Theory: video training works better for striking than for grappling

[skribs]

Note: This is not to say that you can learn effective striking from a video. Merely to say that the difference in training striking from a video is less than that of training grappling.

There is a video I've posted before on here, and a bunch on other sites. In this video, he claims that he and a friend (both with lots of experience in wrestling) spent a year trying to learn BJJ from videos, and when he finally went to class he felt the entire year was pretty much wasted. This video has been my go-to response whenever anyone asks about training at home instead of training in a martial arts school.

However, quarantines hit, and my school has been forced to close to students. As I've mentioned in other threads, we've been doing online classes via Zoom. It's been a struggle to teach over Zoom. Some of the younger kids tend to wander off, and a few others spend too much time right next to the screen instead of training. There are parts of the forms where it's hard to see what we're doing when we lead, and simply the extra challenge of using different footwork to remain on camera. Beginners sometimes benefit from a literal hands-on approach to teaching, where you help them manipulate their leg or arm so they can see exactly how they're supposed to move.

However, we have been able to teach the kicks, punches, and forms pretty well. Our grappling teaching? Completely failed. We did a test online, and students were able to display proper forms and striking techniques, but they were completely lost in the hand grab portion of the test.

This got me thinking about the video I linked above. This also got me started thinking about videos I've watched and how I've improved from them:

1. When I first started TKD, I watched Ginger Ninja Trickster's videos on Youtube to help improve my kicks. I credit him with my learning the 540 hook kick, something not taught at our school.
2. Someone showed me the channel Fran Sands. I've been watching his videos and have a better understanding of different punching techniques. I've been watching his tutorials on footwork and punching, and adapting what he teaches in them to the context of Taekwondo.
3. I've watched a few Muay Thai videos about the clinch, and one of them really helped me improve my knee strikes.

You'll probably notice that all of the benefits I've gained were striking. Even when I was watching videos specifically about the clinch, my biggest takeaway was improvements in striking. I did learn a few things about the clinch, but since I haven't had the opportunity to drill against another person, I'm not too confident in my ability to apply that understanding.

Now, in defense of grappling, the guy who tried to learn BJJ in his basement wasn't learning from training videos. He and his friends were trying to dissect what happens in fights and figure out what's going on, but with no real understanding of how it all worked. So it might be a bit better.

And in offense against striking, there are definitely some things you won't get by training on a video - and are even hard to get training online like in our Zoom class. Sparring experience, pad drills, sparring drills, and expert advice are all absent in home training. Even if you have a training partner, you're missing that expert advice. Even on Zoom, we can't hold pads for our students or spar with them.

However, the strike only connects with the opponent at the moment of impact. It's a lot easier to shadow box than it is to shadow roll. It's a lot easier to work on your punches and kicks on a heavy bag, than it is to work on your ground game against a dummy. Effective grappling requires you to read your opponent's energy, so you know where the path of least resistance is. That's something you can only learn against the opponent.

You can still get 50% of the striking practice in, but you'll probably only get 20% of effective grappling training.

That's my opinion, anyway. I think if you have to train from home, striking is much easier than grappling. I think if you can train in a gym, it's going to be much better for both.

 

[Headhunter]

What makes me laugh is how for years bjj guys have been trash talking saying "oh we do 100% of our stuff on people. We don't do things in the air or use bags it's all on someone " and acting superior for it but now with everything suddenly they're selling solo training and oh hey go grapple with a pillow

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You can still get 50% of the striking practice in, but you'll probably only get 20% of effective grappling training.

Solo training = partner training without partner.

 

[skribs]

@Kung Fu Wang my experience is those solo training drills don't work nearly as well if you didn't learn the partner drill first.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

@Kung Fu Wang my experience is those solo training drills don't work nearly as well if you didn't learn the partner drill first.

Of course you have to learn the partner drill first. I can see your concern. You try to teach new students wrestling skill before they have learned partner drills. That can be difficult IMO.

To convert from partner drill into solo drill is possible. To do the other way around can be difficult.

 

[skribs]

Of course you have to learn the partner drill first. I can see your concern. You try to teach new students wrestling skill before they have learned partner drills. That can be difficult IMO.

To convert from partner drill into solo drill is possible. To do the other way around can be difficult.

That's my point. Since we're talking about learning from home via video, instead of going to the gym, there is no partner drill. Thus, most students will only get maybe 10-20% of what you teach.

