The Religious Right and Environmentalism

[Brother John]

Brother John,

That last post of mine is quite hyperbolic. I don't believe any of the crap I wrote, and I tend not to speak for people of faith, whenever possible. I was pissed off at unsigned negative rep points that seemed to slam my opinion.

Thanks for making it clearer to us that you weren't writing what you actually believe. unsigned neg. rep points are Childish. I'd bet we both agree on that'n.

This scripture, from Genesis, is the source of my post. I know that some believers interpret this passage to mean that the world is mans' to do with which they please.

Actually it seems we both agree on the interpretation of this scripture from genesis! I believe it does say we have dominion over the Earth and all that's in it. But...I believe that scripture, when taken as a whole, points out that one of the things we will be held the most accountable for is HOW we use such freedom and authority. Freewill....one of the best and one of the worst things ever given from God to man!!

And why would your take on the passages concerning the coin be more valid than mine?

Validity? hmm...that's a tough call, not one I'm in sufficient "authority" to give a call on. I will say that mine is probably a bit more in line with the rest of Christ's message as a whole.. Basically because he'd often take any subject that someone brought up to/with him and turn it into a lesson/sermon on man's duty, God's Love or what Heaven would be like. So in my interpretation Christ wasn't giving a lesson on ones responsibilities in the social/civic arena as he was indicating that like the coin belongs to Caesar, symobolized by his mug being stamped on it...
likewise man bears the image of God....
that's all.
Personally, I think that in 'personal' interpretation of scripture...it's CRUCIAL that it fully convince the person doing it. In Public interpretation, I think it's crucial that it line up with the whole of the message and not be contradictory.

WOW....I Know I'm gonna get shot at by some admins.

SO...back to topic...?
qizmoduis said:

More like 90% of this country is Christian, and represent viewpoints that range from rapturist "strip-mine and destroy everything green" millenialists to "don't mow the grass" steward types and everything in between. Every single one of them can support their particular worldview with Bible quotes.

Personally, I'd say take your percentage and the other, and the truth lies somewhere between.
I agree. The so called "Christian Right" is more diverse than people give credit for, and yes...they can fling the scripture frisbee too and fro ad infinitum on a great many issues. Even core doctrines get juggled like jesters balls. That's why I think it's so important for each Christian to remember that though we have a community of believers, we are Each on an individual journey! I made up my own mind about what my responsibilities are to the environment based on scripture, prayer and Research. Each person should do that for themselves. Michael spoke of reconciling ones faith and reason, or some such....and he's right. It's in the act of reconciling two things (or more) that we gain such a force and don't get life off balance.

There are "Green" christians, there are "strip-mine" christians...
thing is, you can't really lump christians in a box and say "Here is what they believe about xyz...", because in the end...you can find just as many of the opposite to be true....
with their own frisbee scriptures.
Christ even addressed such internal disagreements w/in the church, ones that aren't central doctrine, and said:
"...let each man be fully convinced in his own mind.."

Your Brother
John

 

[michaeledward]

On the surface, Michael, I would agree, but I often wonder if some people are just wired different. Where one person finds the truth in reason, others find it in faith. If we can come together on this issue, wouldn't that be a good thing?

What if the premise is reversed from my statement.

Currently, the Karner Blue Butterfly is an endangered species, as tracked by the U.S. government. It currently lives in a few limited habitats, one in Concord, NH on in upstate New York, as well as some places in the upper mid-west

What if an Evangelical Christian believes, via faith, that he is supposed to build a church on the habitat in Concord, NH? He believes he is being led by God to minister to Christians in this location? In the drive to build a church to minister to his flock, he must exterminate one of the two remaining habitats for this species of butterfly.

How should the community resolve a conflict, when one side is based on faith, and one side based on something else (reason, environmentalism, government)?

Faith is insufficient, in my opinion.

Now, that is a odd construction of the hypothetical. But, in my experiences with people of faith, once they believe that God has guided them to a specific course of action, they are not likely to bring other methods of analysis to the subject.

 

[Brother John]

That yarn stretches a little tight doesn't it?

Faith is insufficient, in my opinion.

