the real meaning of poomsae

[dancingalone]

I think though many people teach kata/patterns etc without also telling people what they are for. If told the purpose of them the tecniques won't be as secret you just have to look and see where and what they are.

Sure. Or they don't teach out of ignorance.

Whether Nagamine or Seikichi Toguchi believe techniques have been obscured or not is one thing but they know there are techniques in kata and what kata is for, many people don't so the belief in 'secret techniques' is false.

That's a rather bizarre statement. I've cited 2 sources, both considered among the foremost experts in Okinawan karate within the last century, who have said in their writings that much of the effective fighting concepts in karate have been deliberately obscured in kata.

If you are speaking of your own personal martial arts, fine, but to generalize it to all karate would be erroneous at best. I can confirm my own teacher does not teach everything to anyone who enrolls at his dojo. He reserves certain material for his most tenured and closest students, including some unobvious physical refinements to 'unlock' kata. I don't understand the need for secrecy because all this stuff builds on each other. By the time you reach the skill level where the refinements make a difference, you'd likely be a trusted student anyway.

To teach kata without teaching the reason for it, (even if they don't train the techniques) and then saying there's secret techniques in martial arts is dishonest.

So who does this exactly out of idle curiosity? I'm afraid I haven't had the bad luck to run into many dishonest people in karate. In my experience, people who study patterns are in 2 camps. They either don't know or don't practice bunkai or they consider bunkai and kata a core focal point of karate instruction. Some of the people in the first group might think they are practicing applications when they are not in the refined sense, but they're certainly not lying deliberately.

 

[Tez3]

Probably didn't make myself clear enough.

I'm not disputing that the sources you quoted have said that the techniques have been obscured, I have read others who say they haven't been, just lost but my point is that all these people know what kata is for whatever they believe Bunkai has been kept secret or not. Many people are told there's secrets but aren't told what Bunkai is or what kata is for. Whether the techniques have been obscured or not wasn't my point, it's that there's many who teach kata/patterns/forms as just an exercise nothing more. There's no explanation for them, no trying to find why you do them or what they were for. Just that it's the thing to do or it helps your balance or makes you disicplined. However there's many who talk about 'secret' techniques in martial arts that only the masters know or you have to go to special classes for, it's this mystical thing that makes you this brilliant fighter or able to defend yourself like Bruce Lee. People won't believe that hard work and training is the key not magic. If you know what kata is for you can work out for yourself or with a good instructor that there are techniques in there.

Holding back techniques until you are able to do them isn't the same as peddling 'secret' techniques. You don't start running marathons without training for example.

I don't know if you get them but above this thread is ads, and as they follow the subject of the thread lo and behold there is one for a place that teaches the 'secret' techniques of martial arts!
http://www.streetwarriorsclub.com/notouch/

I've actually seen this guy doing this and it nearly killed me not laughing out loud. Funnily enough on another occosion when Iain Abernethy ( the man who I think has done more to unlock Bunkai than anyone) was present the techniques were kept believable, strange that.

Techniques may be hidden or obscured or just lost but this thing about 'secret' techniques trusted to only certain students is dishonest whether money is involved or not.

 

[dancingalone]

I'm not disputing that the sources you quoted have said that the techniques have been obscured, I have read others who say they haven't been, just lost but my point is that all these people know what kata is for whatever they believe Bunkai has been kept secret or not.

I can roll with that.

I think there's really no one pat answer to explain the relative dearth of bunkai study. It's a combination of things:

• masters unwilling or unable to teach everything they knew
• a deliberate decision among several senior teachers to stylize their kata and make its meaning unclear without a teacher to help unlock it
• students becoming teachers themselves and unwittingly passing along their own ignorance
• a lack of capable students to master and pass on the same material

Really, I think the last is the biggest factor at this current moment. It takes a lot of hard work and dedication (and yes, talent) before one is ready to learn the more esoteric parts of karate. How can you learn koshi without first mastering hip twist, front and reverse, on all the basic techniques? What good is kyusho unless you have precision and speed first with your strikes? How can you follow along the trapping lessons in say Kururunfa kata without first developing the physical sensitivity through partner kakie drills?

You can regurgitate all the advanced knowledge codified within kata to the masses, but they just won't get it unless they've made the sacrifices themselves to become adept at the art.

Many people are told there's secrets but aren't told what Bunkai is or what kata is for. Whether the techniques have been obscured or not wasn't my point, it's that there's many who teach kata/patterns/forms as just an exercise nothing more. There's no explanation for them, no trying to find why you do them or what they were for. Just that it's the thing to do or it helps your balance or makes you disicplined.

Yeah. Unfortunately, I think is the face of kata for the foreseeable future. Those who want good instruction will need to find it through lucky
happenstance or deliberately search it out as I did.

However there's many who talk about 'secret' techniques in martial arts that only the masters know or you have to go to special classes for, it's this mystical thing that makes you this brilliant fighter or able to defend yourself like Bruce Lee. People won't believe that hard work and training is the key not magic. If you know what kata is for you can work out for yourself or with a good instructor that there are techniques in there.

Exactly. As I said above, none of this stuff is doable anyway unless you've already developed an excellent understanding of the base levels and can demonstrate it physically. Guess what else? As we grow old (or unfit) some of the ability to display the 'good' stuff goes away too, despite the usual cliche of the ancient martial arts master.

Holding back techniques until you are able to do them isn't the same as peddling 'secret' techniques. You don't start running marathons without training for example.

True!

I don't know if you get them but above this thread is ads, and as they follow the subject of the thread lo and behold there is one for a place that teaches the 'secret' techniques of martial arts!
http://www.streetwarriorsclub.com/notouch/

I've actually seen this guy doing this and it nearly killed me not laughing out loud. Funnily enough on another occosion when Iain Abernethy ( the man who I think has done more to unlock Bunkai than anyone) was present the techniques were kept believable, strange that.

Sounds pretty questionable at first glance. Anyone credible will admit it takes years and years of hard work to become expert. It would be nice to be able to buy a quick course and be able to perform "no touch knockouts" though. I've always wanted to be a Star Wars jedi!

Techniques may be hidden or obscured or just lost but this thing about 'secret' techniques trusted to only certain students is dishonest whether money is involved or not.

It's just a different time and different people. Perhaps in more violent, older cultures, there might be very good reason to keep your top fighting techniques to yourself and your close ones.

 

[Tez3]

Keeping fighting secrets if they work for you is a good idea but it's not a good idea to then say you have secrets lol!

I teach a children's traditional TSD class before the adult's MMA class and many of the adults ask me what the point of the kata is as they are very sceptical of it seeing only the 'dance'. I usually demonstrate on them which usually puts the point across, sadly it doesn't make them want to learn kata though but at least I've got through to some of them.

I would say though that there's some some very simple Bunkai techniques in kata that should be taught to students as they learn their first kata/pattern. As they learn the higher katas they can learn the more difficult Bunkai hand in hand with learning the techniques. Even if they just learn that it's blocking a kick or a punch, it's learning that the kata means something and to me that's the most important thing.