 

[jobo]

That's my point. Since we're talking about learning from home via video, instead of going to the gym, there is no partner drill. Thus, most students will only get maybe 10-20% of what you teach.

its probably 0 to 10% ???

which means your wasting their time and yours,

teach them something that can be achieved on their own, like physical conditioning, co ordination, balance etc

do a wax on, wax off thing and have them paper the ceiling whist stood on one leg, at least they end up with something tangible

 

[Tony Dismukes]

However, the strike only connects with the opponent at the moment of impact. It's a lot easier to shadow box than it is to shadow roll. It's a lot easier to work on your punches and kicks on a heavy bag, than it is to work on your ground game against a dummy. Effective grappling requires you to read your opponent's energy, so you know where the path of least resistance is. That's something you can only learn against the opponent.

You can still get 50% of the striking practice in, but you'll probably only get 20% of effective grappling training.

This is correct.

Conceptually, you can divide the skills of an art into:

• control of your own body (with regard to body dynamics and proper form)
• control of your opponent/your own body in relation to your opponent

In striking, it is fairly easy to separate the two. You can't learn timing, distancing, reading an opponent, etc. training solo/from video, but you can learn how to throw a punch or kick in the air or against a bag that way. As you said, 50% is about right.

In grappling, the two are inextricably linked. Not only is there the matter of reading the opponent's energy, but even if you "shadow-box" grappling movements (as KFW illustrates in his videos) you have to adjust your balance and application of force because you don't have the resistance of your partner's body. I'd say that if you already really understand the movements (from training with partners), then you can probably get 10-20% benefit from solo training. If you don't already have that experience, then learning from video without a training partner is mostly a lost cause. (Learning from video with a training partner is certainly doable, although the more experience you and your partner have, the more you will get out of it.)

 

[skribs]

Conceptually, you can divide the skills of an art into:

• control of your own body (with regard to body dynamics and proper form)
• control of your opponent/your own body in relation to your opponent

I really like the way you put this.

In grappling, the two are inextricably linked. Not only is there the matter of reading the opponent's energy, but even if you "shadow-box" grappling movements (as KFW illustrates in his videos) you have to adjust your balance and application of force because you don't have the resistance of your partner's body. I'd say that if you already really understand the movements (from training with partners), then you can probably get 10-20% benefit from solo training. If you don't already have that experience, then learning from video without a training partner is mostly a lost cause. (Learning from video with a training partner is certainly doable, although the more experience you and your partner have, the more you will get out of it.)

The one thing I can see is that solo training can help you remember which is which for a test. Although maybe my Master is a bit strange in that every technique must be remembered by number. Going through the techniques solo helps me remember which is #1, which is #2, etc., so that when I go to class I can focus on improving the technique instead of remembering which is which.

I also think some techniques will be different than others. For example, on a hip throw, you can get a lot of the technique by watching a video. But it will be hard to learn things like the proper footwork (since most people just ignore footwork, even when it's hammered into them in class), or how to twist and pin the arm to pull your opponent off balance and give you the leverage to make the take-down. Without being able to feel a competent fighter perform the move on you, it can be hard to tell what it's supposed to feel like when done correctly. This is exacerbated in wrist locks, in which how they feel is a big component in how they work.

When I'm working with a student on hip throws in class, I will do the throw the way they're doing it (which usually fails) and then I'll do it the way I do it (tighten up on their arm and use my feet to make the throw). It's a lot harder to do that over video.

 

[Flying Crane]

And in offense against striking, there are definitely some things you won't get by training on a video - and are even hard to get training online like in our Zoom class. Sparring experience, pad drills, sparring drills, and expert advice are all absent in home training. Even if you have a training partner, you're missing that expert advice. Even on Zoom, we can't hold pads for our students or spar with them.

However, the strike only connects with the opponent at the moment of impact. It's a lot easier to shadow box than it is to shadow roll. It's a lot easier to work on your punches and kicks on a heavy bag, than it is to work on your ground game against a dummy. Effective grappling requires you to read your opponent's energy, so you know where the path of least resistance is. That's something you can only learn against the opponent.

You can still get 50% of the striking practice in, but you'll probably only get 20% of effective grappling training.

That's my opinion, anyway. I think if you have to train from home, striking is much easier than grappling. I think if you can train in a gym, it's going to be much better for both.

I agree with your premise but I'll point out a couple issues with the striking aspect.

In my opinion, people often seem to believe that throwing a punch is a simple thing. To a degree, it is, there is certainly an intuitive level on which the average Joe can just throw it and make it effective. But there are body mechanics that make a punch better, and there are mistakes that can make throwing a punch injurious. I think that is what is difficult to convey over video and makes it difficult for an instructor to correct in a student.

A student can get a heavy bag and start slugging away at it, and may be just fine. It's a good workout, and they can figure out how to land a powerful punch, largely based on physical strength. Good instruction helps them land a better, more powerful and more efficient punch by understanding better body mechanics that are less reliant on raw physical strength.

