The threat of a global Aids epidemic is over, say experts

[elder999]

Oh, because gay people have no control over their actions?
Gee, that is sad.

You know, you said this in another thread, and I still don't know what you mean-control their actions, how, exactly?

Oh, and as a BTW, I largely agree with you that most of the people who contract HIV do so through their own risky behavior. I'm not sure how that's pertinent, except that maybe we're seeing a reduction in risky behavior?

When you've contracted a disease, regardless of the vector, you're a "victim" of the disease. That's not political speak, it's medical speak. Having known several victims of the disease, I can say that they were certainly aware of how their own actions led to their becoming victims-kind of like cigarette smokers who get cancer.

 

[CuongNhuka]

it died when alcohol was invented.

 

[Grenadier]

Of course, there will be the unfortunate individual who contracts the disease due to bad screening, etc. The US tennis legend, Arthur Ashe, was a notable example, where he received the AIDS virus from a blood transfusion received during open heart surgery.

Aside from those examples, though, it comes down to anyone, gay or not, being tested, to make sure that he / she is AIDS-free, especially in this day and age, where testing is readily obtainable. Even taking time to donate a pint of blood can get you the answer.

If someone has unprotected sex with multiple partners (gay or straight; it doesn't matter), and doesn't tell them about the promiscuous nature of their lifes, then that is a behavioral issue that could have been prevented, had someone been more responsible. In fact, I would dare say, that the infected person who wantonly spread around the disease is criminally responsible if he / she knew about it.

If gay people want to have sex, then that's their choice, much like how it is the choice of straight people. With that sexual activity comes the responsibility to make sure that both partners are protected.

 

[Empty Hands]

...although it is interesting that you call gay people names.

I refuse to believe that you are this stupid.

 

[CoryKS]

You said that gays have no self control, not me. And you are still blaming the victim.

And you are still using the phrase "blaming the victim" incorrectly. It refers to an situation, such as rape, in which one attempts to shift the blame from the assailant to the victim due to the behavior of the victim (i.e., she shouldn't have worn that short skirt). Whatever the variables, the assailant made the decision to commit the assault. In this case, there is no blaming the victim because there was no assailant.

Don is simply pointing out that certain behaviors have higher risks attached to them. What you are doing is negating the whole concept of cause and effect - because something bad happened, therefore the person it happened to is blameless.

 

[CuongNhuka]

If someone has unprotected sex with multiple partners (gay or straight; it doesn't matter), and doesn't tell them about the promiscuous nature of their lifes, then that is a behavioral issue that could have been prevented, had someone been more responsible.

Even if you have protected sex. Condoms do break you know.

 

[Big Don]

I refuse to believe that you are this stupid.

I'm sad that I can't believe the same of you. But, that too, is your choice.

 

[CuongNhuka]

Don is simply pointing out that certain behaviors have higher risks attached to them. What you are doing is negating the whole concept of cause and effect - because something bad happened, therefore the person it happened to is blameless.

That's not what I'm saying, and that doesn't like what he is saying. It sounds to me that he is saying that if you're gay and have AIDS, it is completely your own fault. It is not the fault of your partner who didn't know he/she had AIDS. It's not the fault of the partner who knew he/she had AIDS but insisted on 'riding bare back'. It is completely 100% the persons fault that they caught an incurable desease.

I'm saying that if you catch a desease like AIDS, yah you did something to put yourself at risk, but it's not 100% your fault. People do stupid things, espcially when alcohol is involved. Never gotten drunk and woke up next to someone you don't know? It does happen. Besides alot of people don't get tested for deadly deseases until it is too late, because they simply don't believe it could happen to them. That's why so many people get diagnosed with Cancer when they're almost dead. They simply don't believe it could happen to them. Yah, then they'll call up everyone they've 'been with' and let them know, but like I said, people sometimes do stupid things, and condoms do break.

It sounds like (to me) Don is basicly saying anyone who 'gets around' and gets AIDS should blame themselves completely, and not even think about the who they got it from. That's why I said 'blaming the victim', he is basicly saying that because they did something stupid, or just got unlucky, they should blame no one but themselves for catching AIDS.

 

[Big Don]

I'm saying that if you catch a desease like AIDS, yah you did something to put yourself at risk, but it's not 100% your fault.

That is called willful ignorance. You understand, at some level that it is their fault, and yet, have to place a percentage of the blame elsewhere. If their actions aren't 100% their fault, whose fault are they? Is it my fault you misspelled a few words there? Or, should we blame the keyboard, the software, or the engineers who built either one?

It sounds like (to me) Don is basicly saying anyone who 'gets around' and gets AIDS should blame themselves completely, and not even think about the who they got it from.

That isn't basically what I am saying, that is EXACTLY what I am saying. People make choices, some good, some bad, some deadly, but, those who make the choices are the only ones to blame for them. No one else is responsible for your actions, that is what being an adult means.

That's why I said 'blaming the victim', he is basicly saying that because they did something stupid, or just got unlucky, they should blame no one but themselves for catching AIDS.

There was a story, on line this weekend, about a guy who jumped out of a plane with no parachute and died, in your world, he is a victim. In the real world, he died of his actions, that were not smart.

