The Lone Ninja
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Kajowaraku
Green Belt
He's probably koga-ryu Chris 
.
*Vanishes in puff of smoke with lavish use of metaphors*
Seriously. If a cake looks like a car, i'm really not going to try to drive it home. Are there some similarities? Sure, if you don't take heed of the fact it would be very sloppy t(h)aijutsu. Also, what defines taijutsu is a rather rigid set of very specific concepts, motions and positions as transfered over the ages. something that looks like it is still quite able to resemble it closely while still completely and utterly missing the true underlying concept of the technique. Quite often, the truth of taijutsu lies hidden deep under the surface. Sometimes subtle, sometimes deviously cunning, but often hidden in countless repetitions and countless hours of keiko. So, even when a technique looks like oni kudaki, it is not neccessarily oni kudaki. It's not just the angle, it's where you go from there: a simple break or near utter devestation (yes, yes, i'm a bit lyrical about it, i just happen to love onikudaki) of the bones, joints, tendons and ligaments of the arm. Good taijutsu is often subtle in application only, the effects of proper execution can hardly be considered subtle.
ah well.
a few cents for the discussion. I don't care much about movies anyway
. *Vanishes in puff of smoke with lavish use of metaphors*
Seriously. If a cake looks like a car, i'm really not going to try to drive it home. Are there some similarities? Sure, if you don't take heed of the fact it would be very sloppy t(h)aijutsu. Also, what defines taijutsu is a rather rigid set of very specific concepts, motions and positions as transfered over the ages. something that looks like it is still quite able to resemble it closely while still completely and utterly missing the true underlying concept of the technique. Quite often, the truth of taijutsu lies hidden deep under the surface. Sometimes subtle, sometimes deviously cunning, but often hidden in countless repetitions and countless hours of keiko. So, even when a technique looks like oni kudaki, it is not neccessarily oni kudaki. It's not just the angle, it's where you go from there: a simple break or near utter devestation (yes, yes, i'm a bit lyrical about it, i just happen to love onikudaki) of the bones, joints, tendons and ligaments of the arm. Good taijutsu is often subtle in application only, the effects of proper execution can hardly be considered subtle.
ah well.
a few cents for the discussion. I don't care much about movies anyway
Last edited:
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
A couple of things I'd like to go through here:
No, they really couldn't. Taijutsu can only come from Taijutsu sources. We'll cover that in a bit.
That is a very generalised approach to Kosshijutsu, and really isn't that accurate. If you want to keep things real simple, though, "Kosshi" is made up of two characters, "Kotsu", meaning bone, and "Shi", meaning fingers. The idea is that you can use the smaller bones in your fingers (and toes) to attack a stronger enemy, but it also entails concepts such as understanding the small aspects (fingers) of the balance and power of the enemy (and yourself, the "bones" of the conflict) in order to succeed and survive.
In terms of Koppojutsu, if we are dealing with Koto Ryu as a template for an example of it, then it is far more striking than grappling, although there is some grappling within Koto as well. Then the other Koppojutsu systems, such as Gikan Ryu, Gyokushin Ryu, and Kumogakure Ryu have a different expression of what they classify as "Koppojutsu", from what has been seen of them.
I'm going to make a guess here, though. From the indications in your profile and one or two prior posts, I am assuming you are one of my students? If I am right about who you are, you have only really experienced the beginning of Gyokko Ryu so far, we will be going through the entire Koto Ryu from January next year, so you will have a much greater understanding of the similarities and differences then. In the meantime, feel free to ask me any questions you may have. Oh, and while you're here, you may want to visit the Meet and Greet section to let people here know something about yourself.
Again, these are rather general descriptions. They were popularised by Stephen Hayes when he first started writing about the art, and used the terms as general distinctions, although they aren't exactly that cut and dried. For example, Kukishinden Ryu uses the term "Dakentaijutsu" for it's unarmed syllabus, and there is a lot of grappling (throws and limb controls, mainly) in the system. The term Jutaijutsu is used by one of the forms of Shinden Fudo Ryu (the other uses the term Dakentaijutsu, and again is heavy on grappling over striking), which includes a healthy mix of both striking and grappling, as does Takagi Yoshin Ryu, which again uses the term Jutaijutsu. These days, such simple distinctions are not really that important to me. I tend to more focus on "Koto Ryu movement versus Gyokko Ryu movement", and just allow each system to dictate what it wants to do.
