The Purpose Of The Bujinkan

[MJS]

Now, I'll preface this by saying that I don't train in the Bujinkan or any of the other Kans, so this is simply curiosity on my part. I'm not posting this question with the intent to bash, but instead, attempt to get a better understanding of the statement I'm about to post.

Now, from time to time, I surf various threads, both here and on other forums. One thing that I've noticed, more than a few times, especially when people are talking about the Bujinkan, is that they say that the art is not necessarily about self defense. As an example, on another forum, there was a discussion, which as usual, turned into a slight bash session on the Bujinkan, but the statement was made:

"The fact that there are things within the system that can be useful for self defense does not mean that the purpose of the system is self defense."

Now, obviously everyone has different goals when they train. Some train for fitness, some for self defense, some for the sake of a hobby. But in this case, upon first look, it seems to me anyway, that while the whole art may not be like that, a good part of it is, not necessarily for selfdefense. So that would almost imply that everyone training in it, is not there for SD, but for another purpose.

In defense of this, others will comment that people who train in the art, have used it, with success. Given Dale Seagos line of work, I'm more than sure he's had it work for him, and I'm sure there're others on here, who may have used it for SD, in the course of their line of work, ie: LEO, Security, Bouncer, etc.

So....enough rambling from me. What exactly is meant by that statement? Does this also hold true for the Genbukan and Jinenkan as well?

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Well MJS when you look at the Bujinkan and the other Kan's known as the Genbukan and Jinekan. There is indeed more to the training than just self defense. These are traditional Japanese systems passed down over time and have components that are geared toward not just physical growth but also mental and spiritual. These other aspects do not just receive lip service but come about through good rigorous Budo Taijutsu training.

Recently on watching the Genbukan movie: The Gift of Traditional Martial Arts it was very apparent that this is true!

Now can Budo Taijutsu training be effective? Absolutely, I have no doubt about it. Have people used it to protect themselves and or their loved ones. Yes, I know several people personally that have used it.

You are correct in one thing in that different people train for different reasons. Some are there strictly for self defense, others for enlightenment through rigorous training and still others for work or a myriad of other reasons. So people in the end train for their own reasons. Teacher's can just show a way!

 

[MJS]

Well MJS when you look at the Bujinkan and the other Kan's known as the Genbukan and Jinekan. There is indeed more to the training than just self defense. These are traditional Japanese systems passed down over time and have components that are geared toward not just physical growth but also mental and spiritual. These other aspects do not just receive lip service but come about through good rigorous Budo Taijutsu training.

Recently on watching the Genbukan movie: The Gift of Traditional Martial Arts it was very apparent that this is true!

Now can Budo Taijutsu training be effective? Absolutely, I have no doubt about it. Have people used it to protect themselves and or their loved ones. Yes, I know several people personally that have used it.

You are correct in one thing in that different people train for different reasons. Some are there strictly for self defense, others for enlightenment through rigorous training and still others for work or a myriad of other reasons. So people in the end train for their own reasons. Teacher's can just show a way!

Thanks for the reply Brian. Well thought out as always.

After reading a few other posts in that discussion I mentioned, I did see a few make the comment that there is often alot of study put into the various kata, techniques, etc., so yes, now it makes much more sense.

As for the Genbukan movie...yes, just watching that short clip it does tell just what you said. I've yet to order it, but I'm sure it does go into much more detail.

 

[Cryozombie]

I'm far from an expert and should shut up and let people more knowlageable than me speak BUT...

(hehe I have a big but)

I wonder how "self defense" is being defined.

I have seen things, even amongst the fighting techniques we use that I would be hard pressed to call "self defense techniques"

Some Sword Kata that clearly demonstrate that you don't care if you are killed performing these techniques, you opponent will die also... old battlefield stuff that was not for preservation of your life.

Some techniques designed to ambush an armed man as he walks by you on the street, with the intention of stealing his weapon.

and some techniques that to me, appear to be designed to take a sentry out as opposed to protect yourself in a 1 on 1 fight.

*I* wouldn't classify those as self defense techniques, and that is before we talk about the spiritual refinement, emotional manipulation, and other techniques that have nothing to do with physical combat.

 

[Bruno@MT]

To me (Genbukan newbie) there is more to it than self defense. The repeating of kata and kihon, again and again, combined with the physical exercise clears my mind, and I always leave the mat rejuvenated, even if I am dog tired in a physical way.

It is also way for me to maintain my body, and to master control over it, on top of the self defense aspect.

And as I posted earlier today in the general MA forum: the ability to roll instinctively once saved me from serious injury or death when a car hit my bike and I got launched head first onto the traffic lane.

But most importantly, I enjoy it. I understand that for other people, the defense aspect is much more important. But the actual reason I do it is because I enjoy it. If I didn't enjoy it, the defense aspect would not be enough to keep doing it.

 

[MJS]

I'm far from an expert and should shut up and let people more knowlageable than me speak BUT...

