The SIRT Firearm Training Simulator

[Alan0354]

It's not a matter of opinion. It's a matter of using standard definitions and actual facts. You claim that semi-auto pistols are not reliable. That's crap. You re-define words instead of using the accepted definitions. That's also crap.

I did not said semi auto are not reliable, I said you have to make it reliable in a lot of case. I test my guns with the worst ammo. OF CAUSE, if I use good rounds like Federal hollow points that has a more rounded tip, it's very reliable. BUT that does NOT tell you how much tolerance you have. I use the very weak reload, then I have all sort of FTF and FTE. The shell barely jump out. then I have to work on the feed ramp, extractor, ejector and even polish the ejector port to make it totally reliable. Then when I use back the Federal rounds, it eject beautifully and casing jump very far away.

We have a DIFFERENT standard of RELIABILITY. I am talking about perfection.

Try the Blazer .45 hollow points, the front is like an ashtray. If you can make it feed reliably on a 1911, you know what you are doing. Of cause, it's so easy to get reliability with the right bullets.

Of cause, you can have reliability easily with any gun if you shoot factor round nose FMJ. If the gun fails with that, it has issues!!! I made my PPK shoot perfect with Winchester Silver Tips that has a wide mouth JHP. The empty shell eject like 5 to 6ft away. this is reliability.

 

[Alan0354]

Exactly. There is nothing that compares to shooting real people.

Ha ha, I won't go that far. But you really need to get the feel of the real thing. It's not the same.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I did not said semi auto are not reliable,

Most important, small semi auto is NOT as reliable as the larger ones like Glock. They jam.

Go on youtube, those really small ones are not all reliable. I

If you try looking for 9mm that is about 15oz, you will find it's hard to find a true reliable one.

Did you forget what you said, or is this just backpedaling?

I don't run my Vette on low octane gas. I don't buy junk guns. Why would I fire junk ammo?

 

[Buka]

Did you forget what you said, or is this just backpedaling?

I don't run my Vette on low octane gas. I don't buy junk guns. Why would I fire junk ammo?

I'm with you, brother. My old department wouldn't even allow reloads on our range. Top notch, boxed factory ammo only.

And, yeah, they had a really large budget.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I'm with you, brother. My old department wouldn't even allow reloads on our range. Top notch, boxed factory ammo only.

And, yeah, they had a really large budget.

I carry Hornady Critical Defense. Not cheap, but not outrageous either. It's defense ammo and doesn't get fired all that often. Once a year or so I'll fire what's been in the gun and replace it. Otherwise it just sits in the mags. For range day, I use various quality jacketed ammo with the same general specifications as the Hornady. I buy a few thousand rounds at a time when it's on sale. It's reasonably cheap, and makes clean up a lot easier than the super cheap lead slugs.

 

[Alan0354]

Did you forget what you said, or is this just backpedaling?

I don't run my Vette on low octane gas. I don't buy junk guns. Why would I fire junk ammo?

You missed the whole point. You want MARGIN. Don't think just because you shoot good in the range, that you can be calm and cool in life and death situation. You never heard of guns tend to jam in situation where you are nervous and hand shakes a little. That's when you need margin on the gun that even if the shooting situation is NOT perfect, the gun still can shoot reliably.

I hope you read about this, if not, you really really need to look deeper. I have my Gold Cup work to as reliable as possible, the only time it FTF is during the competition. Never before and never after. It was stupid of me to use the Blazer JHP that the front shaped like an ashtray also. Live and learn. It did not cause me the competition, I was the second, but the champion was so far ahead of me even if my gun did not jam, I won't be able to catch up with him.

KEY is to test your gun with the WORST possible rounds, make it reliable, then you put in the best rounds for self defense. This will give you the margin in case your hand is shaking, you can't hold the gun in perfect grip or you have to run and shoot where the gun is bounce up and down.

