Things that make you go Hmmm

[Xue Sheng]

I read and article in the February 2008 issue of Psychology titled “10 ways we get the odds wrong” by Maia Szalavitz and it made me think.

VIII. We worry about teen marijuana use, but not about teen sports
Risk arguments cannot be divorced from values

If the risks of smoking marijuana are coldly compared to those of playing high-school football, parents should be less concerned about pot smoking. Death by marijuana overdose has never been reported, while 13 teen players died of football related injuries in 2006 alone

Now I have never been an advocate in the legalization of marijuana and this article does not make me change my mind but I have to admit it is something to think we need to re-evaluate High-school sport for safety reasons

 

[CoryKS]

I read and article in the February 2008 issue of Psychology titled “10 ways we get the odds wrong” by Maia Szalavitz and it made me think.



Now I have never been an advocate in the legalization of marijuana and this article does not make me change my mind but I have to admit it is something to think we need to re-evaluate High-school sport for safety reasons

Is she discussing the ways she gets the odds wrong? Because it sounds like she's saying that equal numbers of kids play sports as smoke marijuana. Also, is she comparing it to the number of kids who died directly from marijuana or is she considering auto accidents, falls, etc. in which the victim was under the influence? Hard to tell from what was provided.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Is she discussing the ways she gets the odds wrong? Because it sounds like she's saying that equal numbers of kids play sports as smoke marijuana. Also, is she comparing it to the number of kids who died directly from marijuana or is she considering auto accidents, falls, etc. in which the victim was under the influence? Hard to tell from what was provided.

As it stated "marijuana over dose" not marijuana related deaths. This is part of why I am still not convinced legalization is the way to go.

Basically the article is not so much about marijuana usage just how people in general worry about the wrong stuff.

More worry about cancer than heart disease. We fear snakes but not cars, we fear chemicals sprayed on our neighbors lawn but it is ok on ours, and people have a tendency to drive faster wearing safety belts on average. Basically just talking about what the titles of the article says” Ways we get the odds wrong"

And to be honest I took the "Death by marijuana overdose has never been reported" part fairly lightly, especially without the data and the ways the data was collected to back it up. I was shocked at the "13 teen players died of football related injuries in 2006 alone" part. That is likely easily verifiable and it says to me that something needs to be looked at here.

 

[MA-Caver]

While true, nobody has ever dropped dead by lighting up a joint or a pipe and taking a toke, obviously they haven't taken into account of teen deaths related to automobile accidents resultant of marijuana use. But then it didn't occur while in school thus it doesn't count.
But they (legalization advocates) are not (or don't want to be) looking into the effects of long term usage and long term effects of the psychotropic drug, which is probably more harmful than the average football games played on a high-school gridiron.

 

[Xue Sheng]

While true, nobody has ever dropped dead by lighting up a joint or a pipe and taking a toke, obviously they haven't taken into account of teen deaths related to automobile accidents resultant of marijuana use. But then it didn't occur while in school thus it doesn't count.
But they (legalization advocates) are not (or don't want to be) looking into the effects of long term usage and long term effects of the psychotropic drug, which is probably more harmful than the average football games played on a high-school gridiron.

True

But still 13 teen players died of football related injuries in 2006 alone and that does not include any year prior or 2007 and if there were deaths in those years as well how does that compare to the players that died in football related injuries in college and in the pros. If it is the same or more than it is simply a dangerous game but if it is considerably less then you need to look at high-school football and see just what the heck is going on.

 

[tellner]

We've had forty years in which it the US government funded research to demonstrate that hemp is harmful but would not permit research to investigate any positive effects. Even given that bias there isn't any evidence that it is anywhere near as harmful as tobacco or alcohol. It's not physically addictive. It doesn't cause and seems to actually inhibit malignancies. There have been plenty of deaths directly from alcohol poisoning and overdose. There have been millions of deaths directly and unequivocally attributable to tobacco use. From hemp? Zero.

