The result of 'concealed carry laws'.

[sgtmac_46]

* Florida adopted a right-to-carry law in 1987. At the time the law was passed, critics predicted increases in violence. The founder of the National Organization of Women, Betty Friedan stated:

"lethal violence, even in self defense, only engenders more violence." (13)​

* When the law went into effect, the Dade County Police began a program to record all arrest and non arrest incidents involving concealed carry licensees. Between September of 1987 and August of 1992, Dade County recorded 4 crimes committed by licensees with firearms. None of these crimes resulted in an injury. The record keeping program was abandoned in 1992 because there were not enough incidents to justify tracking them. (13)(15)

* Florida adopted a right-to-carry law in 1987. Between 1987 and 1996, these changes occurred:

---------------------------Florida------------United States

homicide rate- ------------(-36%)--------------(-4%)
firearm homicide rate-------(-37%)-------------(+15%)
handgun homicide rate------(-41%)-------------(+24%)
(3)

* 221,443 concealed carry licenses were issued in Florida between October of 1987 and April of 1994. During that time, Florida recorded 18 crimes committed by licensees with firearms. (15)

* As of 1998, nationwide, there has been 1 recorded incident in which a permit holder shot someone following a traffic accident. The permit holder was not charged, as the grand jury ruled the shooting was in self defense. (7)

* As of 1998, no permit holder has ever shot a police officer. There have been several cases in which a permit holder has protected an officer's life. (7)
http://www.justfacts.com/gun_control.htm

http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdgcon.html
http://www.chronwatch.com/content/contentDisplay.asp?aid=8443
http://hematite.com/dragon/gcmythexplode.html


I was just perusing data on the result of 'shall issue' concealed carry laws around the country, thought these were interesting. I remember when this was an issue in Missouri, the anti-gunners predicted shootouts in the streets after traffic collisions. So far, there was only one recorded shootout in the entire country following a traffic collision involving a concealed carry permit holder....and it was ruled self-defense. So much for the predictive ability of the anti-gun lobby.

Anyone have any other data that directly deals with this issue, or any comments?

 

[DngrRuss]

An armed society is a polite society.

 

[Ceicei]

Intriguing. Are there records of such State-by-State statistics at a click that could be viewed in comparison regarding those who are licensed? That is making me quite curious. I know that the info probably could be found with some research. I just wondered if it is all there with graphs, etc., of each state. I suppose that might be asking too much as I realize the states do have different definitions of how they report these incidents.

- Ceicei

 

[sgtmac_46]

An armed society is a polite society.

It is......so long as the arms are possessed by the law abiding citizen.

Most societies are armed, however, in some socieities, such as Great Britain at the present time, only the brigand is armed. It is impossible to disarm an entire society without resorting to draconian measures that restrict ALL freedoms. Therefore, the only people likely armed, as Great Britain is learning, in a society where civilian arms are banned, are those who have no interest in obeying the laws to begin with.

All indication is that the illegal arms trade in Great Britain is exploding. The criminal element in Britain are buying up imported illegal arms left and right, while the citizen is restricted from even possessing so much as a 100 year old single-shot shotgun.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Intriguing. Are there records of such State-by-State statistics at a click that could be viewed in comparison regarding those who are licensed? That is making me quite curious. I know that the info probably could be found with some research. I just wondered if it is all there with graphs, etc., of each state. I suppose that might be asking too much as I realize the states do have different definitions of how they report these incidents.

- Ceicei

That'll require some extensive research, but i'll see what I can do. As a start, we can examine this, however.

'All major categories of violent crime in the United States declined in 2004, bringing the rates of the most serious offenses, including murders, rapes, robberies and assaults, to a level 32 percent lower than those reported in 1995, the new figures show.'
http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/10/17/crime.rate/

This, despite the fact that more than half the states in the US have passed, in the last 10 years, concealled carry laws in some form or another AND the fact that more guns are in circulation now than ever before.

So, even if concealled carry laws haven't REDUCED crime, Zero evidence exists to show it increases it. At BEST gun control is useless. At worst, it actually increases violent crime. That's why you'll find the greatest arguments against concealled carry laws being that the drop in violent crime has nothing to do with them....meaning, they can't support that concealled carry laws cause harm, they merely attempt to refute the fact that they are useful in preventing crime....a dubious argument, when their goal is to curtail freedom. They wish to reduce your ability to engage in an activity, the usefulness of restricting which it has been determined to be pointless.

 

[Bigshadow]

I am concealed carry permitted citizen in the state of Florida. It is nice to have and I have a permit just because I CAN! Another great thing is the reciprocity act. I can legally carry a concealed handgun in 23 other states as a result. Many states have reciprocity acts that state if another state honors their CCW permit theirs will be honored in the other state as well. So now permitted citizens don't have to be as concerned when they go to other states, just they need to be aware of the ones they can legally carry in and any special limitations in those states.

As an aside, I wanted to point out that the 2nd Ammendment really was not addressing self defense or personal carry. It represents the citizens' liberty teeth and is a right bestowed on the citizens so that the citizens could protect themselves from an out of control government. It kind of goes along with the 2nd paragraph of the Declaration of Independence.