...wouldn't any 'semi-atheistic agnostic' think so? Thought that was a given bias.

But, in my experiences with people of faith, once they believe that God has guided them to a specific course of action, they are not likely to bring other methods of analysis to the subject.

Much agreed, and it's a shame! God gave us faith, but before that, we've got the capacity to reason. (and we are called to work with Both)
both important gifts.

Your Brother
John

 

[michaeledward]

Brother John,

I am wondering if in your day to day execution of faith, if you come into contact with what I interpret as the 'Religious Right'.

There are many people of faith, any faith, that are reasonable. When I hear the term 'Religious Right', I evoke people who leave every decision in a higher authority's hands.


I proposed to my wife in a hot air balloon. The pilot of that craft was an Evangelical Christian. My wife was not thrilled when Hony Glover started praying to God mid-flight to guide her to a landing location. I would prefer to be guided to a landing location by the training required by the FAA which granted her her pilot's license.

So, no, I do not think my example is extreme.

 

[Brother John]

Brother John,

I am wondering if in your day to day execution of faith, if you come into contact with what I interpret as the 'Religious Right'.

There are many people of faith, any faith, that are reasonable. When I hear the term 'Religious Right', I evoke people who leave every decision in a higher authority's hands.

Man....DO I? wow...
Yup, I run into them all the time.
But in all honesty I meet just as many of them who are very reasonable and their rationale for EVERYTHING is well laid out! I don't always agree with their conclusions..but that's okay. I appreciate the work they put into their approach. It's when they start to insist that MY walk should more closely resemble their own that I start to itch, right eye starts to twitch and I look for the door and a clear path too it.
My own personal beliefs and practices are not mainstream...and sometimes it rubs some the wrong way. Even my pastors, but not all of them. That's their issue.

I tend to like the Christians who aren't PUSHY, but do still hold their own ground by reason & faith.
Trust God, but tie down your camel....
hahaha....

I'd rather ride in a baloon with a 'person of faith' who prays for a good trip and to be led to the best landing spot.....but who also checks her maps and radios in with questions....
Kind of the case of: God is my co-pilot, but my hands are still on the wheel and i'm checking the guages constantly.

Your Brother
John

 

[Brother John]

One example: and this one of a christian martial artist...

I am friends with a guy who is a martial artist (Brown Belt in GoJu Ryu) who was planning on going to a BIG tournament in a few months. I asked him what his plan of attack was for training for the event. He said that he had only one:
PRAY

I said "thats cool, but what are you going to DO....conditioning - practice - sparing....what?"

"I am just going in praying that God be glorified through my victory and that I give him all credit for the victory...so I know HE will lead me to win the tournament."
I smiled, thinking he was honestly kidding around...I said: "No, really...whatcha gonna do? Do you need a sparing partner."
he became upset and said that I needed to work on my faith.

Three months later, my faith was fine.....and turns out he needed to work on his side kicks.

Me? Pray for victory.... but dont expect God to come down and fight for you. TRAIN LIKE MAD!!
When he was originally arguing his point with me he went on to tell how God had made Samson victorious due to his faith:
I reminded him that:
A: God neeeded Samson to do a certain thing, FIGHT & win. Did God need a tin trophy with a small gold colored plastic man??
B: Samson gave his life for his work.

not the same thing....
...sure....Give God the glory and ask for his aid:
but POUND the punching bag daily and get everyone of your friends to spar you Constantly.

Your Brother
John

 

[crushing]

I think I would put the pilot's prayer into the category of the pre-meal prayers and the like.

Of course, just because a pilot prays for guidance, doesn't mean the pilot isn't qualified to land the balloon. I may not necessarily agree with many of their beliefs, but I am not intolerant of them either.

I have Christian friends that are deeply faithful, but I've never seen them disregard analysis. They probably think that God gave them a brain for something. I have heard of the steroetypes that you use as examples, but don't actually know anyone that is like that.

 

[michaeledward]

The only way that the pilot would be able to receive a license to pilot the aircraft, is to demonstrate the required skill to the licensing board, in this case, the FAA. God has nothing to do with it. Invoking a higher authority only served to cause discomfort among her passengers.