 

[CuongNhuka]

I'm not saying that either. If he jumped out with no parachute, duh it's fault! If he jumped out with a parachute backpack (or what ever the proper term would be) that didn't have a parachute in it, and he didn't know that (cause it had something in it that wieghed the same, and had qualities similar enough to be mistaken for a parachute), then it's partly his fault (I'm sure you can check those things) and it's partly the fault of the person who handed him the chute.

 

[Big Don]

Man jumps from plane with no parachute, dies
AP Story, Too Short To Excerpt:
1 day ago

DUANESBURG, N.Y. (AP) — A 29-year-old man leaped out of a plane at 10,000 feet with a camera but no parachute Saturday. His body was found next to a house with a damaged roof, police said.

Sloan Carafello of Schenectady, who was observing on the flight, followed an instructor, student and videographer out the door, wearing no skydiving gear, officials said.

Police said they did not suspect foul play but would not elaborate.

Robert Rawlins, pilot and owner of the Duanesburg Skydiving Club, said he was flying the single-engine plane and had begun to close the door when Carafello jumped.

His body was found next to a house west of Albany.
(((END STORY)))
He just jumped. No one's fault but, his.

 

[CuongNhuka]

Did I not just say "if he jumped with no parachute it is completewly his fault...." or am I talkin to myself here?

 

[Big Don]

Personal responsibility is apparently as dead as last week's fish. We have people who bought more house than they could afford, with terms they couldn't afford, but, it isn't their fault, it's the lenders'. We have people who have risky sex, do IV drugs and whore around, but, it isn't their fault, it is the fault of who ever infected them.
Being an adult used to mean being of an age and maturity where YOU took responsibility for your actions. If your actions were good, you reaped the rewards, were your actions bad, you paid the price. Somehow, sadly, that is less and less the case these days.

 

[Big Don]

Did I not just say "if he jumped with no parachute it is completewly his fault...." or am I talkin to myself here?

So why is that completewly (sic)his fault, but, someone who contracts AIDS, through risky behaviors is a "victim" in your eyes?

 

[CuongNhuka]

I give up. You just have fun telling your relative who has AIDS that it is there fault.

 

[Grenadier]

I give up. You just have fun telling your relative who has AIDS that it is there fault.

Don may be overly blunt, but he does have a point.

There are many people who will contract AIDS unknowingly, and there was nothing that they could do about it, such as getting bad blood, being raped, or their infected partners entered their lives under a convincing deception. Maybe their partners showed them fabricated tests showing that they were clean, and duped them into thinking that they were OK.

In those cases, it would be virtually impossible to point the finger of blame at them.

However, in the cases of people knowingly having promiscuous, unprotected sex with questionable partners, don't you think that they could have made a better decision, when it came to partner selection or practices?

Or don't you think that they could have put their partners through a litmus test (or more precisely, a STD test) before engaging in sexual activity? If two people truly love each other, then I would think this wouldn't get in the way. Then again, people call me the "37 year old geezer" for saying this...

In this day and age, I know that the answer will be "yes, but..." and I can't disagree, since some people let their raging chemicals make that decision for them, and don't stop to think about the consequences.

It still can come down to a matter of personal responsibility to do what is right. Bad people will still do bad things, such as knowingly spread the virus, but at least the good folks can take precautions to stop the pipeline.

 

[Big Don]

I give up. You just have fun telling your relative who has AIDS that it is there fault.

Unless they were raped, or were transfused with contaminated blood, then it WAS their fault. Not everything is nice and neat. Bad things happen to nice people. Adults take responsibility for their actions.

 

[Twin Fist]

pretty much the entire WORLD's blood supply is tested now, multiple times, so there should be no more Authur Ashe's.

 

[CoryKS]

I really don't see the point of getting wrapped up in who is to blame. Is it any comfort to an AIDS patient to know that he is only responsible for 43.5% of the blame? Will he lay on his deathbed thinking, "well, at least I did my part"?

The point is that there are behaviors that lead to higher risk, and there are precautions one can take to lower these risks. It is an individual's choice to decide what balance of risk/pleasure to seek. But having made the choice, it's rather moot to say "but I was only partly to blame." Maybe, but ya don't partly get AIDS.

Reminds me of a friend who was riding a motorcycle and ran into a car turning left. I asked him why he didn't stop. "Because I had the right of way! Why should I stop?" Well, you got hit, didn't you?

 

[elder999]

Unless they were raped, or were transfused with contaminated blood, then it WAS their fault. Not everything is nice and neat. Bad things happen to nice people. Adults take responsibility for their actions.

A few of the facts that we've learned in the last 25 years make this somewhat disingenuous, Don. The HIV virus can lay dormant in a person's body for 10 years or more-anyone could wind up having unprotected sex with someone who has tested negative, and they've been monogamous and using condoms with for part of that time, and contract HIV-not likely, not often, but it is possible. Ditto HIV contracted from blood treatments, rapes, etc.

One could utilize a modicum of caution, common sense and all the protective measures, and still contract HIV. There also documented rare cases of infection from sources other than mainstream-a pair of brothers who shared a razor, for one example, but a few transmissions from infected children where there was no sexual activity or blood exchange as well-these are not the norm, of course, but they have ocurred.Bone marrow tranplants and bone transplants from cadavers have also transmitted HIV.