By any fair standard there is much less reason to ban hemp than the other two drugs mentioned.

 

[MA-Caver]

We've had forty years in which it the US government funded research to demonstrate that hemp is harmful but would not permit research to investigate any positive effects. Even given that bias there isn't any evidence that it is anywhere near as harmful as tobacco or alcohol. It's not physically addictive. It doesn't cause and seems to actually inhibit malignancies. There have been plenty of deaths directly from alcohol poisoning and overdose. There have been millions of deaths directly and unequivocally attributable to tobacco use. From hemp? Zero.

By any fair standard there is much less reason to ban hemp than the other two drugs mentioned.

Mainly because for the same reason prohibition failed in the 30's... a majority of the Congress and Senate realized that they were just as addicted to alcohol as everyone else (ok not addicted but didn't want to go without a drink every now and again) and thus didn't want to be breaking their own laws so repealed the act... but they're not going to say that.

Imagine if the FBI were allowed to continue fighting the good fight against those breaking the prohibition law to this day... would we have less alcoholism or more?

 

[Touch Of Death]

Not to choose sides in this debate, but, we musn't forget the gateway effect of marijuana. Once a kid is comfortable with smoking from a pipe, its nothing for a kid, considering the qustionable friends they now have, to smoke another drug offered. So, our concerns about marijuana are not displaced. The culture of sports may be equaly as dangerous to our best and brightest, but the direction it takes us is not as frightening.
Sean

 

[Andrew Green]

Now I have never been an advocate in the legalization of marijuana and this article does not make me change my mind but I have to admit it is something to think we need to re-evaluate High-school sport for safety reasons

People die.

That's really all their is too it. We cannot get rid of every activity that involves risk, nor do I think we should even if we could. Taking risks is part of life, and a generation of kids that did nothing but "safe" activities is a scary thought.

13 deaths from football in a year is really not that many considering how many people play football. I imagine far more people in that age group died of car crashes, homicides, drowning, cancer and countless other things.

Plus how many of those kids are healthier because they play sports and are in good shape because of it, rather then playing xbox or watching American Idol? How many might have gotten killed by other accidents or diseases had they not been in good physical condition due to playing contact sports?

As for Marijuana, it has been proven that it is impossible to overdoss on it. Maybe people get killed doing other things while under the influence of it, but the same could be said about alcohol, cough medicine, pain killers and sleep deprivation.

Pretty much every study I have seen say it is far less dangerous then alcohol, which is legal. All that banning it seems to do is make more people into criminals. Which costs a lot of money to enforce and to support people in jail. Legalize it and tax it, use the savings and extra income to cut income tax and we'll all be happier

 

[Xue Sheng]

People die

True, but if 13 teenagers die playing football that is a whole lot different than a person in their 90s dieing in a hospital or 13 kids dying street racing in NYC.

3 young people jumped into the geyser pools at Yellowstone and died to but I do not think you need a study or to close the geyser pools.

13 deaths from football in a year is really not that many considering how many people play football. I

Maybe, but how many by comparison died in pro football or college football in 2006?

And I am not saying put a stop to it I’m saying if the deaths are higher than pro or college maybe we need to look into it.

As to taking risks, believe me I have taken more than my share, occasionally I found myself 15 or more feet off the ground on a dirt bike wondering what the hell did I just do, but I took them just the same
.

 

[Andrew Green]

Maybe, but how many by comparison died in pro football or college football in 2006?

I think you'd have to look at deaths per 100000 or something to get a meaningful comparison, there are a lot more high school players then college and pro combined. It makes sens that the total number of deaths would be higher.

 

[Nomad]

Not to choose sides in this debate, but, we musn't forget the gateway effect of marijuana. Once a kid is comfortable with smoking from a pipe, its nothing for a kid, considering the qustionable friends they now have, to smoke another drug offered. So, our concerns about marijuana are not displaced. The culture of sports may be equaly as dangerous to our best and brightest, but the direction it takes us is not as frightening.
Sean

Hmmmmm... if that's the case, why hasn't tobacco smoking been banned many years ago as it could equally be considered a "gateway drug" to marijuana and other crack.

