The layered bunkai theory is stupid

[marvin8]

I thought dead hand means that there is no movement.

Yes, passive or no purpose. My thought is chambering an empty hand can make it passive. Pulling an arm with hikite is an active hand, different from empty hikite. An article from Iain's blog.

Excerpt from "Practical Applications of Uke Waza by Andy Allen:"

Motobu coined the term ‘husband and wife hands’, or ‘mefutode’. He wrote,

"When facing an opponent in a combative posture it is important to know the lead hand can be used to deal with both offensive and defensive issues. The lead hand can be used for both protecting and attacking concurrently. The rear hand is used as a reserve if and when the front hand cannot accomplish the intended outcome. Then mefutode can be used for both offense and defense."

Motobu criticized the practice of chambering the rear hand at the hip poised to strike as this eliminated its potential as a defensive weapon....

 

[JowGaWolf]

This technique is very similar to one that I use in Jow Ga kung fu.

I use a punch that chambers at the hip because you won't get this kind of clearance if your opponent has a certain type of guard. This stance locks the person's foot work but I do mine in bow either keeps you from being punched. It looks like he's got a foot hook ready too.
Jow ga calls this technique "block punch" his stance is lower than his opponent so he probably didn't punch from the hip.

This is one of the reasons why I say that the chamber at the waist is an advanced technique. The movement fir the technique is a beginner level. For a beginner it's probably more of a motor skills training. In application this technique seems to always require an advance technique to deploy it.

I was showing my Muay thsi sparring partner this and he thinks he can counter this. I grinned and said that this is one of those techniques that if you get caught in it then you are screwed.

 

[marvin8]

Just looked him up. Many of the things he does and perception of martial arts is same. The biggest difference would be "If you don't fight that way then why train that way." My saying is "We fight how we train" Both of these think need context in order to understand what is meant and by what degree. This makes me think that that some of his quotes are taken out of context.
.I'm still trying to find some of his kata. I'm hoping to find photos of him doing it.

Choki wrote some books and there are some photos floating around. Here waKu goes over one of them.

waKu said Choki only did one kata Naihanchi.

 

[isshinryuronin]

.I'm still trying to find some of his kata. I'm hoping to find photos of him doing it.

Motobu was the "bad a**" Mike Tyson of Okinawan karate. Consider his quote from 1926: Karate allows one "... to stand fast in dire situations and break an opponent bare-handed." He perfected his skills by prowling the rough parts of town and picking fights (hopefully against deserving characters.)

His fighting doctrine included meotode, or husband and wife hands, meaning both hands should work like a team with one hand blocking and the other simultaneously striking as your posted photo of him shows. Much grabbing hikite and trapping was also employed and he liked using the front hand for both offense and defense. Both hands up so they are closer to the opponent was another of his preferences.

Yet, in photos of his kata you will see hands chambered on his hip as still seen in today's kata. Despite his brutal fighting style, according to Nagamine Shoshin, he had great respect for traditional kata (Naihanchi was the one he saw most valuable for its effective combat applications).

Single still photos of kata (as Marvin8 posted just above) are pretty much useless as they show only ending positions. The key is what the hands were doing before they got there.

 

[JowGaWolf]

My thought is chambering an empty hand can make it passive.

Think of chambered punches like a car at a stop sign. It doesn't park there. At the most it may be a short full stop. But normally goes you the chambered position for a brief stop to change direction. From pull to push for a lack of a better phrase. I'm saying this with assumption that punching more than once in a fight is the norm.

Motobu coined the term ‘husband and wife hands’, or ‘mefutode’.

I read this as well but to me this is just a fighting stance default. The habit that I spoke of. If a person doesn't know how to fight then this is the best hand position for them to take a beating. It requires no skill to have the hands placed there. The low chambered fist at the waist requires additional skill sets in order to successfully use it. One has to be aware of the opening that it come with it and how to reduce those risks.

It's that additional knowledge which allows people to use it safely. But if the person doesn't know how to use it, then the fighting stance with hands up is the better option. I start beginners with the generic fighting stance

 

[marvin8]

At 4:00, a discussion of Karate and Wing Chun pulling hand.

