the many One True Martial Arts

[girlbug2]

What is it about people?

Why does practicing a certain martial art cause some people to become certain that their MA is the One True MA, that all others are just pretenders, wannabes, or obsolete?

Is this just a grown up version of "My dad can beat up your dad"?

A friend of mine just spent an hour trying to convince me that BJJ was the OTMA. The proof: UFC #1. The jiu jitsu fighter won, and that proves that jiu jitsu is superior!

Some days I just wanna tear my hair out....

And no, I'm not picking on BJJ. I've heard similarly passionate arguments from people in other MAs. Everyone seems convinced that THEIR art is the Best.

How should I talk to these people?

 

[ralphmcpherson]

With great frustration you can talk to these people. I have had similar experiences. The UFC is a sport , it is not a fight in a dark alley. There are rules , no weapons , no multiple attackers , no surprise attacks etc. I am happy to discuss the pros and cons of different martial arts with a mate or two while having a beer but when people start using 'events' such as the UFC to establish what the best MA is I can only zone out. I think most people who have done martial arts for an extended period of time have realised there is no best MA , the topic makes for a fun conversation but there is no answer to the question. All in all , I go out of my way not to discuss this topic with people who dont realise this.

 

[ATC]

No one in the UFC stays undefeated. Champion BJJ guys have been beaten by standup guys of any art. Just as BJJ, Judo, Wrestlers, and so on have lost and won their fair share also.

It is never the art but the man. It just happened to be the BJJ man at the time you simple minded friend made his observation.

So I guess I will watch the first football game of the year this year, and the team that wins is the best. No need to play any more games.

The man not the art. Repeat it a few times then pass it on.

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi,

As to why people try to put their art above all others, a lot of that comes from a great degree of self investment. After all, if you have convinced yourself that the art you train in is for keeping you safe, then obviously you have chosen it because it is better than all the others.... after all, if it wasn't, you would have just spent years (in cases) investing in the wrong thing, and that can be a bit of a shock to an ego.

In regard to UFC #1, well, one of the big things to remember is that it was pretty much put on by the Gracies, with the opponents chosen deliberately (a retired kickboxer, a retired Sumo, a savate guy at the end of his career etc, Ken Shamrock was the best contender to Royce), the environment being very grappler friendly (a soft floor not allowing the strikers the speed they are used to), and Royce pretty much outclassing everyone. The name was chosen essentially so Royce could be called the "Ultimate" fighter, and Grace Jiu-Jitsu could be refered to as the "Ultimate" martial art. Let's not forget that the first Gracie Jiu-Jitsu school had recently opened in California, and this was a way to get the Gracie name out there. Hell, there was a cheque presentation to Helio by the entire Gracie clan in the middle of the damn thing! So your friend basically said that BJJ is the best because they won their own designed tournament? Okay.

I've attended a workshop with Royce, and he's incredibly good at what he does, there is no doubt, and I firmly believe that on the ground, there is no-one with better technology than the BJJ guys. That's the benefit of specialisation. The downside, of course, is that there are large gaps in what they can do. So long as they can control the distance and how the fight goes down (as Royce did in the early UFCs), they are great. But the ultimate? I don't think any single art is. Then again, I think every art has the potential to be.

 

[terryl965]

It is never the art but it is always the fighter. You see peoplle dictate what art is better at the time of engagement.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

People in general wish to differentiate themselves and be part of some thing unique. That is why you always see this crop up. Some one trains in a style/system, they associate with it and then claim that it is special or unique, etc., etc. This is a very, very natural human trait! It is however as you put it frustrating when you come across someone that cannot see or realize that it is not one system over another but one individual who utilized their attributes, skills on just that particular day to win. Who knows on another day it may go completely the other way!

 

[jks9199]

People trumpet their art for various reasons. If they've spent time searching and picked what you've decided is the best -- they're likely to project that decision and belief. If it's a new student -- they're in throes of a new love affair; just like someone newly infatuated can't see the flaws in the object of their affection, they don't recognize that other arts can be good. (And some folks go through this every time they start a new art...) Sometimes, they've bought into the hype and drunk the kool-aid and are spouting it in turn...

In other cases, there's something else going on. Insecurity. They've invested time and effort, and don't want to face the serious possibility that there are other arts and other styles that are equally good.

I've been fortunate; from day one I was taught that it's not the art, it's the student. In my art, we have a motto: Just as no one nation holds a monopoly on the sun, no one art, creed, or belief holds a monopoly on the truth.

 

[girlbug2]

Hi,

As to why people try to put their art above all others, a lot of that comes from a great degree of self investment. After all, if you have convinced yourself that the art you train in is for keeping you safe, then obviously you have chosen it because it is better than all the others.... after all, if it wasn't, you would have just spent years (in cases) investing in the wrong thing, and that can be a bit of a shock to an ego.

In regard to UFC #1, well, one of the big things to remember is that it was pretty much put on by the Gracies, with the opponents chosen deliberately (a retired kickboxer, a retired Sumo, a savate guy at the end of his career etc, Ken Shamrock was the best contender to Royce), the environment being very grappler friendly (a soft floor not allowing the strikers the speed they are used to), and Royce pretty much outclassing everyone. The name was chosen essentially so Royce could be called the "Ultimate" fighter, and Grace Jiu-Jitsu could be refered to as the "Ultimate" martial art. Let's not forget that the first Gracie Jiu-Jitsu school had recently opened in California, and this was a way to get the Gracie name out there. Hell, there was a cheque presentation to Helio by the entire Gracie clan in the middle of the damn thing! So your friend basically said that BJJ is the best because they won their own designed tournament? Okay.

I've attended a workshop with Royce, and he's incredibly good at what he does, there is no doubt, and I firmly believe that on the ground, there is no-one with better technology than the BJJ guys. That's the benefit of specialisation. The downside, of course, is that there are large gaps in what they can do. So long as they can control the distance and how the fight goes down (as Royce did in the early UFCs), they are great. But the ultimate? I don't think any single art is. Then again, I think every art has the potential to be.

Thanks Chris, you put it in a nutshell. And I had forgotten about the cheque presentation thing--very telling!

This whole "X art is superior" argument bears a family resemblance to the "Only X Art taught by X lineage senseis is the Real Art" argument. There's no way to debunk that one I think because it's all opinion-based.

 

[girlbug2]

. If it's a new student -- they're in throes of a new love affair; just like someone newly infatuated can't see the flaws in the object of their affection, they don't recognize that other arts can be good. (And some folks go through this every time they start a new art...) .

That's the place my friend is in right now IMO. His new art is the best, and the old one is all B.S...just like people talking about their ex (whom they once adored).

 

[Chris Parker]

Well, thank you, however I feel we are in disagreement on the last statement there...

When it comes to "only X-lineage from X-sensei is the true art", well, that actually holds water for me. For example, in Japanese arts (koryu), the art itself is held by only one person, the head of the system. If you are training in that particular system, then by definition you must be connected to that head, if not, then even if you are training the same techniques, concepts, knowledge, information, etc, then you are by definition not training in that system. Think of it like an organisation, if you are not a part of the organisation structure, then you are not part of it, even if you you wear the same uniform.

However, stating that one is superior to another is a completely different issue. When it comes to things like this, I seem to remember a thread asking why we would say someone else should train in our arts, and my answer was something along the lines of "I have no reason for anyone else to train in my system. I have many reasons for me, but not for others. They need to find their own".

 

[girlbug2]

The "x lineage from X sensei" comes up in regards to remarks made along the line of (for instance) people that claim that only EPAK taught by so and so is the real EPAK. When in fact, there is no way to prove who was Ed Parker's "True Successor", or even if there is only one True Successor. Why should there be only one? Didn't EP have multiple black belts? He gave them their belts, he must have thought they deserved them and had the proper skills to pass on.

It's like having a preference for a certain type of burger. Now I like In N Out burgers the best, but if somebody else has one from Jack In The Box, I'm not going to say that they don't have a real hamburger because it's not from In N Out. They are both burgers.

 

[Chris Parker]

In a traditional system, just because they got black belts in no way makes them Ed Parkers successors. Just his black belts. It would really depend on how Ed Parker decided to structure his organisation. Ideally (again in a traditional system) Ed would have declared his chosen successor, and those who continued under that successor would be the ones studying EPAK, even if the successor changed everything. Other black belts (who got their belts under Ed himself) who decide to go out on their own (not under the chosen successor), even if they stay closer to the original methods taught by Ed Parker, would not be a part of EPAK (as an organisation). They would obviously still be treaching American Kenpo, but not EPAK.

Does that make sense? It really is like your burger analogy. It can't be argued that the Jack in the Box burger is not a burger, but it can be argued that it is not an In N Out burger, even if the guys currently working at Jack in the Box worked at In N Out first.

 

[girlbug2]

Okay that does make sense Chris.

Now the problem is in deciding who was EP's chosen successor! Something which has yet to be resolved, no?

 

[Chris Parker]

That, my friend, I leave with you and your bretheren... there's enough lineage issues in the Japanese systems to keep me busy for a few decades yet!

 

[MJS]

What is it about people?

Why does practicing a certain martial art cause some people to become certain that their MA is the One True MA, that all others are just pretenders, wannabes, or obsolete?

Is this just a grown up version of "My dad can beat up your dad"?

A friend of mine just spent an hour trying to convince me that BJJ was the OTMA. The proof: UFC #1. The jiu jitsu fighter won, and that proves that jiu jitsu is superior!

Some days I just wanna tear my hair out....

And no, I'm not picking on BJJ. I've heard similarly passionate arguments from people in other MAs. Everyone seems convinced that THEIR art is the Best.

How should I talk to these people?

Personally, I take what alot of people say, with a grain of salt. Even in my own art, Kenpo, I see soooo many people who they have 'the real Kenpo' whatever that may be. People will bash others because their teacher didn't spend as much time with Parker, blah, blah, blah.

I've talked with other Kenpo people, both in person and online, and have expressed the importance of crosstraining, only to be told that its not them, but ME that didn't learn Kenpo the right way. And what way would that be??

And of course you have the BJJ crowd. Now, before anyone gets offended, I will say that like any art, its a SELECT group, the proverbial bad apples in the group that ruin the bunch, that tend to be the biggest fanboys. There are some that think that BJJ is the end all, be all, and there're those that understand that they dont have all the answers, and that they too have a weakness. Of course, the usual comeback is, "Well, if you can't fight one person in the ring then how could you fight 2 or more? Notice the bold part? I'm not saying that any other art, outside of the ring, will have greater success, but considering the differences, which have been talked about endlessly, I think you know where I'm going.

I've been training for 24yrs. I do dislike those that are dishonest, fluff up their resume', etc, but I also understand that I am not the martial arts police. I know how those people are, and I know how I am. All that matters to me, in the end, is what I do. I dont claim, by any means, to have the final say on anything, nor do I claim to be an expert in every aspect of the arts. I simply give my .02. People are free to take it or not. I enjoy the arts that I do. If I didn't, I wouldn't be training in them for as long as I have been. If someone doesn't like what I do, if they think it sucks, is useless, then thats fine, whatever. I'll keep on training, and hopefully they'll do the same.

 

[Drac]

If someone doesn't like what I do, if they think it sucks, is useless, then thats fine, whatever. I'll keep on training, and hopefully they'll do the same.

That about sums it up the best IMHO..

 

[MJS]

Hi,

As to why people try to put their art above all others, a lot of that comes from a great degree of self investment. After all, if you have convinced yourself that the art you train in is for keeping you safe, then obviously you have chosen it because it is better than all the others.... after all, if it wasn't, you would have just spent years (in cases) investing in the wrong thing, and that can be a bit of a shock to an ego.

Agreed. However, theres that fine line between what they want to think, and the reality. That reality being, that no art is 100%. Sure, I've invested alot of time and money, training in Arnis. A Filipino martial art, thats primarily weapon based. I have said many times, that the FMAs are superior, when it comes to weapon use and defense, and that people who train against weapons, should look at the FMAs to see another way of dealing with them. However, just because I say this, doesn't mean that I couldn't go to the ATM today, get mugged by someone, and cut up like a piece of steak. I understand that the MAs dont make me Superman. Sadly, many of the 'nutriders' for lack of better words, don't see that. Eh...to each his own I suppose.

In regard to UFC #1, well, one of the big things to remember is that it was pretty much put on by the Gracies, with the opponents chosen deliberately (a retired kickboxer, a retired Sumo, a savate guy at the end of his career etc, Ken Shamrock was the best contender to Royce), the environment being very grappler friendly (a soft floor not allowing the strikers the speed they are used to), and Royce pretty much outclassing everyone. The name was chosen essentially so Royce could be called the "Ultimate" fighter, and Grace Jiu-Jitsu could be refered to as the "Ultimate" martial art. Let's not forget that the first Gracie Jiu-Jitsu school had recently opened in California, and this was a way to get the Gracie name out there. Hell, there was a cheque presentation to Helio by the entire Gracie clan in the middle of the damn thing! So your friend basically said that BJJ is the best because they won their own designed tournament? Okay.

QFT!!!

I've attended a workshop with Royce, and he's incredibly good at what he does, there is no doubt, and I firmly believe that on the ground, there is no-one with better technology than the BJJ guys. That's the benefit of specialisation. The downside, of course, is that there are large gaps in what they can do. So long as they can control the distance and how the fight goes down (as Royce did in the early UFCs), they are great. But the ultimate? I don't think any single art is. Then again, I think every art has the potential to be.

I went to a seminar with him as well and I echo your thoughts. You're also correct with the gaps. As an example, I'll point to the last time Royce stepped into the UFC, against Matt Hughes, I believe. Needless to say, Royce was dominated. The main gap, that I noticed, was that while the fighters of today have moved forward, it seems the Gracies have not. Again, this isn't a slam on them, just pointing out an observation.

 

[Blade96]

My senseis believe that. I just dont argue with em when they say our art's the best They hate people who argue with em anyways. They want things the way they want it and so help people who argue or 'shake tradition'

 

[Maiden_Ante]

Is this just a grown up version of "My dad can beat up your dad"?

Yes. A lot of "students" in different MA's want their MA to be the best, because they're training it. They don't want to feel they're somehow wasting their time learning how to punch by training boxing if someone convinces them karate does it better (completely fictional example).

And the trainers, senseis etc. aren't very helpful most of the time - thinking in the same way and even more sure about the superior nature of their MA.

 

[Bruno@MT]

How should I talk to these people?

Not.