Hell, it's too too easy to claim the gun is reliable if I choose one brand and model that can feed reliably. THIS IS CHILD'S PLAY. I go so far beyond that!!! That's why I learn gun smithing, not for the fun of it. I sent guns out before, they did a lousy job. I am good with my hands and I have like a small workshop in my garage. I am talking about SERIOUS stuffs here.


I have to say, the design of semi auto took a quantum leap in the last 30 years. You can see the ejector port is much larger, than the old 1911 etal. This really eliminates the ejection problem. The old ones like mine, you really have to have skill to make it reliable. Also, the feed ramp of the new Glock is a lot smoother, the old ones are rough. You should see my old Gold Cup, it's so rough inside. Poor workmanship.

 

[Alan0354]

I know you put a laugh. I question how much you know the mechanics of guns.

 

[Alan0354]

I know you put a laugh. I question how much you know the mechanics of guns.

Guess not. It's obvious with the laugh. This is SO SO BASIC.

Even Kimber on youtube try to blame people don't hold their small pistol tight that cause the jam.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I know you put a laugh. I question how much you know the mechanics of guns.

I think you're funny. I don't think you're intentionally funny, but funny nonetheless.
I know enough about the mechanics of guns to do all my own gunsmithing. While that's pretty trivial on something like a Glock, modifying things like my various 1911's is not.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Glocks are not bulky.

Glocks are not inherently larger, nor are larger guns always Glocks.
Your statement that smaller semi-autos are inherently less reliable is, in my experience, utter nonsense. I routinely carry a Glock 19. My wife prefers the 26. We own everything from the tiny little 42 and 43 to a suppressed extended slide 41. We also own 1911s in single and double stack variants. Sig-Sauer, Ruger, Para-Ordnance, Bersa, Beretta, Taurus... we have them all. The difference in reliability is non-existent. All of our guns have had thousands of rounds run through them without issue.
Your comment about unavailability of double action semi-autos is also completely wrong. Ruger, Beretta, Walther, Bersa, and others all sell semi-autos with safety/decockers.

Hey DD,

What no H&K's ? or were they part of the ...

From one of the shooting TV competition shows the Competition Glock shooter had a difficult time and kept complaining about the different grip angle that every other gun had.

Have you seen or know any issues moving from Non Glock to Glock and back to non Glock based around grip to barrel angle?

 

[Alan0354]

I think you're funny. I don't think you're intentionally funny, but funny nonetheless.
I know enough about the mechanics of guns to do all my own gunsmithing. While that's pretty trivial on something like a Glock, modifying things like my various 1911's is not.

Oh, now you are into gun smithing also!! How many 1911 you worked on and accurized? I think you are too fast to dismiss what I said. I am really surprised you don't know what is accurizing. Particularly the 1911. There's a whole book on this. squeezing the slide and lap it to a tight fit, find a link so you don't have play when you push the chamber from the top. You have to work a lot on the extractor to make it eject reliable.............

I guess we have a very different definition of accuracy and reliability. My definition of accurate is less than 2" grouping at 25yds in sand bagging with NO FLYERS. I never use scope on the gun, I really think the 2" is more on the limitation of my eyes than the gun. Like I said before, I am not a very good shooter, but I can consistently put over 90% into the black circle at 25yds with moderate speed ( about 60 rounds in 10 minutes session.) free hand shooting, Not bang bang bang type of useless shooting at less than 10 yds, actually shooting. I can assure you not too many guns can do 2" grouping no matter how you sand bag, clamp or anything. Even my 8" Colt Trooper can have fliers. You really have to accurize the S&W to get that. That include a tight gap between force cone and the cylinder, smoothed trigger and all that to achieve that. So far, the only two I have that can achieve this kind of accuracy is the Gold Cup after accurization and surprisingly the cheap Ruger Mark II bull barrel 22LR. I am borned cheap, I don't even know how many 10s of thousands of rounds I put through that Ruger, I shot so much I even broke the hammer spring housing!!! AND I REPEAT, I NEVER have a miss-fire with 22LR after 10s of thousands of rounds. I don't even remember I ever have a stoppage with the Ruger straight out of the box.

