The way of the foot and the fist

[Manny]

Tae Kwon Do The way of the foot and the fist well how many of us train this way? I don't. In dojang we practice only kicks and the only time when we do some punches are: a) Self Defense Techs/ One Step Sparring and b) doing kyorugi at a rate of maybe one punch for every 10 or so kick.

We don't do hand/arms condition for punching, my sambonim bought 4 heavy bags that are resting in the locker room, since sambonim bought them we used then twice!

In our dojang (KKW/WTF) we do and practice mostly kicks, my sambonim is a high ranking dan recognized even in korea and another countries because of the F.I.S.U. so we can say my sambonim is a well versed TKD teacher, eh is an international judge (referee) too.

My TKD is a little diferent I like to use hands in a boxer way you know cross,upercuts,hooks,etc. (I am not a boxer but it will be nice to have some boxing clases) so basically my TKD is like full contact contests you know kicks and some punches.

I don't know why some sambonims who adhrere completly to WTF don't train more their hands of his/hers students, why their don't encourage something like continus fighting inside the dojang?

When I run the class the students get confused cause I like to do basics like doing stances,blocks,punches and hand techs and kicks using korean comands and they are used to only kicks. We don't have hand mitts for practicing punches or hand techs the only thing we used are the palchagis for kicking.

Is the WTF way of training/competeing so strong to forget about natural strong weapons like the hands?

Manny

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Is the WTF way of training/competeing so strong to forget about natural strong weapons like the hands?

No. It is about where the trend is and what the WTF is trying to showcase. Kicks are harder to learn than punches. Most people can punch marginally well with zero training. Kicking is another matter.

The WTF rule set was, if I recall, originally Jidokwan sparring, and is used because it differentiates taekwondo tournaments from Karate tournaments. The sport has developed and evolved to such a degree that it is really an entirely different activity from the martial art of taekwondo.

The paradigm of each is very different, and in many ways, incompatible. Not a good or bad, but incompatible. Stance, the way that the hands are held, and choice of attack and attack targets are all different. One is a full blown martial art and the other is foot fencing.

The WTF rule set makes for a very challenging match where punches are severely limited and high kicking is highly emphasized. If you train to be a great WTF player, you are going to train very differently than you would if you were training to be a great TKD artist. Not holding one up as better than the other, mind you, but the differences are that substantial, especially at the higher levels.

At this point, one really needs to change its name or the WTF and Kukkiwon need to separate, with the WTF establishing rankings based on competition results rather than geub/dan grades and the Kukkiwon serving the traditional MA.

One area where people focusing on the art should really take notice is on the athleticism of the WTF players. This area tends to be de-emphasized in traditional schools because the focus is on learning a broader range of techniques. But for survival's sake, being in shape is an added bonus in a violent encounter.

Daniel

 

[Miles]

I am very interested to see how the adoption of electronic hogu will change the game in terms of hand techniques. It is true in sparring, we overwhelmingly use our feet over our hands.

In my classes though, we use the focus pads for hand and elbow techniques and the bag for shin and knee kicks.

OT but I haven't seen the movie "Foot Fist Way" someone said it was very funny. When I get some time....

 

[Manny]

One is a full blown martial art and the other is foot fencing. Daniel

I like the term foot fencing jejejejejeje.

Manny

 

[dancingalone]

OT but I haven't seen the movie "Foot Fist Way" someone said it was very funny. When I get some time....

It is funny in a lot of spots but also vulgar with profane language.

The opening montage is hilarious with all the goofy contorted people kicking and screaming and generally having a good time practicing TKD.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I like the term foot fencing jejejejejeje.

Manny

I hope that it does not come across as a dig on the sport, because that is not my intent. But really, I do consider it foot fencing. For those who are not aware, the term fencing comes from offense/defense.

FIE/USFA sport fencing is something that the WTF needs to study intently. The issues that effect both sports are virtually identical, especially now that electronic scoring is entering the WTF lexicon.

But fencing is unhampered by belts and ranks, while belts and ranks are an albatross for the WTF, forcing comparisons to the self defense/fighting system by the same name and dragging it into discussions about what a black belt should and shouldn't be, as well as exacerbating the kiddie black belt issue by having child black belt divisions that, in all honesty, do not require of the child anything that would equivocate to fighting an adult attacker.

The WTF really needs to eliminate belts as a means of ranking competitors and shift to rating and grouping competitors based upon their competition record, age, weight, and gender. Fencing does this and it works very, very well.

Also, fencing in the olympics predates the existence of taekwondo by a few decades, being one the very first sports in the olympics. Why reinvent the wheel when the FIE has already sorted all that out. Just copy them.

I mean why not? They were willing to copy the kyu/dan system imported to them by an occupying power.

The other option would be for the KKW and the WTF to go the Kendo/Kenjutsu rout. One could be taekwondo and the other taekwonsul (which ended up as which is unimportant). Then the sport could be appreciated for what it is, rather than being slammed for what it isn't.

Daniel

 

[ATC]

....The WTF really needs to eliminate belts as a means of ranking competitors and shift to rating and grouping competitors based upon their competition record, age, weight, and gender. Fencing does this and it works very, very well....

Not sure that could work with sport TKD. In fencing you do not really get hurt. Sport TKD is a full contact sport and with kicking to the face and head some 10 year old that has been practicing for 7 years comes across a 10 year old that has only been practicing for 1 year or even 4 years is not really a fair competition. The 10 year old that has less experience would have his spirit broken and may give up the sport altogether. I already see this happening with new black belt going againt veteran black belts for the first time. Watching black belts that have been competing as a black belt for a few year vs. a new black belt will show you that there is a vast gap in skill. You have to keep the belt system as you would not want a green belt any age going against a black belt of the same any age.