Personal carry and defensive use are bonuses

 

[sgtmac_46]

I am concealed carry permitted citizen in the state of Florida. It is nice to have and I have a permit just because I CAN! Another great thing is the reciprocity act. I can legally carry a concealed handgun in 23 other states as a result. Many states have reciprocity acts that state if another state honors their CCW permit theirs will be honored in the other state as well. So now permitted citizens don't have to be as concerned when they go to other states, just they need to be aware of the ones they can legally carry in and any special limitations in those states.

As an aside, I wanted to point out that the 2nd Ammendment really was not addressing self defense or personal carry. It represents the citizens' liberty teeth and is a right bestowed on the citizens so that the citizens could protect themselves from an out of control government. It kind of goes along with the 2nd paragraph of the Declaration of Independence.

Personal carry and defensive use are bonuses

No society is truly free, when it's citizens are denied the private ownership of arms. A society that denies it's citizens private arms, is only as free as the government allows it to be, no more, no less. Private arms represent the ultimate veto power of the people.

"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." Mahatma Gandhi

 

[arnisador]

Recent case here in NM where a woman was being stabbed in a Wal-Mart and someone with a concealed weapon permit shot the attacker dead. People were glad she lived but scared by the thought of a civilian firing shots in a Wal-Mart.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Recent case here in NM where a woman was being stabbed in a Wal-Mart and someone with a concealed weapon permit shot the attacker dead. People were glad she lived but scared by the thought of a civilian firing shots in a Wal-Mart.

I imagine so, with all the scare tactics the news media in particular and the media in general (including the entertainment industry) have whipped up to create an image of anyone who supports firearms ownership and concealed carry as 'paranoid kooks', when, in reality, the citizen firearms owner and concealled carry permit holder is the LEAST of societies concerns.

The perceptions being fostered by certain interest groups, and parroted in the popular media, have little basis in reality.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Recent case here in NM where a woman was being stabbed in a Wal-Mart and someone with a concealed weapon permit shot the attacker dead. People were glad she lived but scared by the thought of a civilian firing shots in a Wal-Mart.

He should get an award.

 

[arnisador]

It turned out well...but, letting someone open up in a Wal-Mart, which is always filled to 110% capacity, is a tad scary to my mind.

 

[sgtmac_46]

It turned out well...but, letting someone open up in a Wal-Mart, which is always filled to 110% capacity, is a tad scary to my mind.

Scarier than watching some innocent get stabbed to death?

The whole scenario was scary...however, the citizen shooting part was the solution to a scary situation, not the problem. The question isn't one of whether someone should have been allowed to shoot in that situation. At that point it becomes one of shot placement. A simple matter of front sight, press.

"You know your country is dying when you have to make a distinction between what is moral and ethical, and what is legal." -- John De Armond

 

[Jonathan Randall]

I imagine so, with all the scare tactics the news media in particular and the media in general (including the entertainment industry) have whipped up to create an image of anyone who supports firearms ownership and concealed carry as 'paranoid kooks', when, in reality, the citizen firearms owner and concealled carry permit holder is the LEAST of societies concerns.

I know, and I'd like to think that if I were in a crowded restaurant or mall and some weirdo opened fire, CCW's would return fire. Not likely (return fire in self-defence), unfortunately, as I live in California. Off duty police officers, even, IIRC, are not permitted to bring weapons on school grounds. That's really, really smart as it ensures a large mass of UNARMED victims by ensuring that no person with training and a weapon could possibly be on-site unless they were state payed and approved.

There is some good movement on this issue, though, as many who are not traditional conservatives are becoming pro-gun. A local firebrand liberal talk show radio host is VERY pro-gun and thinks gun control is for idiots.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

I am concealed carry permitted citizen in the state of Florida. It is nice to have and I have a permit just because I CAN! Another great thing is the reciprocity act. I can legally carry a concealed handgun in 23 other states as a result. Many states have reciprocity acts that state if another state honors their CCW permit theirs will be honored in the other state as well. So now permitted citizens don't have to be as concerned when they go to other states, just they need to be aware of the ones they can legally carry in and any special limitations in those states.

Good for you! Anyone who lives in a hurricane state must be armed. Your emergency supplies are only yours if you can defend them, yourself and your family.

As a liberal retired Air Force Officer friend of mine points out, lots of people had guns when he was growing up but nobody used them. No, today's problem with violence is not easy access to firearms. Many, if not most, firearms used illegally, IIRC, are STOLEN, not legally licensed and purchased.

 

[arnisador]

Scarier than watching some innocent get stabbed to death?

Well...an idiot with a pistol has a lot of potential to do damage.

It turned out well, but it's easy to imagine how it could have turned out poorly.

Anyway, calm down. I'm not calling for a governmental ban on firearms, and no one will be prying your gun from your cold, dead fingers. I'm saying that having a civilian open fire in a Wal-Mart is a scary thought because of all that could go wrong. Are you really disagreeing with that? Is everyone who gets a conceealed carry permit as well-trained in firearms and use of force as a LEO?