A student can also throw a punch at a heavy bag and injure his wrist or fist or elbow or shoulder or... That is where good instruction comes in, to make sure the student isn't hurting him/herself as soon as he starts hitting the bag. I think that is where video instruction can break down as well: it's much easier to spot errors and give corrections when the instructor is there working directly with the student.

An experienced person is likely to get more out of this than a complete beginner. If they have already had the benefit of working directly with a good teacher then they already understand the fundamental concepts and have begun to build the skills to a more effective level. This same person is also more likely to be able to simply train on his own, without the video instruction. I am always surprised to find that many people do not ever train at home, outside of class. That is something I've done from the time I began my martial training, I just assumed everyone did that. It builds a level of self-reliance that is important in taking ownership of the instruction and internalizing the skills. That ownership is clearly important in times when training partners and access to instructors is not available. Covid-19 has shown us this in spades.

I agree that video instruction for striking is likely more effective than video instruction for grappling. But I think it's important to keep it in perspective and recognize the shortcomings for striking as well. Throwing an effective, efficient punch with good body mechanics does take instruction. Intuition might be enough for some people, but not for a lot of the folks out there.

I appreciate your thread here and as I say I agree with you. And I appreciate your push to find ways to keep instruction going during the Covid-19 era. But I just wanted to point out a couple issues that folks ought to keep in mind.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I agree with your premise but I'll point out a couple issues with the striking aspect.

In my opinion, people often seem to believe that throwing a punch is a simple thing. To a degree, it is, there is certainly an intuitive level on which the average Joe can just throw it and make it effective. But there are body mechanics that make a punch better, and there are mistakes that can make throwing a punch injurious. I think that is what is difficult to convey over video and makes it difficult for an instructor to correct in a student.

A student can get a heavy bag and start slugging away at it, and may be just fine. It's a good workout, and they can figure out how to land a powerful punch, largely based on physical strength. Good instruction helps them land a better, more powerful and more efficient punch by understanding better body mechanics that are less reliant on raw physical strength.

A student can also throw a punch at a heavy bag and injure his wrist or fist or elbow or shoulder or... That is where good instruction comes in, to make sure the student isn't hurting him/herself as soon as he starts hitting the bag. I think that is where video instruction can break down as well: it's much easier to spot errors and give corrections when the instructor is there working directly with the student.

An experienced person is likely to get more out of this than a complete beginner. If they have already had the benefit of working directly with a good teacher then they already understand the fundamental concepts and have begun to build the skills to a more effective level. This same person is also more likely to be able to simply train on his own, without the video instruction. I am always surprised to find that many people do not ever train at home, outside of class. That is something I've done from the time I began my martial training, I just assumed everyone did that. It builds a level of self-reliance that is important in taking ownership of the instruction and internalizing the skills. That ownership is clearly important in times when training partners and access to instructors is not available. Covid-19 has shown us this in spades.

I agree that video instruction for striking is likely more effective than video instruction for grappling. But I think it's important to keep it in perspective and recognize the shortcomings for striking as well. Throwing an effective, efficient punch with good body mechanics does take instruction. Intuition might be enough for some people, but not for a lot of the folks out there.

I appreciate your thread here and as I say I agree with you. And I appreciate your push to find ways to keep instruction going during the Covid-19 era. But I just wanted to point out a couple issues that folks ought to keep in mind.

Overall, I agree, but I'll offer a counterpoint.

There are schools out there where the teacher/coach is crap at giving detailed, personalized feedback regarding body dynamics. Maybe they have a large class and offer only perfunctory corrections as they walk around. Maybe there's a language barrier. Maybe the teacher is just not skilled at coming up with individualized corrections and just repeats the same truisms that they tell everybody. This sort of training is, if anything, worse than video training because at least with video you can rewind and watch as often as you need. (At least as far as actual instruction - if the class includes regular sparring then the students have a chance to figure stuff out themselves by trial and error.)

And yet, I have seen these sorts of schools and instructors produce competent practitioners. The combination of visual imitation and the feedback from training drills (sparring and otherwise) is apparently sufficient for some people.

I do agree that it's suboptimal, especially for students who aren't naturally talented and need the personalized feedback the most.

 

[WaterGal]

There are some specific grappling skills that can be practiced well enough on your own, like shrimping, break falls, etc. And some simple techniques could be turned into solo drills if you explained it really carefully. But yeah, it's definitely harder to teach grappling solo than to teach striking solo.

 

[skribs]

There are schools out there where the teacher/coach is crap at giving detailed, personalized feedback regarding body dynamics. Maybe they have a large class and offer only perfunctory corrections as they walk around. Maybe there's a language barrier. Maybe the teacher is just not skilled at coming up with individualized corrections and just repeats the same truisms that they tell everybody. This sort of training is, if anything, worse than video training because at least with video you can rewind and watch as often as you need. (At least as far as actual instruction - if the class includes regular sparring then the students have a chance to figure stuff out themselves by trial and error.)

