the new style of "documentaries"

[jarrod]

i watch bill maher's "religulous" recently. although i didn't agree with a lot of it, i did enjoy it as maher is usually at least funny (as opposed to michael moore's over-dramatic sentimentalism). in any case it should be pretty clear to the critical observer that it was creatively edited to support maher's opinions.

but it did get me thinking about the potential trend that moore has started. when i watch a documentary, i typically want information. the genre of film should, imo, be a document of a topic that generally leaves the viewer to draw their own conclusions, or should provide the viewer with footage that he cannot see personally. what we have with moore et al is a bunch of op-ed films characterized as documentary. now i don't have a problem with film being used for op-ed, i have a problem with renting a movie with the expection of at least a modicum of objectivity only to find subjective editing & presentation.

so what do you think? should op-ed be a designated subgenre of documentary? should non-fiction films even be used for editorializing? or am i the only one who cares?

jf

 

[Big Don]

Until Moore and Gore, documentaries were supposed to be non-fiction. Since then, not so much. Maher's Religoulous was nothing more than anti-religion bigotry with added "comedy". The, OP-ED style, as you aptly call it, does not fit the definition of documentary.
Dictionary.com Definition:
1. Also, doc⋅u⋅men⋅tal  /ˌdɒk

yəˈmɛn

tl/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [dok-yuh-men-tl] . pertaining to, consisting of, or derived from documents: a documentary history of France. 2. Movies, Television. based on or re-creating an actual event, era, life story, etc., that purports to be factually accurate and contains no fictional elements: a documentary life of Gandhi.

 

[Sukerkin]

It is part and parcel of the decline of information in favour of entertainment in the media.

We have a series called Horizon that the BBC broadcasts which is very much an educational vehicle. In the 80's, the subjects were sometimes quite hardcore science, covering such things as particle physics, climatology, genetics et al and the programmes, altho' clearly not pitched at 'experts', still worked on the assumption that if a point had been made earlier you didn't need to have it restated half a dozen times just in case you'd forgotten.

The series still exists and the subjects can still be interesting but it essentially consists of ten minutes of edu-tainment, with one or two simple 'facts' repeated four or five times and presented with such artistic flair that the message is overwhelmed by the medium. For example, I watched one a month or two ago about the progress made on nuclear fusion. Essentially, I could have just watched the first minute or two to hear the preamble and turned off because they didn't go into any more detail than that; the rest of the programme was essentially "Gee whizz! Look! Big lasers!" .

EDIT: I did not make clear in the above that the programmes are 45 minutes to an hour long. My apologies for any confusion .

 

[Ken Morgan]

Actually Bill Maher never once said religulous was a documentary, he classifies it as a Comedy.

Yes there is a certain leaning towards it, (Which I happen to agree with), but much of it is brought about from the people interviewed and Bill’s opposing opinions about what they’ve said. There is no way it should be classified as a documentary as we have traditionally thought of them.

 

[Ramirez]

I found Religulous a good reply to Ben Stein's anti-science, anti-rational Expelled.

 

[crushing]

Actually Bill Maher never once said religulous was a documentary, he classifies it as a Comedy.

Have you seen it? Is it every bit as good as Cannibal Women in the Avocado Jungle of Death?

 

[jarrod]

Actually Bill Maher never once said religulous was a documentary, he classifies it as a Comedy.

Yes there is a certain leaning towards it, (Which I happen to agree with), but much of it is brought about from the people interviewed and Bill’s opposing opinions about what they’ve said. There is no way it should be classified as a documentary as we have traditionally thought of them.

well that's good. the place i picked it up had it listed under documentaries. of course i knew what to expect when i got it, but it still got me thinking a bit.

jf

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I blame "This is Spinal Tap."

Once it became clear that the booger-eatin' morons could not tell the difference between a 'documentary' and a 'mockumentary', everything started heading downhill.

People who make documentaries were at first repulsed and offended, but later began to realize the monetary potential of filming whatever the hell they wanted in B&W with a shaky camera, and labeling it a 'documentary'.

 

[Ramirez]

well that's good. the place i picked it up had it listed under documentaries. of course i knew what to expect when i got it, but it still got me thinking a bit.

jf

actually you raise a good point, if things like this shouldn't be listed under documentary, then what? I guess they are really a video op-ed/essay.

 

[Tez3]

It is part and parcel of the decline of information in favour of entertainment in the media.

We have a series called Horizon that the BBC broadcasts which is very much an educational vehicle. In the 80's, the subjects were sometimes quite hardcore science, covering such things as particle physics, climatology, genetics et al and the programmes, altho' clearly not pitched at 'experts', still worked on the assumption that if a point had been made earlier you didn't need to have it restated half a dozen times just in case you'd forgotten.

The series still exists and the subjects can still be interesting but it essentially consists of ten minutes of edu-tainment, with one or two simple 'facts' repeated four or five times and presented with such artistic flair that the message is overwhelmed by the medium. For example, I watched one a month or two ago about the progress made on nuclear fusion. Essentially, I could have just watched the first minute or two to hear the preamble and turned off because they didn't go into any more detail than that; the rest of the programme was essentially "Gee whizz! Look! Big lasers!" .