It is absolute NONSENSE for you to say rim fire round are not reliable. I have 10s of thousands of rounds to back what I said.

We obviously have a very different definition of reliability and accuracy. I heard Sig might be better, I don't think accuracy and Glock can be put in the same sentence. I'd be damn if I can get 3" grouping at 25yds in stock form. I know my 659 and the PPK is NOT even close. As for reliability, if your life depends on it, you BETTER have a lot of margins so when you are running, nervous, and in tense situation, your gun still can fire reliably. You better read more about all the complains about guns jam if you don't hold it right or tight enough, that you don't have time to set and pull the trigger.That's when you need all the reliability margin. OF CAUSE, after the testing, I put the best rounds in the guns for self defense, you just test with the ones that always give guns problem and make the gun flawless. Like I said, the only time my Gold Cup jammed was during competition, never before and never after after I worked on the gun. $hit just happens in the wrong moment where you really depends on it.

I did say glock has a much better design, huge ejection port that solve most of the problem. I can only buy gen3, I am still waiting for the gen5 ejector as it's beefier and have more metal for shaping if I want to. Another thing is the stock extractor is casted, I want to get a forged one, also a load chamber indicator. I doubt glock is anywhere close my Gold Cup in accuracy, fitting is loose.

I notice the finishing inside the Glock 26 is a lot better than the Gold Cup. I don't think I need to polish the feedramp and chamber, it's very smooth already from stock. Guns from the 80s or older are really rough, nothing smooth, I don't even know how can people claim they are reliable those days. Everything is rough and bad fitting.

 

[Alan0354]

Hey DD,

What no H&K's ? or were they part of the ...

From one of the shooting TV competition shows the Competition Glock shooter had a difficult time and kept complaining about the different grip angle that every other gun had.

Have you seen or know any issues moving from Non Glock to Glock and back to non Glock based around grip to barrel angle?

I think there's a lot of cry babies. You ever measure the angle of the grip of a revolver, a lot of them are very slanted, not straight. You ever heard of people complaining the revolvers' slanted butts? People just complain about Glock has a slanted butt. If you take a split second to aim, there should be no problem. People just get into those bang bang bang shooting without aiming. That's really bad habit. Take a split second to aim, don't just go bang bang bang bang!!! It's dangerous in real life situation, the bullets will fly all over the place and hit innocent people that you don't intend to shoot. Take a split second to aim!!!

 

[caped crusader]

You are the moderator, can you reply with a little respect.

I am guessing he´s the local Sheriff somewhere !

 

[Dirty Dog]

Hey DD,

What no H&K's ? or were they part of the ...

I've never owned an H&Km but I've got a friend who owns several. I've used them, and they do seem very well put together.

From one of the shooting TV competition shows the Competition Glock shooter had a difficult time and kept complaining about the different grip angle that every other gun had.

The Glock grip angle is definitely different. I've heard other people complain about it.

Have you seen or know any issues moving from Non Glock to Glock and back to non Glock based around grip to barrel angle?

I think it depends on the person and perhaps how often they change back and forth. I've never personally found it to be an issue. I can tell they're different when I pick them up, but it doesn't really affect shooting, and I can't say I even notice it after the first few seconds.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Oh, now you are into gun smithing also!!

Is it a big surprise to learn that someone works on their own guns?

I guess we have a very different definition of accuracy and reliability. My definition of accurate is less than 2" grouping at 25yds in sand bagging with NO FLYERS.

When I'm bullseye shooting, I have no problem with that level of accuracy. But I'm more interested in practical shooting, which is rapid fire. And you don't want that small a grouping. You want a 6-8" grouping. I can do 100 rounds in that group as fast as I can reload and fire.

I never use scope on the gun,

A scope? On a handgun? That's always seemed silly to me.

I really think the 2" is more on the limitation of my eyes than the gun. Like I said before, I am not a very good shooter, but I can consistently put over 90% into the black circle at 25yds with moderate speed ( about 60 rounds in 10 minutes session.) free hand shooting,

Yeah. Slow, aimed, bullseye shooting.