 

[StudentCarl]

I am very interested to see how the adoption of electronic hogu will change the game in terms of hand techniques.

During the Coach's Edge seminar refereeing update, the head referee shared that the e-hogu gives judges more freedom to focus their attention on punches along with head kicks.

As long as we stay away from hand socks, it's still a judgment call.

Regards,
Carl

 

[dancingalone]

Not sure that could work with sport TKD. In fencing you do not really get hurt. Sport TKD is a full contact sport and with kicking to the face and head some 10 year old that has been practicing for 7 years comes across a 10 year old that has only been practicing for 1 year or even 4 years is not really a fair competition. The 10 year old that has less experience would have his spirit broken and may give up the sport altogether. I already see this happening with new black belt going againt veteran black belts for the first time. Watching black belts that have been competing as a black belt for a few year vs. a new black belt will show you that there is a vast gap in skill. You have to keep the belt system as you would not want a green belt any age going against a black belt of the same any age.

You could go to a point rating system like in tennis or a handicap like in golf. I appreciate your comment that ranking currently serves as a basis for separating ability groups however.

 

[ATC]

During the Coach's Edge seminar refereeing update, the head referee shared that the e-hogu gives judges more freedom to focus their attention on punches along with head kicks.

As long as we stay away from hand socks, it's still a judgment call.

Regards,
Carl

They do have a E-glove that is used for punches to the hogu. Not using it at this time. I suppect that there are issues with it still. Or USAT just wants judges to still be involved so they opt not to use them.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Not sure that could work with sport TKD. In fencing you do not really get hurt.

Not to be difficult, but fencing is full contact and people do really get hurt. The ratio of injuries is probably about the same, with the added issue of weapons being involved. Weapons breaking during a match have caused very serious injuries, including death (one of the reasons for the rise in popularity of miraging steel blades).

Foil is the least likely for injury due to all contact limited to the torso and the weapon being the lightest. Saber and epee both include head shots and throat shots. Epee includes shots to everything except the back of the skull. Shots to the head are jarring, and shots to the throat will definitely get your attention. Crotch too.

Just consider that a full straight lunge in fencing is the equivalent of punching someone with a three foot steel shaft attached to your fist, concentrating the force of the blow on an area about a quarter of an inch in diameter. Yes, the shaft has some flex. Of course in TKD, your feet are padded and all legal targets are more padded than that, so both sports involve deliver of full force blows that are blunted with protective gear.

Sport TKD is a full contact sport and with kicking to the face and head some 10 year old that has been practicing for 7 years comes across a 10 year old that has only been practicing for 1 year or even 4 years is not really a fair competition.

You should familiarize yourself with the fencing rating system (I am assuming that you are unfamiliar, though I could be wrong). It is set up to account for that. They just don't use colored belts. Fencers start off as unrated. The lowest rating for a fencer is E. Most beginners who have been in enough competitions to have a rating are e-rated. U-rated fencers generally are paired up with other U rated or E rated fencers.

Believe me, the system is very well thought out. Fencing has been at it a lot longer than taekwondo.

I also question how much taekwondo, or any martial art one is effectively practicing below the age of six or seven. Most childs classes are about keeping the kids occupied and moving at that age. But if a kid has been practicing since three, they will probably have started competing sooner, and would thus have a higher rating than the kid who just started a year or two ago.

The 10 year old that has less experience would have his spirit broken and may give up the sport altogether. I already see this happening with new black belt going againt veteran black belts for the first time. Watching black belts that have been competing as a black belt for a few year vs. a new black belt will show you that there is a vast gap in skill. You have to keep the belt system as you would not want a green belt any age going against a black belt of the same any age.

Once again, that is what the ratings are for.

As far as the kid having his spirit broken and quitting because he lost to another ten year old? I think that you are overstating a bit. And if the child is going to quit because he lost a match to another child of the same age, then he probably wasn't really ready for that black belt anyway.

Daniel

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Not sure that could work with sport TKD. In fencing you do not really get hurt. Sport TKD is a full contact sport and with kicking to the face and head some 10 year old that has been practicing for 7 years comes across a 10 year old that has only been practicing for 1 year or even 4 years is not really a fair competition. The 10 year old that has less experience would have his spirit broken and may give up the sport altogether. I already see this happening with new black belt going againt veteran black belts for the first time. Watching black belts that have been competing as a black belt for a few year vs. a new black belt will show you that there is a vast gap in skill. You have to keep the belt system as you would not want a green belt any age going against a black belt of the same any age.

what about boxing? It doesnt use belts but it is full contact , or rugby league etc there would be ways of ranking competitors on their weight , fight record etc that would prevent mis-matches I would imagine. I have to agree with daniel that maybe belts are not the way to go. Olympic sparring is much more sport than it is martial arts so belts are really not necessary in my opinion.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

In my dojang we use a variety of different hand strikes, although only punches in sparring (unless it is black belt sparring). We use Soo Do, Kwon Soo, Yeok Soo, Chong Kwon, Kap Kwon, Yu Kwon, Jang Kwon (for the ladies), and other variations of those techniques in floor exercise, self-defense, breaking, etc.. .

Although we are not WTF, KKW, or ITF, we are USTW which emphasizes ( in theory) the more traditional aspect of TKD.