This is one thing I was thinking. There's a guy in my Hapkido class that is miles better than me. He's done it for twice as long, and I'd say he's twice as good as me. In that class, he's a black belt, and I'm just a red belt.

But when a new person comes in, I feel I'm the better teacher. I feel I'm better at explaining the curriculum, better at encouraging them as they start, and better at helping them troubleshoot their issues. This is in part because I have more experience teaching (6 years teaching Taekwondo as a main instructor, he has a lot less experience as an assistant instructor in TKD and not much as an instructor in Hapkido), but also my previous experience as a math tutor and my leadership skills in other areas.

To be fair, he's getting a lot better at it. But there are times when I see a new person come in and I can't help but wish that I was the one to start teaching them instead of him. Maybe there's a little bit of ego in there.

 

[Flying Crane]

Overall, I agree, but I'll offer a counterpoint.

There are schools out there where the teacher/coach is crap at giving detailed, personalized feedback regarding body dynamics. Maybe they have a large class and offer only perfunctory corrections as they walk around. Maybe there's a language barrier. Maybe the teacher is just not skilled at coming up with individualized corrections and just repeats the same truisms that they tell everybody. This sort of training is, if anything, worse than video training because at least with video you can rewind and watch as often as you need. (At least as far as actual instruction - if the class includes regular sparring then the students have a chance to figure stuff out themselves by trial and error.)

And yet, I have seen these sorts of schools and instructors produce competent practitioners. The combination of visual imitation and the feedback from training drills (sparring and otherwise) is apparently sufficient for some people.

I do agree that it's suboptimal, especially for students who aren't naturally talented and need the personalized feedback the most.

I can’t really find much to disagree with here. Quality runs from dismal to excellent from one school to another. None of this is absolute for everyone.

 

[skribs]

I can’t really find much to disagree with here. Quality runs from dismal to excellent from one school to another. None of this is absolute for everyone.

And there are some things that work better for some people and not for others. My Master has a very different teaching style than I'd personally like to use. In most cases, I do things his way (because he's the Master), but in the back of my head I have my own ideas for later on when I'm in charge.

I've been doing this for several years. And what I've found...his system works. Even the parts I don't like, they do work. They work in different ways than my ideas would. They have their own pros and cons. And in a lot of cases, I would adopt some of the teaching style I've learned from him, instead of my own original ideas (or at least find a happy medium between the two). I was having a conversation with the other highest-ranking black belt in my class, and he said if he ran a school, it probably wouldn't survive, because he'd be too hard on people. Which is probably what would happen if I had opened a school with all of my ideas back when I started teaching.

Still, even though I'd use some of those lessons I've learned about teaching from my Master, I'd still probably have a different curriculum and teaching style if I ran my own place. It would teach all of the same stuff, just structured in a different way that makes more sense to me. It would be based on my own opinions, opinions I've gotten on here and on Reddit, and opinions I have from my fellow classmates (in addition to my Master's teachings). And in the end, I think this would be the result:

• Some people would learn better under my style
• Some people would learn better under my Master's style
• Some people would learn well under both styles
• Some people would learn poorly under both styles

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

- control of your own body (with regard to body dynamics and proper form)
- control of your opponent/your own body in relation to your opponent.

If you let your right arm to be your body, let your left arm to be your opponent's body, you can still train many useful wrestling skill by yourself.

Have you ever train how to wrestle between your own arms? Here is a self-training to share:

1. Right hand grab on left wrist with tiger mouth pointing to left hand.
2. Left arm rotate inward against right thumb to break the grip.
3. Right hand slide to left elbow.
4. Left hand rotate inward, under right arm, and control right elbow.
5. Right hand slide to left shoulder.
6. Pull left shoulder back, use left ridge hand to break right hand's shoulder control.
7. Repeat 1 - 6 and reverse left hand and right hand.

In this short training, 6 important principles are trained here.

1. Correct way of doing wrist control (tiger mouth pointing to yourself).
2. Break grip against thumb (against 1 finger instead of against 4 fingers).
3. Advance from wrist gate to elbow gate.
4. Control inside and control on top.
5. Advance from elbow gate to shoulder gate.
6. Use body rotation and ridge hand to break shoulder control.

I'm sure other people can create many useful self-training drills like this. In this kind of training, the wrestling art has advantage over the striking art since distance is not an issue for the wrestling art.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

There are some specific grappling skills that can be practiced well enough on your own, ...

Agree! It's time to build up strong foundation.

 

[JP3]

I agree with the premise as stated in the O/P. Video is much, much better for remote-learning striking arts than grappling arts.


Also, agree witht he statement by Tony about still missing pieces/parts of the striking arts if you've not got another body to borrow to learn from.