 

[arnisador]

Anyone who lives in a hurricane state must be armed. Your emergency supplies are only yours if you can defend them, yourself and your family.

True. I intended to get a firearm when I lived in earthquake country, but never quite got around to it (or an emergency water supply, etc.).

 

[sgtmac_46]

I know, and I'd like to think that if I were in a crowded restaurant or mall and some weirdo opened fire, CCW's would return fire. Not likely (return fire in self-defence), unfortunately, as I live in California. Off duty police officers, even, IIRC, are not permitted to bring weapons on school grounds. That's really, really smart as it ensures a large mass of UNARMED victims by ensuring that no person with training and a weapon could possibly be on-site unless they were state payed and approved.

There is some good movement on this issue, though, as many who are not traditional conservatives are becoming pro-gun. A local firebrand liberal talk show radio host is VERY pro-gun and thinks gun control is for idiots.

Fortunately, increasingly people are seeing the firearms issue as not a conservative issue, but the freedom issue it is. Private arms should be a concern of everyone, conservative or otherwise, who believe in individual freedom. It's always concerned me that the ACLU has taken such extremists stances on other issues of Constitutional Freedoms, but has virtually ignored, and taken a neutral stance entirely, on the 2nd Amendment.

The history of gun-control in the US is an interesting. Beginning, as it so happens, in the reconstruction south where whites passed black codes to restrict former slaves from possessing arms, and therefore, being able to defend themselves from organizations lik the KKK. In fact, local sheriff's were known to round up the firearms of northern slaves conveniently before the KKK swooped down upon them.

Again, this isn't a conservative or liberal issue, it's a basic freedoms issue. Even Gandhi himself, the pacifist that he was, condemned the British for denying personal arms to Indians.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

Well...an idiot with a pistol has a lot of potential to do damage.

It turned out well, but it's easy to imagine how it could have turned out poorly.

Anyway, calm down. I'm not calling for a governmental ban on firearms, and no one will be prying your gun from your cold, dead fingers. I'm saying that having a civilian open fire in a Wal-Mart is a scary thought because of all that could go wrong. Are you really disagreeing with that? Is everyone who gets a conceealed carry permit as well-trained in firearms and use of force as a LEO?

Yes, it is a frightening prospect - although apparently justified in this case. I think CCW holders should have to undergo some training beyond passing a simple firearms safety course.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Well...an idiot with a pistol has a lot of potential to do damage.

It turned out well, but it's easy to imagine how it could have turned out poorly.

Yes, they have a potential to do damage. Of course, so does any moron with a driver's license. In fact, moron's with driver's license are far more dangerous, and receive far less training.

Anyway, calm down. I'm not calling for a governmental ban on firearms, and no one will be prying your gun from your cold, dead fingers. I'm saying that having a civilian open fire in a Wal-Mart is a scary thought because of all that could go wrong. Are you really disagreeing with that? Is everyone who gets a conceealed carry permit as well-trained in firearms and use of force as a LEO?

I'm calm, i'm just making a point. What would have gone wrong had he not openned fire? You're making an argument based on 'what if'. I'm dealing with the reality of that particular situation. Further, in most states CCW's are required to receive training in marksmanship and the legal restrictions on lethal force....which, i'll again point out, is far more training than the multitude of idiots driving around in 2000lb projectiles, which, have proven to be far deadlier than any number of firearms.


Again, as a police officer, I don't have to worry about having a CCW, so I don't have a personal stake in this, other than I believe that the average citizen should have access to the same right to defend himself as I do.

I've got a badge and a department ID card, both of which allow me to carry my firearm anywhere, on or off duty, in all 50 states. I can even contacted the TSA and carry my on board an airline flight. So, even if my state didn't give out CCW's, it wouldn't effect me personally. What's more, according to federal law, when I retire, as long as I retire in good standing, I maintain the same privilege to carry as I did when I was a working officer.

So, again, it's not my rights i'm concerned with at all. I just believe that I shouldn't be a member of some privileged class, who believes himself above the average citizen.

It hacks me off when I hear other officers (usually the perfumed princes various command staffs, who haven't worked the road in decades, and then only until their political connections set in) who support some cross-eyed gun grabbing scheme or another as if it were crime control....which they don't believe either, but it makes their civilian political bosses happy.

I, however, don't fear the average citizen, armed or not. The man likely to shoot me probably can't even get a driver's license, much less buy a gun or get a CCW...but he's carrying anyway.

 

[Ceicei]

I'm saying that having a civilian open fire in a Wal-Mart is a scary thought because of all that could go wrong. Are you really disagreeing with that? Is everyone who gets a conceealed carry permit as well-trained in firearms and use of force as a LEO?

A CCW holder might not be as well trained as a LEO, but hopefully, may have good training. I would hope that in obtaining a permit, there would be the necessary training and understanding of the State Codes and Law. It depends upon what is required by each State where permits are allowed.

Unfortunately, I have met some people who purchase a gun thinking that all they need to know to pull a trigger is sufficient. I usually encourage these same people to at least go to the range for some training by competent instructors. Better yet, get a permit and the necessary skills to go with it.

- Ceicei