Without it coming from a Japanese source art refered to, or classified as Jutaijutsu, then no you can't. What you can see is grappling maneouvres, most dominantly limb controls with some throws. But that does not make it Jutaijutsu.
No, Taijutsu looks like Taijutsu. As Kajowaraku said, it is defined by it's own set of rules and structures. For that reason, you won't find head-high roundhouse kicks in Taijutsu, or spinning crescent kicks, axekicks, or anything of the like. It is not a loose term for any style of fighting, it is a specific term for specific methods.
Yes, it absolutely does. The very word itself is Japanese, implying Japanese concepts, Japanese cultural considerations, Japanese heritage, Japanese approaches to training, Japanese structure, and Japanese approaches to combat, which lend it certain physical aspects that seperate it out from Chinese arts, Korean arts, Filipino arts, and so on. For it to be Taijutsu it absolutely has to be Japanese.
Not to give him credence, but the words "Shuko" and "Tekagi" are really just different pronunciations of the same characters. The first character means "hand", and can be pronounced either "Shu", or "Te", and the second one means "hook", and can be prounced either "Ko", or "Kagi".
No, they really couldn't. Taijutsu can only come from Taijutsu sources. We'll cover that in a bit.
That is a very generalised approach to Kosshijutsu, and really isn't that accurate. If you want to keep things real simple, though, "Kosshi" is made up of two characters, "Kotsu", meaning bone, and "Shi", meaning fingers. The idea is that you can use the smaller bones in your fingers (and toes) to attack a stronger enemy, but it also entails concepts such as understanding the small aspects (fingers) of the balance and power of the enemy (and yourself, the "bones" of the conflict) in order to succeed and survive.
In terms of Koppojutsu, if we are dealing with Koto Ryu as a template for an example of it, then it is far more striking than grappling, although there is some grappling within Koto as well. Then the other Koppojutsu systems, such as Gikan Ryu, Gyokushin Ryu, and Kumogakure Ryu have a different expression of what they classify as "Koppojutsu", from what has been seen of them.
I'm going to make a guess here, though. From the indications in your profile and one or two prior posts, I am assuming you are one of my students? If I am right about who you are, you have only really experienced the beginning of Gyokko Ryu so far, we will be going through the entire Koto Ryu from January next year, so you will have a much greater understanding of the similarities and differences then. In the meantime, feel free to ask me any questions you may have. Oh, and while you're here, you may want to visit the Meet and Greet section to let people here know something about yourself.
Again, these are rather general descriptions. They were popularised by Stephen Hayes when he first started writing about the art, and used the terms as general distinctions, although they aren't exactly that cut and dried. For example, Kukishinden Ryu uses the term "Dakentaijutsu" for it's unarmed syllabus, and there is a lot of grappling (throws and limb controls, mainly) in the system. The term Jutaijutsu is used by one of the forms of Shinden Fudo Ryu (the other uses the term Dakentaijutsu, and again is heavy on grappling over striking), which includes a healthy mix of both striking and grappling, as does Takagi Yoshin Ryu, which again uses the term Jutaijutsu. These days, such simple distinctions are not really that important to me. I tend to more focus on "Koto Ryu movement versus Gyokko Ryu movement", and just allow each system to dictate what it wants to do.
Without it coming from a Japanese source art refered to, or classified as Jutaijutsu, then no you can't. What you can see is grappling maneouvres, most dominantly limb controls with some throws. But that does not make it Jutaijutsu.
No, Taijutsu looks like Taijutsu. As Kajowaraku said, it is defined by it's own set of rules and structures. For that reason, you won't find head-high roundhouse kicks in Taijutsu, or spinning crescent kicks, axekicks, or anything of the like. It is not a loose term for any style of fighting, it is a specific term for specific methods.
Yes, it absolutely does. The very word itself is Japanese, implying Japanese concepts, Japanese cultural considerations, Japanese heritage, Japanese approaches to training, Japanese structure, and Japanese approaches to combat, which lend it certain physical aspects that seperate it out from Chinese arts, Korean arts, Filipino arts, and so on. For it to be Taijutsu it absolutely has to be Japanese.