Follow the money. US companies make way too much money from tobacco and alcohol and have far too much influence on the government for such bans to take place. Even with all the evidence against tobacco and the incredible burden tobacco-related disease (emphysima, cancer, etc.) has put on the health care system, the tobacco companies are still lobbying and have attempted to change their image in recent years through all the "if you want to stop smoking, Phillip Morris wants to help" -type ads on the airways recently. Uh huh... and I normally ask my cat to guard the cream too...

 

[Xue Sheng]

I think you'd have to look at deaths per 100000 or something to get a meaningful comparison, there are a lot more high school players then college and pro combined. It makes sens that the total number of deaths would be higher.

Although I agree there are many more high school players than pro, not so sure about pro and college combined but regardless, if one pro player dies there is a massive news circus and investigation in why. 13 teenagers die playing football and no one seems to care.

Something is wrong there.

If 13 died smoking marijuana you would hear about it though

 

[newGuy12]

Not to choose sides in this debate, but, we musn't forget the gateway effect of marijuana. Once a kid is comfortable with smoking from a pipe, its nothing for a kid, considering the qustionable friends they now have, to smoke another drug offered. So, our concerns about marijuana are not displaced. The culture of sports may be equaly as dangerous to our best and brightest, but the direction it takes us is not as frightening.
Sean

Right.

 

[Andrew Green]

if one pro player dies there is a massive news circus and investigation in why. 13 teenagers die playing football and no one seems to care.

Something is wrong there.

If 13 died smoking marijuana you would hear about it though

Media goes after news that is unusual, and that people might care about. A pro player dieing is news, they are a public figure. But even then I think how big of a name that player has would make a difference in the outcry from it.

If a quarterback for a top tier team dies due to complications from a game injury, it will be everywhere. If a guy that spends most of the season on the bench does, it will be much less of a ordeal.

Same as how when Paris Hilton gets a DUI it's big news, if you or I did, no one would care.

13 deaths due to Marijuana might make news, because its unusual, and lets be honest, a good number of media organizations have agendas they like too push to keep there sponsors happy. And there are a lot of big money corporations that would like to keep marijuana illegal. But if 13 a year was normal, I don't think we'd hear anything about it. I'm sure someone has died of a drug overdose in the past few weeks that wasn't a celebrity, but I certainly haven't heard about it, and apart from possibly some local news I imagine no one cared to mention it.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Media goes after news that is unusual, and that people might care about. A pro player dieing is news, they are a public figure. But even then I think how big of a name that player has would make a difference in the outcry from it.

If a quarterback for a top tier team dies due to complications from a game injury, it will be everywhere. If a guy that spends most of the season on the bench does, it will be much less of a ordeal.

Same as how when Paris Hilton gets a DUI it's big news, if you or I did, no one would care.

13 deaths due to Marijuana might make news, because its unusual, and lets be honest, a good number of media organizations have agendas they like too push to keep there sponsors happy. And there are a lot of big money corporations that would like to keep marijuana illegal. But if 13 a year was normal, I don't think we'd hear anything about it. I'm sure someone has died of a drug overdose in the past few weeks that wasn't a celebrity, but I certainly haven't heard about it, and apart from possibly some local news I imagine no one cared to mention it.

OK then your saying, if I get this correctly, that 13 kids dying playing football in 2006 are not really all that important so forget it that is just normal. Frankly I don't know if that is normal or not and frankly I am leaning towards not. But regardless I still feel that if by comparison it is high when compared to College and Pro something needs to be looked at. But if it is average... well something still needs to be looked at.

The justification of "people die" just isn't working for me here.

 

[Andrew Green]

I imagine that yes, 13 people dieing in high school football per year is pretty normal. I imagine they did make local news in there home towns, but on a national level, no, not newsworthy.

