one to the next seemlessly. the throwing in kosho can be very aiki like.

Yes, this is also what Mr. Juchnik said in his video

 

[BlackCatBonz]

al tracy cut up a copy of what is self defense and put it online
check this link out.
http://www.tracyskarate.com/History/Mitosebook/masterpage.htm#Pages

take everything you read on the web with a grain of salt

 

[shaolinDave]

The Tracy Kenpo site has a link to Mitose's "What is Self Defense(Kenpo Jui Jitsu)" There are alot of grab defenses and throws in there. I guess this would be a good view into what kinds of things James Mitose was teaching back then.

The Link: http://www.tracyskarate.com/History/Mitosebook/masterpage.htm

 

[shaolinDave]

BlackCat , You must posted as I was writing my reply. You beat me to the punch. Oh well, I guess you got it twice now.

 

[John Bishop]

Thank you for the information, Bishop sensei. When you say "Original Kenpo as taught in Hawaii", do you refer to the martial art taught by Mr. Mitose?

And about the "50% of combinations uses Judo and Jujutsu", does it means that most of the self-defense tricks utilizes Judo throws/Jujutsu joint locks combinations?

Is there any pictorial examples online that I can have a look at?

Again, thank you!

Yes, I was referring to Mitose's school.

And yes, the Kajukenbo combinations include throws, joint locks and dislocations, arm bars, and foot sweeps.

There are several Kajukenbo websites with mpegs on them. This one has quite a few: http://www.kajukenbo.info/kajukenbo/index-eng.html

 

[BlackCatBonz]

Yes, I was referring to Mitose's school.

And yes, the Kajukenbo combinations include throws, joint locks and dislocations, arm bars, and foot sweeps.

There are several Kajukenbo websites with mpegs on them. This one has quite a few: http://www.kajukenbo.info/kajukenbo/index-eng.html

john, is kajukenbo a pretty even blend of striking locking and throwing or is there one thing usually focused on more than another?
is there a technique catalogue of sorts?

thanks

 

[John Bishop]

Generally, there's a pretty even blend of locks, throws, kicking, and striking in the "punch counters" and "grab arts".
In the "knife counters" and "club counters", the judo and jujitsu techniques are pretty dominate, with strikes and kicks being secondary.
In the "2 and 3 man defenses", strikes and kicks dominate.
In Kajukenbo, we really don't have any single technique defense movements. All the defense techniques are done with a combination of techniques.
I don't really understand what you mean by the term "technique catalog". But the "Original Method" has 14 katas, 21 punch counters, 15 knife defenses, 13 club defenses, 15 grab arts, 8 two-man defenses, six 3-man defenses, one 4-man defense, and 26 Alphabet techniques. These are broken down into groupings of requirements for each belt ranking.
Example: the first traditional adult belt is "white/purple". The belt requirements would be 4 katas, 7 grab arts, 5 punch counters, 2 club defenses, and 2 knife defenses.

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

Yes, I was referring to Mitose's school.

And yes, the Kajukenbo combinations include throws, joint locks and dislocations, arm bars, and foot sweeps.

There are several Kajukenbo websites with mpegs on them. This one has quite a few: http://www.kajukenbo.info/kajukenbo/index-eng.html

Hello Mr. Bishop, thank you for the link! The MPEGs are very good, some of the techniques looks like Jujutsu, and very effective!

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

The Tracy Kenpo site has a link to Mitose's "What is Self Defense(Kenpo Jui Jitsu)" There are alot of grab defenses and throws in there. I guess this would be a good view into what kinds of things James Mitose was teaching back then.

The Link: http://www.tracyskarate.com/History/Mitosebook/masterpage.htm

Thank you for the link, Shaolindave. Very interesting book. I notice that the Kenpo salute is very much similar to the ones used in traditional Southeast Asia martial arts.