I've just about given up trying to watch documentaries now because I get so fed up of being talked down to. I want it taken for granted that if I'm interested enough to watch I can either understand the 'big words' or I know how to use a dictionary! I started to watch a programme with Tony Robinson who I hate with a passion but thought I'd persevere because the subject was interesting. It was about how the Earth was formed etc but in the first half hour they'd shown the same graphic six times, the Earth being covered by ice. the commentary given by Robinson was so patronising and repetitive I gave up completely. I liked the Coast series though and anything Nicholas Crane does. Bill Oddie annoys me too, a lot!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/coast/

The BBC series Blue Planet and Planet Earth are totally amazing, I'd recommend anyone to actually go out and buy these if you can.they are heirlooms for your children!
A lot of it is on U Tube as well

 

[jarrod]

you know, there was a 10 minute bbc doco on the hubblecast that i caught that seemed like it was geared for kids aged 11 or so. i just assumed it was aimed at kids, but it sounds like it's an intentional dumbing down. i really enjoy a lot of other bbc programming though.

jf

 

[Ken Morgan]

Have you seen it? Is it every bit as good as Cannibal Women in the Avocado Jungle of Death?

Yeah, I've seen it a couple of times.

Cannibal Women in the Avocado Jungle of Death? I didn't even know taht was a real movie till i looked it up!!

 

[Ken Morgan]

well that's good. the place i picked it up had it listed under documentaries. of course i knew what to expect when i got it, but it still got me thinking a bit.

jf

There's a youtube video of Bill doing an interview about him classifying it as comedy somewhere. Sorry i don't have the link but i watched it about a month ago.

 

[crushing]

Cannibal Women in the Avocado Jungle of Death? I didn't even know taht was a real movie till i looked it up!!

Oh yeah, maybe you knew it as Piranha Women in the Avocado Jungle of Death? Many people consider Bill Maher's roll in this movie to be his crowning achievement. Without his defining role as "Jim" we may not have had the pleasure of whatever stuff came later.

 

[zDom]

Actually Bill Maher never once said religulous was a documentary, he classifies it as a Comedy.

Here is a transcript of Bill Maher's remarks during the Oscars (bolds are mine):

=--=-=-=

Bill Maher: Thank you very much. Everyone's crying and now I have to go on. (laughter) But the film you just watched was created by Albert Maysles, who with his brother David (applause) brought us classics like GIMME SHELTER and GREY GARDENS. Thank you Albert and David Maysles. (applause)

Now, as a producer and star of a documentary of my own this year (laughter, applause), the one about religion that didn't get nominated. I know, it's a touchy subject, but some day we all do have confront the notion that our silly gods cost the world too greatly. But there I go ruining the ending. (nervous laughter)

But I'm very grateful I live in a country where I could even put this film out. And I appreciate more than ever the documentarians and the impact their films can have. For the documentary filmmakers truly are our windows to the world. They give us a candid look beyond our own circumstances. They give us the truth and make us aware of the greater humanity around us.

I wish you would join me in applauding and thanking all the documentarians (applause). We should go see their movies more, starting with mine.

-=-=-=-=

Kind of tacky, if you ask me, to pitch your movie and whine about not getting nominated when you are supposed to be talking about those who are nominees/winners.

Meh. He's a scoffer and a mocker. Yes, there are a lot of folk out there who use and abuse belief in higher powers for the own purposes. And from the excerpts I've seen, he's done a great job of capturing some of those on film.

But he'd better hope that all the religions are wrong because if just ONE of them is right or close to right, I'm sure they are preheating a special spot just for Billy Boy.

 

[Ken Morgan]

At About 2:40 he’s says, “It’s a comedy, not really a documentary.” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHH2JItePlc

I’m not here to debate the message in the movie, (again I agree with him), it’s about the modern version of documentaries becoming basically longer reality TV shows.

Documentaries, the news, the newspapers all spin information in the direction that the producer/whoever determines it should be spun.

No one can disagree with his quote, “I'm very grateful I live in a country where I could even put this film out”. Freedom of speech is the cornerstone of democracy, be it here in Canada, south of the 49th in the States, Europe and a few other places. Sadly there are many countries where you can’t say anything.

I believe that if your message is solid enough, if it’s foundation is strong enough (Capitalism vs. Socialism, Democracy vs. Communism, Creationism vs. Evolution, Montreal Canadiens vs. the Boston Bruins), or whatever, then it will stand, (or fall), on it’s own merits. Religion should be debated, we should question everything, and at the end of the day we may disagree, but I will always defend your right to speak your piece

 

[zDom]

At About 2:40 he’s says, “It’s a comedy, not really a documentary.” ... I’m not here to debate the message in the movie, (again I agree with him), it’s about the modern version of documentaries becoming basically longer reality TV shows.

Nor am I here to debate it or whether it is indeed a comedy or not. But I did recall him making a comment that contradicted your statement that Maher "never once said religulous was a documentary" and posted accordingly. He HAS said it on at least one occassion

No one can disagree with his quote, “I'm very grateful I live in a country where I could even put this film out”. Freedom of speech is the cornerstone of democracy, be it here in Canada, south of the 49th in the States, Europe and a few other places. Sadly there are many countries where you can’t say anything.

I, too, am grateful of these things — so here at least we agree.

 

[zDom]

so what do you think? should op-ed be a designated subgenre of documentary? should non-fiction films even be used for editorializing? or am i the only one who cares?

jf

I think objectivity is an endangered ideal.

 

[CoryKS]

Ken Burns is a documentarian. Michael Moore is a propagandist. Bill Maher used to be a comedian until he lost the ability to tolerate dissenting opinions.

In related news, my kid wants to see the new Disney documentary "Earth". The trailer looks good, but I have the suspicion that it's going to be a steaming pile of global warming propaganda. Oh well, I suppose that's better than throwing lemmings off a cliff.

 

[Big Don]

Oh well, I suppose that's better than throwing lemmings off a cliff.

You can't beat that for sheer fun!