Anyways, found some numbers:

From 1931 to 2006, the National Center for Catastrophic Sport Injury Research has reported 1,002 direct and 674 indirect fatalities resulting from participation in all organized football (professional, college, highschool, and sandlot) in the US [2]. While the yearly number of indirect fatalities has remained near 9 per year, the yearly number of direct fatalities has declined from an average of 18.6 per year between 1931-1970, 9.5 per year from 1971-1990, to 4.3 per year from 1991-2006. In 2006, with an estimated 1.8 million participants in organized football, the survey reported a relatively high 16 indirect deaths but only one fatality directly attributable to football play (a highschool running back who suffered a fatal spinal injury when tackled)

- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_issues_in_American_football


16 total out of 1.8 million, that's some pretty low odds, and only one that was direct. SO I'd really not consider football a high risk activity in terms of fatalities.

Edit - I think that also says something about the use of stats in the original article, comparing direct and indirect deaths from playing football to only direct deaths of Marijuana...

 

[Xue Sheng]

I imagine that yes, 13 people dieing in high school football per year is pretty normal. I imagine they did make local news in there home towns, but on a national level, no, not newsworthy.

Anyways, found some numbers:




- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_issues_in_American_football


16 total out of 1.8 million, that's some pretty low odds, and only one that was direct. SO I'd really not consider football a high risk activity in terms of fatalities.

Edit - I think that also says something about the use of stats in the original article, comparing direct and indirect deaths from playing football to only direct deaths of Marijuana...

Why is it whenever I have used wikipedia as proof of anything I have been told wikipedia is not a good source? Not making comment on your use of it, just wondering why.

I never called it high risk, I said there were 13 deaths in 2006 and I was wondering how that compared to college and pro. If it was greater then why if it was the same, well I still would like to know why there were any but I have been around long enough to know no one will care so why bother pushing for an answer. If it was less then I still think it is too much but as much as I really do think the planet would be a great place if it were not for all the people I think 13 deaths of teenagers playing a game in high-school is a bit much but then maybe it is just me.

Thanks for the link, I will check it out the numbers.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Found these

http://www.ma.iup.edu/~tshort/handouts/football_deaths.html

http://www.childrenshospital.org/az/Site1112/mainpageS1112P0.html

Football - In 1998, more than 159,000 children and adolescents ages 5 to 14 were treated in hospital emergency rooms for football-related injuries.

The year they are talking about is 2006

Last year, heat-related deaths among middle school, high school and college football players were at their highest level since 1936, according to new statistics.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,291992,00.html

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-79395991.html

http://www.columbiamissourian.com/stories/2005/07/17/researchers-investigate-athlete-deaths/

 

[TheOriginalName]

I think the original post shows one thing and one thing only - Statistics can be produced to support any point you want.

You need to remember that yes 13 people died playing high school football. However, what portion of these were attributed to poor and\or incorrect use of safety equipment and pre-existing medical conditions?
How many of these deaths were actually due to the fact that they were playing football and how many were due to other factors??

There is one thing that is true. Sport is good for you. Perhaps there are things that could make sport, and in this case High School Footbaly, safer but no one can argue that children that participate in sport are not healthier than those who don't.

The pot comments i believe are also incorrect. It does not take into account the number of people who have died from lung cancer caused by smoking (in this case pot). It does not take into account the number of people who develop schizophrenia as a result of pot use and either end up in a mental hospital for the rest of their lives or end up commiting suicide.

All drugs have side effect - even the pain killers we commonly use. The difference between controlled drugs (that you get at a chemist etc) and those that are currently illegal (pot, coke, ice etc) is that the side effects of the illegal ones are extremely harmful to the human body and also cause behaviour that is harmful to others or to the user.

At the end of the day the original post is just a use of statistics to prove a point. Any high school student would be able to do such manipulation. Plus 70% of statistics are made up anyway - 45% of people know that!!