 

[Steve]

I'm not commenting on the argument, but just commenting on you referring to straw man. Straw man is when someone is actively creating a persona that they can win an argument against. It's not misunderstanding someone's argument, or arguing incorrectly against them. Generally by the time that two people are actually engaged in debate, without referring to a third party, a straw man is not happening.

Hey, just to put a finer point on this, straw man around here is usually something along the lines of, 'You're saying X. And X is wrong because Y.' Where X is a distorted (generally oversimplified or intentionally misleading) version of what the other person is saying. Is less about a third party and more about the creation of a third argument or position, usually one that is less nuanced and more easily rebutted.

That said, not everyone who does this is self-aware. Personally, I think it should be required that everyone take a basic logic class and spend at least a few months on a debate team before graduating high school. At least then we'd know folks should know better.

 

[JowGaWolf]

At 4:00, a discussion of Karate and Wing Chun pulling hand.

The kung fu version of pulling hand is how I learned it. I posted a screen shot of me using pulling hand in sparring. The pull is short and quick which causes my opponent's body to jolt. In the video of me doing this it shows my sparring partner reacting this way. Even if I pull hard the distance short and it doesn't go you the waist. We have a different pulling hand that is pulled to the waist. But for the most part we just need enough disruption to get our attack through.

Kung fu likes to hit people when they are trying to regain balance.

 

[JowGaWolf]

At 4:00, a discussion of Karate and Wing Chun pulling hand.

This is why I like sharing with people outside my system. They may have pieces that I'm missing. One thing that he says is that his grand masters never taught which he seemed surprised. For me I just assume that one technique has a minimum of 5 additional applications and the person who is teaching me may only know three depending on their ability to apply it. I don't expect masters to know everything I just expect them to be really good at what they know.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Single still photos of kata (as Marvin8 posted just above) are pretty much useless as they show only ending position

I figure the more exposure I get the better. One day I may see the application and remember the photo and the light bulb comes on.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Personally, I think it should be required that everyone take a basic logic class and spend at least a few months on a debate team before graduating high school. At least then we'd know folks should know better.

It wouldn't help. I had 2 years of logic in college and hated all of it. I probably still have those books.

 

[Steve]

It wouldn't help. I had 2 years of logic in college and hated all of it. I probably still have those books.

you’re making the point for me.

 

[JowGaWolf]

you’re making the point for me.

Doesn't matter. My logic not yours. Logic doesn't have to make sense. I spent 2 years with that running through my mind

 

[Steve]

Doesn't matter. My logic not yours.

Haha. Exactly.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Haha. Exactly.

You guys can have it. Lol

 

[GojuTommy]

Doesn't matter. My logic not yours. Logic doesn't have to make sense. I spent 2 years with that running through my mind

“Logic doesn’t have to make sense”

That really explains a lot about you…if it doesn’t make sense it’s not logic, something that doesn’t make sense is the opposite of logical, it’s illogical….like every single argument you’ve tried to make here…

 

[JowGaWolf]

“Logic doesn’t have to make sense”

That really explains a lot about you…if it doesn’t make sense it’s not logic, something that doesn’t make sense is the opposite of logical, it’s illogical….like every single argument you’ve tried to make here…

Interesting.
Are you sure your comments make sense to you?

 

[drop bear]

A lot of places teach ‘beginner’ interpretations of kata movements, along side mid level and advanced interpretations.

Some people even claim this was an intentionally created feature of kata…something I don’t believe for a second.

However I understand aside from a few newer kata it’s pretty much impossible to know original intent behind kata movements. This means your interpretation is just as valid and true as mine, assuming both make sense and can be practically applied. This does open the door to teaching multiple techniques of varying difficulty for the same movement or set of movements, which is fine.

My issue is that the beginner’s interpretations are often taught to simply mimic the movement from kata, including chambering an empty hikite, which plays no role in fighting in any sense, and which only builds bad habits, and harms the students ability to effectively apply a technique.

It reminds me of people who interpret the writings of nostrodamus.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It reminds me of people who interpret the writings of nostrodamus.

In what way?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I really like the footwork used in this clip. Sometimes I just walked like this for 1/2 miles. Dynamic punch is always more fun to train than static punch.

If you try the following drill in 2 different ways:

Pull your punch back to

1. high guard.
2. your waist.

Do you feel that 1 can give you more speed, and 2 can give you more power?