BTW, some of the techniques looks like Ninpo, I see some Uragyaku and Omotegyaku.. but maybe that's because there are only so much way to bend a joint

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

al tracy cut up a copy of what is self defense and put it online
check this link out.
http://www.tracyskarate.com/History/Mitosebook/masterpage.htm#Pages

take everything you read on the web with a grain of salt

Thank you Black Cat

 

[Doc]

Even if you look at Ed Parker's Motion based Kenpo, and observe the techniques, the conculsion is obvious. A good three-quarters of the techniques SHOULD involve some type of manipulations. Higher if you move to more extensive interpretations of the Ed Parker Works. Unfortunately this material is unexplored because teachers without the knowledge teach their students to "move first." Actually a commendable alternative that recognizes the lack of information, but doesn't prepare students for when they are seized, BEFORE they can move first.

When Parker first came to the mainland, the DanZan/Kajukenbo influences were obviously there. Almost every technique ended in a takedown and or lock. Breakfalls were a part of the training, and most techniques, as today began with some type of seize, push, pull, hold, hug, or lock. Punch type attacks were, and are are still a minority.

This information was gleened from the "system" because it requires significantly skilled instructors, and is labor intensive to teach properly and did not fit the business model needed to be successful, borrowed from the Arthur Murray Dance Studios. Yes, that's where the term "studio" originated in Kenpo, along with the 5 private lessons for a set fee, the turning of paying students into assistant teachers, and the informal franchise agreements, etc.

Yes, its there but only a minority of instructors explore it on a very small scale.

 

[KENPOJOE]

Hi Folks!
In regards to the "contact manipulation" used in EPAK, there are many locks,holds,etc in the "attacks" that students are supposed to learn. But, as eluded to by others on this thread, many instructors simply have not explored it sufficently to garner all the required knowledge out of said attacks and/or defenses in the system. Certain instructors have explored the danzan ryu connection [such as Steve Labounty] and have found valuble information that enhances and compliments their kenpo and provides valuble information in regards to the kenpo-jujutsu relationship. David German, thorugh his study of Al Thomas' Budojujutsu and EPAK, has detailed out the transitional points of motion through his system of T.A.I.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

Since Kenpo has influences from Danzan-ryu Jujutsu, and Danzan-ryu Jujutsu has Newaza, does Kenpo (all Kenpo incl Kosho-ryu and Kajukenbo) has Newaza techniques, or at least escape techniques from Osaekomi? Or does the modern Kenpo practitioners (post-1990s) took their Newaza techniques from Shootfighting and BJJ?

 

[Doc]

Since Kenpo has influences from Danzan-ryu Jujutsu, and Danzan-ryu Jujutsu has Newaza, does Kenpo (all Kenpo incl Kosho-ryu and Kajukenbo) has Newaza techniques, or at least escape techniques from Osaekomi? Or does the modern Kenpo practitioners (post-1990s) took their Newaza techniques from Shootfighting and BJJ?

Newaza techniques are definitely present in the interpretation I lead. However, they are put in proper perspective relative to the overall philosophy of the interpretation. Mr. Parker felt that newaza techniques, (that he was quite good at by the way) had been explored for centuries ad nauseum, so there was really no "new" information there. He felt the area he wanted to explore was associated with strengthening the fighters ability to not be taken down, even by experienced grapplers. To that end, we spent a great deal of time examining, and exploring the Chinese methodologies of creating actual and functional structural integrity beyond the typical "lip service" spoken by most. For some "structural integrity" is taken for granted as just "being there." Mr. Parker said, "Just because you talk about it, and give it a name doesn't make it happen." He made it happen vertically and horizontally, and we didn't have to go to BJJ or shootsporting to get it. With friends like Wally Jay and Gene LeBell given the nod, Parker knew he was on the right track.

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

He made it happen vertically and horizontally, and we didn't have to go to BJJ or shootsporting to get it. With friends like Wally Jay and Gene LeBell given the nod, Parker knew he was on the right track.

Hehehe, I like that term "Shootsporting"

If we get paid for fighting under certain rules then it becomes sports, eh? I agree with that

Thank you for the information!