(hehe I have a big but)

No need for you to shut up. You've been training in this art for some time, I'd imagine, so your opinion is just as valid. If I wanted to hear from high ranks only, I probably would have said that initially, however, I didn't so please, by all means, feel free to give input.

I wonder how "self defense" is being defined.

I have seen things, even amongst the fighting techniques we use that I would be hard pressed to call "self defense techniques"

Some Sword Kata that clearly demonstrate that you don't care if you are killed performing these techniques, you opponent will die also... old battlefield stuff that was not for preservation of your life.

Some techniques designed to ambush an armed man as he walks by you on the street, with the intention of stealing his weapon.

and some techniques that to me, appear to be designed to take a sentry out as opposed to protect yourself in a 1 on 1 fight.

*I* wouldn't classify those as self defense techniques, and that is before we talk about the spiritual refinement, emotional manipulation, and other techniques that have nothing to do with physical combat.

IMHO, I would define self defense as anything you do, to defend yourself from a physical confrontation. It can start with how one would avoid the confrontation, including but not limited to verbally defusing it, all the way to physically defending yourself.

Judging from some posts I've read from certain people, I get the impression that they feel that nothing or very little in the Bujinkan is effective. I don't think thats the case at all. As I've said a few other times, one of my Arnis teachers subleased space from a Bujinkan Dojo, run by Greg Kowalski. I've seen first hand and was even fortunate enough to be on the receiving end of a few things by him. What I saw, from a non Bujinkan student perspective, seemed pretty damn effective to me.

 

[Bruno@MT]

From a defense pov, ninpo is no different than ju-jutsu, jiu-jitsu(westernized ju-jutsu), karate, or any other TMA.
If you practise it with dedication and focus, then with time and experience it will be a good self defense style.

But if you just go through the motions, 'collecting' katas and grades, then the self defense aspect will whither.

 

[MJS]

From a defense pov, ninpo is no different than ju-jutsu, jiu-jitsu(westernized ju-jutsu), karate, or any other TMA.
If you practise it with dedication and focus, then with time and experience it will be a good self defense style.

But if you just go through the motions, 'collecting' katas and grades, then the self defense aspect will whither.

Good points!

 

[WesternCiv]

Thats a thought provoking question and I'm sure the answer will vary with each unique individual.

In general I tend to agree with the statement that there is effective self defense taught in the Kan's (I'm a KJJR/Genbukan guy but I assume the Buj and Jinekan are similiar) but that the system is a true art - not just a collection of self defense techniques and theories.

But what constitutes an art? Is it the pursuit of perfection? The search for a more complete understanding? The ability/skill/talent to adapt and intrepret and contribute our own perspective? In Boxing, MMA and the "competitive martial arts" the search for perfection can be easily judged. For the "traditional martial arts" like the X-kan's the search for perfection is directed inwardly and includes a spiritual dimension, an outlook on life, improved self esteem and discipline etc etc along with an increased skill to defend one's self.

The self defense techniques are effective but as with anything much depends on the individual's own capability, level of fitness, committment to training etc. In the dojo I belong to over half of the students/teachers are law enforcement officers and soldiers so there are numerous examples of how our training can be effectively used. On the other hand - I've been lucky enough to never have been in a real life self defense situation so the application of what I've learned more than likely will not be as effective. I'm also still a newbie having only trained in the KJJR/Genbukan for a couple of years. I joined to lose weight and learn self defense. Admittedly, I was a bit frustrated over the self defense portion of the curriculum early on. The emphasis on things like rolls, kasume dori, do gaeshi, karame dori, omote gyaku etc although very effective in getting me in better shape - I just didn't see how this was going to help me much if I was attacked on the street. The longer I've been training, the more kuden I've been able to absorb, I am starting to see how these fundamentals can be applied and appreciate the beauty of the very small details of each techinque and how important it is to continue to train and learn and try to master each techinque - new and old.

And maybe thats the best way to describe a true work of art - it's something that you can look at, or listen to over and over and over again - and each time you see some new facet of it or gain a new appreciation of it's beauty and depth.

 

[Shizen Shigoku]

I'm far from an expert and should shut up and let people more knowlageable than me speak BUT...

(hehe I have a big but)
....

A big bold but..

There's just so much to Bujinkan / other ninpo training that you can get out of just about anything you want. If you want the purpose to be self-defense, you can get that.

I can't say it's the only purpose to the Bujinkan, but it appears to be the major one.

 

[EWBell]

Ninpo is self defense of the mind, body, and spirit. (Sounds like a promo phrase) Obviously most people think about physical self defense when using the term, but ninpo really includes the other forms as well. This is common in Japanese martial arts from what I can tell. You'll get out of the art what you put into it, in my opinion.

I was lucky when I first started studying, in that I understood there was purpose to our ukemi and taisabaki drills. Those are the foundations of "self-defense" in that they teach you how to fall and move...which is paramount to avoiding injury and attacks. A lot of people can get frustrated because they aren't learning the "if this attack comes, counter with this" type of thing. I never have looked at it like that, which could be attributed to me being 36 when I started and not 16.