Not to give him credence, but the words "Shuko" and "Tekagi" are really just different pronunciations of the same characters. The first character means "hand", and can be pronounced either "Shu", or "Te", and the second one means "hook", and can be prounced either "Ko", or "Kagi".
OP
ElfTengu
Blue Belt
- Thread Starter
- #24
Yes, I know, but it was confusing when one first got a copy of 'History and Tradition. I believe 'Hand Key' was another translation but I don't know if this is accurate.
Strangely, I felt similarly when I got Soke's 'Way of the Ninja' book and saw that what most of us have been calling 'ashiko' were called 'sokko' but I don't know if this is again a simple alternate way of pronouncing the kanji or if ashiko is actually wrong.
p.s. I think this also goes for neko te and a variety of other things.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Nup, again different pronunciations of the same character. "Soku", as in Soku Yaku, means "foot", and the same character is also pronounced "Ashi", as in Ashi Dori. There's a kata in Kukishinden Ryu which is named Ka Soku, or Shika Ashi, both meaning "the Deer's Foot", just pronounced differently.
DuskB4Dawn
Green Belt
thankyou sensei parker for explaning that.
now I have a better understand of what is classified as taijutsu
and the meanings of koppojutsu and Kosshijutsu.
sounds like it varies a great deal between different ryu.
Im still learning all the basics so I dont know to much about ninjutsu. but Im starting to get the concepts. my idea of ninjutsu has certainly changed from when I first started learning.
basicly I had to unlearn a ton of stuff from what I saw in movie and what real ninjutsu really is. still I would say I know alot more than most people on the subject.
or maybe I really am from koga ryu lol
I will do the right thing and introduce myself in the Meet and Greet.
now I have a better understand of what is classified as taijutsu
and the meanings of koppojutsu and Kosshijutsu.
sounds like it varies a great deal between different ryu.
Im still learning all the basics so I dont know to much about ninjutsu. but Im starting to get the concepts. my idea of ninjutsu has certainly changed from when I first started learning.
basicly I had to unlearn a ton of stuff from what I saw in movie and what real ninjutsu really is. still I would say I know alot more than most people on the subject.
or maybe I really am from koga ryu lol
I will do the right thing and introduce myself in the Meet and Greet.
Indagator
Blue Belt
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I think it was released in the US under the title "The Protector" but your best bet would be to find a copy (or download one) of the original version titled "Tom Yum Goong" as the US and UK releases have had bits taken out.
Good film though.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Kamui. I looked it up on Netflix and it wasn't yet available. Just curious. I'll check amazon. Thanks!
DuskB4Dawn
Green Belt
I brought Kamui. and all the ong baks from the asian market for about 12 dollers Australian each. Ive seen all these movies at jbhifi in the foreign dvd section for 3 times as much. If your fron US why dont you try amazon or you could try eastern eye website.
DuskB4Dawn
Green Belt
I have studies a little bit of Gyoku Ryu and supposedly it specializes in techniques that involve Kosshijutsu. I have seen some techniques use the thumb strike (Shitojutsu) but not alot. mostly it is more about countering and balance taking and take downs. there is a few Shitojutsu hand stikes in the Sanshin no gata.
I will start learning Koto Ryu next year that specialise in koppojutsu and focus more on striking and is shorter and straight to the point movements.
it is said both schools complement each other. it is interesting that my school teaches Gyoku Ryu and then Koto Ryu. probley Gyoku Ryu first since many say it is the foundation of ninjutsu.
both these Ryu like to stay nice and close which feels unatural for me. I have a natural tendancy to keep distance and dart back and forwards with linier movements. closing in fast and than moving back fast. I once asked what ryu would suit me and was recommend kukishin ryu than koto ryu and I forgot what the other one was.
I will start learning Koto Ryu next year that specialise in koppojutsu and focus more on striking and is shorter and straight to the point movements.
it is said both schools complement each other. it is interesting that my school teaches Gyoku Ryu and then Koto Ryu. probley Gyoku Ryu first since many say it is the foundation of ninjutsu.
both these Ryu like to stay nice and close which feels unatural for me. I have a natural tendancy to keep distance and dart back and forwards with linier movements. closing in fast and than moving back fast. I once asked what ryu would suit me and was recommend kukishin ryu than koto ryu and I forgot what the other one was.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Buying from overseas is hit and miss. Sometimes, they're fine, but you're just as likely to get a high quality, blu ray as you are an SVCD burned by a guy with an eyepatch and a parrot on his shoulder.
DuskB4Dawn
Green Belt
yeah you never know with bootlegs sometimes the quilty is perfect and sometimes its some dude that is holding a camera in the cinima and you can see heads bopping around during the movie. good thing is they are so cheap it doesn't matter. I have found some rare jems of old martial art movies this way.
I remember a long time ago when I lived in Vietnam you buy the movie pirated before they even came out on cinima.
my copy of Kamui has good picture quility but the translation is so bad I cant understand a thing about the movie story. Im gonna buy the real dvd just so I can watch with the proper subtitles.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
I'd prefer not to buy pirated anything. But that's just me. One byproduct of the internet is a very cavalier attitude toward theft. I know lots of good people who would never steal something from a store speak casually of stealing music or movies off of a usenet newsgroup or P2P.
And the chances of getting something that ISN'T pirated from an Asian source are slim to nil.
And the chances of getting something that ISN'T pirated from an Asian source are slim to nil.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Hmm, a few things here.
Shitojutsu is not the use of a Shito ken, it is the earlier name for the unarmed tradition of Gyokko Ryu (changed to Gyokko Ryu Kosshijutsu by the 12th Soke, Sogyokkan Ritsushi, after the 10th Soke, Sakagami Taro Kunishige, founder of Koto Ryu, reformed the Ryu as Gyokko Ryu Shitojutsu from Gyokko Ryu Ninjutsu....). This is in the historical notes you got, by the way. You haven't done any Shitojutsu, as it isn't taught anymore, so you know.
Gyokko Ryu is about taking balance, yes. However, that is not the defining factor of Gyokko Ryu, the way it does that is what makes it a unique system. And that involves a particular approach to angling, footwork, moving the opponent in various directions (often changing instantaneously), attacking various targets, and so on.
Yes, we will be studying Koto Ryu for the first half of next year, however I wouldn't say that it "specialises in koppojutsu", as it doesn't. It teaches koppojutsu, and only koppojutsu. You'll see more of that from January.
The reason is simply because that is what I chose to do, so you know. That said, Koto Ryu was founded by the 10th Soke of Gyokko Ryu (Sakagami Taro Kunishige, as listed above), and there are stories of Gyokko Ryu practitioners training their techniques against Koto Ryu's attacking kata (the Chuden and Okuden Gata), and the two schools have been taught together for most of their existance. They are often considered "sister" schools. Add to that Gyokko Ryu being considered one of the foundations of the arts of the Bujinkan and related systems and organistations.
Part of training is to get the student to expand their personalities, so by experiencing things that feel less "natural" to you, you are gaining experiences that you would not normally have gained. If all you did was what you were good at, or felt comfortable with, you wouldn't grow as a person or practitioner, would you? Oh, and Togakure Ryu features a lot of leaping in and out, so when we do that (after Koto Ryu), you'll probably enjoy that as well. Kukishinden follows that....
Shitojutsu is not the use of a Shito ken, it is the earlier name for the unarmed tradition of Gyokko Ryu (changed to Gyokko Ryu Kosshijutsu by the 12th Soke, Sogyokkan Ritsushi, after the 10th Soke, Sakagami Taro Kunishige, founder of Koto Ryu, reformed the Ryu as Gyokko Ryu Shitojutsu from Gyokko Ryu Ninjutsu....). This is in the historical notes you got, by the way. You haven't done any Shitojutsu, as it isn't taught anymore, so you know.
Gyokko Ryu is about taking balance, yes. However, that is not the defining factor of Gyokko Ryu, the way it does that is what makes it a unique system. And that involves a particular approach to angling, footwork, moving the opponent in various directions (often changing instantaneously), attacking various targets, and so on.
Yes, we will be studying Koto Ryu for the first half of next year, however I wouldn't say that it "specialises in koppojutsu", as it doesn't. It teaches koppojutsu, and only koppojutsu. You'll see more of that from January.