I am not intolerant of any person of faith, nor the depth of devotion with which they practice that faith. But, as I said, it is insufficient to guide public policy. (As exampled by Brother John's associate in the tournament).

Assume you are in an aircraft - with two other people. A licensed pilot, and an evangelical christian. The pilot dies in flight. You have years of Microsoft Flight Simulator and combat simulator experience. Your friend has belief that God has a purpose for his life. Who gets the controls?

In all matters of public policy, why can't we draw on experience and knowledge as the primary source of decision making. If it coincides with faith, great. If it doesn't, I believe faith should take the second chair.

 

[Brother John]

I think we'd all agree that a person not qualified to fly a plane/balloon...etc., just plain shouldn't.

Try this though:
Pilot #1: all the needed qualifications to fly your 747, 15 years of experience, but an atheist.
Pilot #2: same as #1 except a devout Jew who prays before, during and after each flight.

Which would you prefer?

I'll take #2 anyday....


Your Brother
John

 

[michaeledward]

I think we'd all agree that a person not qualified to fly a plane/balloon...etc., just plain shouldn't.

Try this though:
Pilot #1: all the needed qualifications to fly your 747, 15 years of experience, but an atheist.
Pilot #2: same as #1 except a devout Jew who prays before, during and after each flight.

Which would you prefer?

No preference. Assuming the 'during' prayers do not interfere with operation of the craft.

 

[crushing]

One example: and this one of a christian martial artist...

This story had me thinking about this morning's 'This I Believe' on NPR. Based on her essay, I have a feeling that she won't be depending on her God to deliver the little gold-like statue.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6352680

 

[Makalakumu]

What if the premise is reversed from my statement.

Currently, the Karner Blue Butterfly is an endangered species, as tracked by the U.S. government. It currently lives in a few limited habitats, one in Concord, NH on in upstate New York, as well as some places in the upper mid-west

What if an Evangelical Christian believes, via faith, that he is supposed to build a church on the habitat in Concord, NH? He believes he is being led by God to minister to Christians in this location? In the drive to build a church to minister to his flock, he must exterminate one of the two remaining habitats for this species of butterfly.

How should the community resolve a conflict, when one side is based on faith, and one side based on something else (reason, environmentalism, government)?

Faith is insufficient, in my opinion.

Now, that is a odd construction of the hypothetical. But, in my experiences with people of faith, once they believe that God has guided them to a specific course of action, they are not likely to bring other methods of analysis to the subject.

You take the good with the bad, I guess. And sometimes, when you want to get the job done, you look for agreement when you can find it. If we start saying that we can't work with certain people on issues we agree about because we disagree on others, then we are going to quickly run out of people to work with.

The bottom line is that I would work with the Christian who supports an environmental agenda. I would oppose those who would kill off a species or two because god told them too.

 

[Lisa]

Second Moderator Warning:

Please keep the conversation on topic.

Lisa Deneka
MartialTalk Super Moderator

 

[heretic888]

I apologize if this is off-topic....

Personally, I'd say take your percentage and the other, and the truth lies somewhere between.

Just as a matter of clarification, most of the polls I have seen on these sorts of things rate "self-professed Christians" (i.e., people that identify themselves as Christians) in the United States as somewhere between 85 and 88 percent.

I did find the "fifty percent" figure rather amusing. It's as if because somebody doesn't vote Republican, they're somehow not Christian. I suspect it may also have something to do with the Religious Right's constant appeal to the fantasy that Christianity is "oppressed" in this country. That fantasy doesn't lend well when you realize self-professed "Christians" make up the overwhelming majority of the populace.

Hell, there are more Christians in America than there are white people! Talk about a majority....

Laterz.

 

[Ray]

I see lots of good posts. I'll add my two cents. I'm religious and conservative. I think making/keeping/restoring the environment is important. It's important for us today and for our progeny to have a healthy world to live on.

There was some discussion on prayer in this thread too. I've heard the saying "pray as if it's all up to God & work as if it is all up to you." That's one of my mottos.