We obviously have a very different definition of reliability and accuracy. I heard Sig might be better, I don't think accuracy and Glock can be put in the same sentence. I'd be damn if I can get 3" grouping at 25yds in stock form.

It's a mistake to blame your limitations on the gun.

 

[Alan0354]

It's a mistake to blame your limitations on the gun.

Try 25yds with your guns and come back to tell me. Use sand bag to help. I'd be damn if you can get 3" or better with those high capacity 9mm. You can even use scope if you want to to totally eliminate human limitation. It will be interesting to find out.

I can only say for myself that for free hand shooting I can get over 90% in the black at 25yds ONLY with the Gold Cup, Ruger Mark II, Colt Trooper 8" and S&W M19(before I ruin it, that's another story for different time). The 9mm M659 and the others are all over the place. I can only say I get 100% onto the paper, it's all over the place.

The way you shoot rapid fire is all on how good you are, not the gun as the target is very close. Any reasonable gun can have good grouping at that distance. It's the 25yds that really test the gun. 50yds is too far, wind becomes a big factor. I remember I shot 50yds, one day, I can hit it good, another day it's all over the place...........Only explanation is the wind. Particular the 22LR. I know because I shoot my Ruger 22LR rifle (with scope) and same result also.

I never have a chance to do bang bang bang bang type shooting. The range where I went did not allow rapid shooting. AND they don't have close distance target. Rapid firing only gets popular after my time. At the time, I practiced resting the gun on the table and look away. Then I raise the gun, aim and shoot very quick at 25yds. This was the way I practice fast firing, limiting myself to split second aim time before pulling the trigger. Huge difference in accuracy!!! I can only say I manage to put 100% onto the paper at 25yds. it's all over the paper, forget grouping!!!

I was surprised when you say you do gun smithing because it sounded like you don't know what I am talking about accurizing. There's so much talk about accurizing and customizing 1911. I have a whole book on it how to accurizing 1911. Including squeezing the slide, lapping with the frame to get a perfect fit and all that. Gun smithing is NOT rocket science, don't even need a lot of tools. A good set of Dremo rubber bits, a set of honing stone sticks, a big vise(huge one for squeezing the slide) and other basic hand tools. I worked on cars a lot in my younger days, so I have all the tools I need. It is nothing challenging. 1911 is MADE for modifications. Only think that gets scary is polishing the trigger notch to get rid of creeps to have a clean break.


As for my S&W M19, I customized it so good. It was so accurate. I polished the inside so good, the double action is so smooth with not tightening at the end of the pull at all. The force cone to cylinder was tight to about 0.004" space. Problem is it started to bind after shooting like 50 rounds. The book said the gap can be like 0.006". So I filed the force cone down a little to just a little below 0.006". I LOST IT!! I lost the tightness of the grouping!!! DAMN. Such a perfect gun and I ruined it.

 

[lklawson]

Why on earth would you want a double action semi-auto?

The heavier, longer, revolver-like trigger pull replaces manual safeties. Several manufacturers have used DAO triggers on their ultra-small pocket guns instead of thumb safeties. Examples include the Kel Tec P11, PF9, P32, P3AT, the Ruger LCP and LC9, the Taurus TCP 738 and 732, the Rohrbaugh R9, the Remington RM380, and there are other examples.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

Try 25yds with your guns and come back to tell me.

Alan,

You've made a lot of assumptions in this thread about other people's skill, experience, and abilities. For instance you assumed 'dog didn't know what "accurizing" a 1911 is or how it's done. Anyone into guns who's born before 1970 knows what it is. You assume that you have skills and knowledge that the people you are talking to do not. These are inaccurate assumptions and it shows. Frankly, I feel a bit embarrassed for you.

Take it easy. Slow down. Don't assume that you are here to teach people stuff. What ever it is that you know and can do, someone here knows more and can do it better. I guarantee it.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk