The point of testing students

[Gerry Seymour]

but that would just be stage fright, the justification for having a test seems to that the,student may fail, for,a reason that has nothing to do with their ma,ability, that's just odd!

For some of us, we're hoping to provide tools that help beyond just MA ability. If that is part of the goal, tests that go beyond MA ability aren't that odd.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It's worth noting that although the stress of being under scrutiny isn't the same as the stress of being under attack, they do utilize most of the same systems (both psychologically and physiologically). Mastering oneself under one of them likely provides some benefit under the other, though I know of no research to support (or contradict) that.

 

[jobo]

It's worth noting that although the stress of being under scrutiny isn't the same as the stress of being under attack, they do utilize most of the same systems (both psychologically and physiologically). Mastering oneself under one of them likely provides some benefit under the other, though I know of no research to support (or contradict) that.

hmm, i don't like birds near me, though i cope quite,well with doing a talk to a,couple of hundred people, decreasing my stress at public speaking has not helped one bit with my bird stress, i have great doubts that if someone,attacks me with an axe, its going to be much help there either,

 

[Mark Lynn]

I haven't gotten to the point where I throw curve balls during a test yet, but likely will as students progress. My own instructor had a policy for black belt tests that something had to be corrected on the spot. He'd pick something that was arguably wrong, and make you correct it before you could go to the next technique. The point was to put you under some stress, and to see if you could make a correction on the spot (something he feels is important for that rank/level).

I've thought about the idea of testing in front of a group. We never did it. Most tests were just the testee, the instructor (maybe an instructor-in-training, too), and a partner for the parts that required a partner. The scenario tests included all the students of a specified rank, but the doors were closed to everyone else - both students and observers. I like the idea of putting at least some of that in front of a group, though that only works when a group is available. Do you often have non-student observers for adult tests?

Well curve balls might be something as simple as having a beginner student doing a rear leg front kick moving forward to doing a front kick with the front leg going then moving backwards. For a beginning student this could be a challenge, not hard but still something they might not have done a lot if ever in the Yellow belt class. So what if it takes them a few tries, do they give up or buckle down and try harder? I might have the students face different directions (and/or) doing different kata at the same time so that they can't rely on watching others. On my black belt exam my instructor called me out on the floor to face another instructor who pulled out a pair of nunchaku and I was told to take them away from him. They still laugh about how big my eyes got.

Generally my tests were at my instructor's home dojo and in attendance were those testing, those helping out, the instructors and maybe a friend or family member or two. At my shodan test in his home dojo; my parents, my brother, and sister, were the only outsiders present. First time any of them ever saw what I did by practicing karate. Although I had some tests in regular schools, and at seminars, gyms, etc. etc. my main tests in the karate/TKD were at the home dojo. Which was a two car garage which was converted to his dojo. We had 7 black belt board members, 2-3 brown belts to spar with, plus a couple of 1st dans who were my dojo mates (going for 2nd I think) all in a 20 X20 ft garage in TX heat in August with no AC nor exit but the side door for ventilation.

In regards to my adult tests I try and have other instructors come and sit on the exam boards; but my adults is my Presas Arnis class, my younger students do the TKD. At our last Presas Arnis test we had more board members than students testing. We had instructors from as far away as Houston (5 hrs), Stephenville (1 1/2 hrs), Dallas (1 hr), Grand Prairie (1 hr) all to support our school. Plus we had family and friends of the students testing.

 

[Danny T]

hmm, i don't like birds near me, though i cope quite,well with doing a talk to a,couple of hundred people, decreasing my stress at public speaking has not helped one bit with my bird stress, i have great doubts that if someone,attacks me with an axe, its going to be much help there either,

Yep.
The affects of stress is the same.
Being prepared for one cause of stress is not going to prepare you for a different cause.

 

[jobo]

my attitude to this topic is coloured by my glass half empty attitude, i cant see the point taking any test where the result is a get a grade/ belt that tells me and the world I'm not very good, if it was a test for something worth while like a black belt then i might. jump through some hoops to get it, BUT for a green belt I'm not getting phyced up about it and I'm not performing tricks to an audience, they can either give it to me on merit or i won't bother .

 

[Gerry Seymour]

hmm, i don't like birds near me, though i cope quite,well with doing a talk to a,couple of hundred people, decreasing my stress at public speaking has not helped one bit with my bird stress, i have great doubts that if someone,attacks me with an axe, its going to be much help there either,

It's unlikely to be a large effect, in any case. As I said, I haven't seen any research on whether there's a link, and if so, under what circumstances.

 

[PhotonGuy]

but that would just be stage fright, the justification for having a test seems to that the,student may fail, for,a reason that has nothing to do with their ma,ability, that's just odd!

Dealing with stage fright can be a requirement for advancement. Much of the martial arts is mental and that involves dealing with emotional and psychological challenges.

 

[jobo]

Dealing with stage fright can be a requirement for advancement. Much of the martial arts is mental and that involves dealing with emotional and psychological challenges.

its only a requirement for advancement at ma, if you keep doing tests, get rid of the tests and its no disadvantage at
all

 

[Gerry Seymour]

its only a requirement for advancement at ma, if you keep doing tests, get rid of the tests and its no disadvantage at
all

Or for performing at competitions, or delivering demonstrations, or for teaching.

 

[jobo]

Or for performing at competitions, or delivering demonstrations, or for teaching.

non of those are actually an advancement of ma, ability.
you could argue they may eventually lead to an advancement, but just doing them it not in its,self an advancement of,ability

 

[Flying Crane]

But there is a methodology I'm certain that the instructor/s utilize to know the training & learning is proper and the student is progressing even though there is no rank or formalized testing. There is a standard that a student must reach or attain before giving them more information or for the lack of better terms higher level information, yes?

Of course. Sifu decides.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

non of those are actually an advancement of ma, ability.
you could argue they may eventually lead to an advancement, but just doing them it not in its,self an advancement of,ability

Those are all parts of some people's MA journey. As such, they are part of MA.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Of course. Sifu decides.

I think Danny's point is that Sifu's decision is not that much different from a BJJ instructor deciding it's time to award a blue belt, or my decision that it's time to test a student on the first set, so I can move them to the second.

 

[drop bear]

my attitude to this topic is coloured by my glass half empty attitude, i cant see the point taking any test where the result is a get a grade/ belt that tells me and the world I'm not very good, if it was a test for something worth while like a black belt then i might. jump through some hoops to get it, BUT for a green belt I'm not getting phyced up about it and I'm not performing tricks to an audience, they can either give it to me on merit or i won't bother .

And this is why nobody will remember your name.

One thing I have noticed with the guys who are really successful is there is no not bothering.

Our guys do a fight camp before a fight which hopefully puts them in the best position to succeed in their test.

If belts were treated the same way I think it would produce better martial artists.

 

[jobo]

Those are all parts of some people's MA journey. As such, they are part of MA.

an ma journey perhaps, but not an advancement of ma ability, which is what you said they were

 

[JR 137]

Agreed, except for the ranks. As a student instructor, I was expected to be able to teach any of the techniques, so I could have students of any rank, under the supervision of the chief instructor of the school. As an associate instructor (I'm not sure which you would equate to "assistant instructor"), I had to run classes without backup (so, no chief instructor present). There's an extra stress that first time you are in front of a class with no backup. It gets easier pretty quickly for some folks, more slowly for others. I think I had it easier than most, because of some experience outside MA.

The most stressful thing for me was when I was an assistant instructor (I was a brown belt at the time). My sensei had me assisting him in class, then had me teach a few on my own (he was always in the office or lurking and giving me feedback afterwards). I got pretty confident, then one day my sensei decided to line up as a student in my class. Talk about not wanting to mess up.

If I genuinely didn't know the answer to a student's question, I'd always say "I'll ask sensei and let you know." Well, a student asked a question early on in class that I couldn't answer (he didn't do it on purpose). I looked over at my sensei, and he just grinned and shrugged his shoulders. I told the student "I don't know, but I'll ask sensei when he's available and let you know." According to my sensei I did great and I didn't appear to be nervous.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

an ma journey perhaps, but not an advancement of ma ability, which is what you said they were

No, actually, I didn't. Go back and look at my posts.

 

[jobo]

And this is why nobody will remember your name.

One thing I have noticed with the guys who are really successful is there is no not bothering.

I'm not , not bothering to lean and improve my ma, i am not bothering to perform like a circus seal in order to get a grade that means nothing at all to me.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The most stressful thing for me was when I was an assistant instructor (I was a brown belt at the time). My sensei had me assisting him in class, then had me teach a few on my own (he was always in the office or lurking and giving me feedback afterwards). I got pretty confident, then one day my sensei decided to line up as a student in my class. Talk about not wanting to mess up.

If I genuinely didn't know the answer to a student's question, I'd always say "I'll ask sensei and let you know." Well, a student asked a question early on in class that I couldn't answer (he didn't do it on purpose). I looked over at my sensei, and he just grinned and shrugged his shoulders. I told the student "I don't know, but I'll ask sensei when he's available and let you know." According to my sensei I did great and I didn't appear to be nervous.

That sounds nerve-wracking. I'm doing that the first chance I get!

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm not , not bothering to lean and improve my ma, i am not bothering to perform like a circus seal in order to get a grade that means nothing at all to me.

The grade is just a marker along the way. The testing shouldn't be a big deal if you're making progress - just more of the stuff you do in classes, but being checked for specific problems you might need to work on (very much like what your instructor does in classes). If you don't like tests, move to a style that doesn't use them. You'll still be checked for specific problems you might need to work on, and evaluated from time to time to see if you're ready for some sort of next level of information and training.

 

[jobo]

No, actually, I didn't. Go back and look at my posts.

you added your ridder on the the end of my sentence on advancement, of ma ability