The Power of Hung Gar in Self Defense

[HG1]

Flying Crane, HG1, I'm only expressing my opinion. We don't have to agree, and I'm certainly not interested in proving myself right because its a highly subjective situation. I will respectfully withdraw from this conversation because I'm nolonger actively involved with CMA other than some occaisional personal training.

Best to you in your continued studies of Chinese martial arts!

I think it's best to keep the conversation far away from the politics of who is or isn't the torch bearer of Hung Ga. Outside of this I have no issue with what you have stated & respect the differences of opinion we share about the style.

 

[Flying Crane]

I think it's best to keep the conversation far away from the politics of who is or isn't the torch bearer of Hung Ga.

well, I hate to think there are any forbidden or absolutely taboo topics. Martial arts politics can get pretty nasty, i've certainly found myself in the middle of some ugly discussions around kenpo politics. But I like to think that even these topics should be open for discussion, as long as people recognize that there are bound to be differing opinions, and everyone maintains respect and remembers their manners. If need be, agree to disagree. But the discussion shouldn't be off limits.

 

[RedRonin38]

I'm not trying to beat down your opinion. I'm just pointing out a different perspective. I really think this discussion has remained very civil and I don't see any reason for you to back out of it, if you have more to say. Don't take anything I've said as a personal attack, it certainly was not meant to be such.

Ok very well then, I appreciate the civility. Please for give my impulsive withdraw...my inner forumite was sensing an impending war. I'm not interested in online battles, and as such I will steer away from a thread that focuses on my personal experiences except when absolutley becessary to express my opinion.

2 things:

First, there is an interesting quote in your sig line.

"Having an 'iron' whatever will do you little good if you don't know how to properly use it." -HG1

This is a great point. Mine is to ask how do you know unless you test that? I say competition, and plenty of it at the highest level possible. How else? Street fights? No thank you!
HG-1, how do you know? (Not an attack, its a genuine inquiry...).

Second, documentation!
Its the most neglected thing in martial arts today. Why? Well heck, would you trust a person in today's world to operate on your heart or brain without knowing through easily researchable documentation that they actually are a doctor, can perform the procedures, and what their track record is? I wouldn't.
Same goes for any martial arts instructor. Sure, there's some great teachers out there with no researchable supporting documentation, but given the amount of fraud, myth, and madness that can be found in the world of martial arts, I'm not willing to take my chances anymore. Too many students of CMA's are willing to take thier instruction based on belief rather than fact, and when it comes to self defense or fighting ability that's a very dangerous approach.

Flying Crane, you mentioned a relationship built over time for teachers to reveal thier ability. I'd not waste my time with anyone who operates this way because again, its taking a huge leap of faith that thier actually is ability there. My first kung fu instructor in (started in Hung Ga in 1990) never sparred with anyone, and only demonstrated technique by directing the action with verbal cues. There were however, several stories about things he'd done in the past, but none were ever substantiated.
By contrast, my current Judo instructor engages in randori with our class every week with few exceptions, and demonstrates under pressure his ability against many differnet skill levels and body types. He has a lengthy, researchable competition record, and has been asked for assistance with international level Judo teams.
See the difference? Ability that is not expressed or withheld, and in addition cannot be researched through some kind of documentation, is highly questionable in my opinion.

 

[Flying Crane]

2 things:

First, there is an interesting quote in your sig line.


This is a great point. Mine is to ask how do you know unless you test that? I say competition, and plenty of it at the highest level possible. How else? Street fights? No thank you!

ah yes, that little quote was just something I found rather funny, so I grabbed ahold of it. But I acknowledge your point.

Second, documentation!
Its the most neglected thing in martial arts today. Why? Well heck, would you trust a person in today's world to operate on your heart or brain without knowing through easily researchable documentation that they actually are a doctor, can perform the procedures, and what their track record is? I wouldn't.
Same goes for any martial arts instructor. Sure, there's some great teachers out there with no researchable supporting documentation, but given the amount of fraud, myth, and madness that can be found in the world of martial arts, I'm not willing to take my chances anymore. Too many students of CMA's are willing to take thier instruction based on belief rather than fact, and when it comes to self defense or fighting ability that's a very dangerous approach.

again, I see your point.

the problem I think is that so much in life is just never documented, and we can't expect it to be. Competitions are probably the only form of pugilism that is actually documented outside of police reports. Fighting on the street, be it brawling or legitimate self defense against an attacker, would just never be documented unless a police report is filed.

The lack of documentation doesn't mean it didn't happen. But then again, you do have to go on a certain level of faith, and hopefully you are a good enough judge of character to not be fooled by a charlatan. But it can happen to anyone.

I just can't help feeling that if you go thru life demanding documentation for everything, then you are bound to travel down a road of repeated disappointment and frustration.

The martial arts are not like medicine. Medicine is highly regulated by the government, and martial arts are not (thank the gods on both counts). This does leave the door open to charlatans in the martial arts. caveat emptor. But it doesn't mean that everyone IS a charlatan, documentation or not.

Flying Crane, you mentioned a relationship built over time for teachers to reveal thier ability. I'd not waste my time with anyone who operates this way because again, its taking a huge leap of faith that thier actually is ability there.

well, if the instructor has integrity, he ought to be teaching quality material from the moment he accepts you as his student. But his personal experiences with violence may be something he doesn't like to talk much about (something from his "irresponsible youth" perhaps), and he just may not relay those stories to those who haven't really gained his inner trust.

Everyone is different on this point. I know people who have no trouble talking about their experiences. Others are very quiet about it.

My first kung fu instructor in (started in Hung Ga in 1990) never sparred with anyone, and only demonstrated technique by directing the action with verbal cues. There were however, several stories about things he'd done in the past, but none were ever substantiated.

well, i guess I cannot comment about your specific experience. I probably don't know your instructor and I can't vouche for him or not. He may have been a fraud, or he may not have been. But that's one example and even if he was a fraud, that doesnt' mean he represents the norm.

By contrast, my current Judo instructor engages in randori with our class every week with few exceptions, and demonstrates under pressure his ability against many differnet skill levels and body types. He has a lengthy, researchable competition record, and has been asked for assistance with international level Judo teams.
See the difference? Ability that is not expressed or withheld, and in addition cannot be researched through some kind of documentation, is highly questionable in my opinion.

ah, well judo is an art that has embraced competition. Those who engage in judo are very likely to engage in competition on some level.

Not all arts/people have embraced this, tho. That doesn't automatically make them less capable.

I will give you this point, however: I believe it is true that most of us are not practicing our kung fu in the same way that it was once done. The world has largely changed, we live in a much safer society, and most of us have little or no need to actually use our skills to defend our lives. Because of this, we have lost a certain level of useage and skill in what we do, because we are just not pushed to use it. Few of us get attacked on our way home from work on a regular basis, and when we do it is often possible and preferable to get assistance from local law enforcement.

But I don't believe that means Chinese martial arts of any style have become useless, nor that competition is the only way develop fighting ability.

 

[HG1]

First, there is an interesting quote in your sig line. This is a great point. Mine is to ask how do you know unless you test that? I say competition, and plenty of it at the highest level possible. How else? Street fights? No thank you!
HG-1, how do you know? (Not an attack, its a genuine inquiry...).

At my school conditioning hands,bridge or shins is common training. When sparring against it only good technique nullifies their effect.