The reason is simply because that is what I chose to do, so you know. That said, Koto Ryu was founded by the 10th Soke of Gyokko Ryu (Sakagami Taro Kunishige, as listed above), and there are stories of Gyokko Ryu practitioners training their techniques against Koto Ryu's attacking kata (the Chuden and Okuden Gata), and the two schools have been taught together for most of their existance. They are often considered "sister" schools. Add to that Gyokko Ryu being considered one of the foundations of the arts of the Bujinkan and related systems and organistations.
Part of training is to get the student to expand their personalities, so by experiencing things that feel less "natural" to you, you are gaining experiences that you would not normally have gained. If all you did was what you were good at, or felt comfortable with, you wouldn't grow as a person or practitioner, would you? Oh, and Togakure Ryu features a lot of leaping in and out, so when we do that (after Koto Ryu), you'll probably enjoy that as well. Kukishinden follows that....
DuskB4Dawn
Green Belt
thankyou Sensai Parker.
sounds like I have alot to look forward to next year.
I totally agree on the statement of expanding your personality.
you have mentioned in class about embracing new ways and
getting out of our comfort zones.
sounds like I have alot to look forward to next year.
I totally agree on the statement of expanding your personality.
you have mentioned in class about embracing new ways and
getting out of our comfort zones.
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I don't want to sidetrack this thread, While I agree that I wouldn't BUY anything pirtaed (because that does tend to be wrong) but I have argued the Piracy issue on numerous occasions with people who are totally anti-piracy and the best answer to the counterpoints I make is that "Well, um, thats just the way the law is so its illegal" but they cannot argue specifically why it's wrong or how it's theft to my counterpoint. I'd be happy to dialog with you on this if you'd like, out of the thread of course so we don't hijack it.
For not wanting to hijack the thread either, I wouldn't mind being included in this discussion of pirating.
I have a counterpoint to "Well, um, that's just the way the law is so its illegal", but again, without wanting to hijack the film (and for need of more information as to your points), perhaps it would be best discussed elsewhere.
OP
ElfTengu
Blue Belt
- Thread Starter
- #39
I wouldn't get too hung up on the differences between ryuha at this stage, but let it all wash over you as 'generic' Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, which as a fighting system is one art, not nine.
To analogise, if you have 5 spanners in one hand, 4 in the other, and are suddenly given a few seconds (if you are lucky) to undo a nut of unkwown dimensions, you will struggle to select the correct spanner in time, and even if you do select the correct spanner you will also struggle to use it whilst keeping hold of the others. But if you have an adjustable spanner you will be able to use it more than adequately for almost any nut. Appreciate the specific spanners for their purity and later on you can train with them as much as you do with your generic adjustable spanner at present, but for now just make sure you are okay with a monkey wrench.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
The only issue with that is that I'm not teaching him Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu....
The breakup of the class at present includes Classical and Modern Unarmed Combat. The Classical is being taken one Ryu at a time, looking at only that Ryu. At the moment, it's Gyokko Ryu, with the others following. The Modern section is more the generic methods turned to fit the situation you find yourself in, but I teach the individual Ryu, not for self defence (as I don't think they should be thought of as being such) but as technically correct as possible. Hopefully after a few years DuskB4Dawn (and the other students) will be able to differentiate between the movements, methods, tactics, expressions, and technical makeup of each of the different Ryuha. Of course, at this point, he only has some experience in Gyokko Ryu, so such distinctions are a little way off for him (he will need the experience in the others first, at a minimum).
The breakup of the class at present includes Classical and Modern Unarmed Combat. The Classical is being taken one Ryu at a time, looking at only that Ryu. At the moment, it's Gyokko Ryu, with the others following. The Modern section is more the generic methods turned to fit the situation you find yourself in, but I teach the individual Ryu, not for self defence (as I don't think they should be thought of as being such) but as technically correct as possible. Hopefully after a few years DuskB4Dawn (and the other students) will be able to differentiate between the movements, methods, tactics, expressions, and technical makeup of each of the different Ryuha. Of course, at this point, he only has some experience in Gyokko Ryu, so such distinctions are a little way off for him (he will need the experience in the others first, at a minimum).
