The Latest Crime Wave - Sending your child to a better school

[Makalakumu]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903285704576557610352019804.html?mod=opinion_newsreel

In case you needed further proof of the American education system's failings, especially in poor and minority communities, consider the latest crime to spread across the country: educational theft. That's the charge that has landed several parents, such as Ohio's Kelley Williams-Bolar, in jail this year.


An African-American mother of two, Ms. Williams-Bolar last year used her father's address to enroll her two daughters in a better public school outside of their neighborhood. After spending nine days behind bars charged with grand theft, the single mother was convicted of two felony counts. Not only did this stain her spotless record, but it threatened her ability to earn the teacher's license she had been working on.


Ms. Williams-Bolar caught a break last month when Ohio Gov. John Kasich granted her clemency, reducing her charges to misdemeanors from felonies. His decision allows her to pursue her teacher's license, and it may provide hope to parents beyond the Buckeye State. In the last year, parents in Connecticut, Kentucky and Missouri have all been arrested—and await sentencing—for enrolling their children in better public schools outside of their districts.


These arrests represent two major forms of exasperation. First is that of parents whose children are zoned into failing public schools—they can't afford private schooling, they can't access school vouchers, and they haven't won or haven't even been able to enter a lottery for a better charter school. Then there's the exasperation of school officials finding it more and more difficult to deal with these boundary-hopping parents.

From California to Massachusetts, districts are hiring special investigators to follow children from school to their homes to determine their true residences and decide if they "belong" at high-achieving public schools. School districts in Florida, Pennsylvania and New Jersey all boasted recently about new address-verification programs designed to pull up their drawbridges and keep "illegal students" from entering their gates.

This is mindnumbing insanity. How can you steal something that is "free"?

 

[granfire]

Not to mention the money they spend on sniffing out and procecuting those 'thieves'....

 

[cdunn]

We pretend that our educational system is best off being locally controlled and funded; so long as that is so, then the myriad various schools are the property of the communities that pay for them. With that view point, 'boundary hopping' is fraud.

Better is to fix the system to reduce the 'failure' of these 'bad' school districts.

That won't happen. Remember, feudal peons are to be kept ignorant.

 

[jks9199]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903285704576557610352019804.html?mod=opinion_newsreel



This is mindnumbing insanity. How can you steal something that is "free"?

Because it's not free... Public education is funded through property taxes and other public monies such as grants. A student enrolling from outside the school district hasn't paid into that system.

I'm not suggesting that there're not systemic problems with our current education model, which tends to warehouse kids and has been forced to do a bunch of other societal tasks unrelated to education -- but cheating the system isn't the solution, either. Not that I think felony convictions were in order...

 

[decepticon]

Because it's not free... Public education is funded through property taxes and other public monies such as grants. A student enrolling from outside the school district hasn't paid into that system.

I'm not sure it works that way. I also live in Ohio and if that were true then our poor, rural county would not be able to fund its schools at all. In my understanding, The portion of my tax money that goes to education gets sent to Columbus and then the state DOE decides how it will be parceled out.

Also, what about students whose families rent instead of owning in an area? Their family hasn't paid into the property taxes for that area, but they still are permitted to attend school there.

This is also a huge issue when looking at college tuition. In-state tuition fees are often thousands of dollars less than those for out of state students. There are many tricks and hoops through which to jump to establish residency.

 

[MJS]

Hmm...I have to go with JKS on this. As for renters....even if they're not paying property tax, they're still going to be paying tax, such as taxes on vehicles, and that will be in the town/city they live in.

A question that I have is: Is it really the schools or is it the people attending the schools? I mean, if you're a teacher, and you're giving an honest attempt to teach, but the students dont wan to learn....is that the school systems fault...or the students? Has there been solid documented cases of school systems being better in one town/city compared to another? What about over crowding? People already ***** about that. So now, you're going to add "X" number of students from 3 other towns? Is the student/teacher ratio going to be even?

Likewise, I am not saying there aren't issues either, but how about working on fixing the broken system, instead of bussing people in from all over the place. As for being arrested....I linked a story similar to this, earlier this year....I think that may be a bit much.

 

[granfire]

Well, if you go by that, the grandfather of the children paid their share.
After all if you don't have kids your taxes are not lower either.



As to the quality of the schools....like real estate, location location location......
I don't know if the bad schools are bad because the teachers are or if the teachers become bad because the schools are. But I am very sure they remain bad because the parents don't care. The old school my kid went to, any given time parents were invited you would only see a handful of parents. The new school has to actually schedule a larger room to accommodate all of them. While I never had a problem with the teacher's dedication to their craft (I got lucky, but not all teachers are created equal) I have seen a few that clearly did not cut the muster.

 

[cdunn]

I'm not sure it works that way. I also live in Ohio and if that were true then our poor, rural county would not be able to fund its schools at all. In my understanding, The portion of my tax money that goes to education gets sent to Columbus and then the state DOE decides how it will be parceled out.

Also, what about students whose families rent instead of owning in an area? Their family hasn't paid into the property taxes for that area, but they still are permitted to attend school there.

This is also a huge issue when looking at college tuition. In-state tuition fees are often thousands of dollars less than those for out of state students. There are many tricks and hoops through which to jump to establish residency.

Renters pay property taxes. It just goes through a second party.

 

[Makalakumu]

Not all school systems are paid via property taxes. In many states, the majority of the money comes directly from the legislature.

Sent from my Eris using Tapatalk

 

[MPC1257]

Vouchers! But that isn't going to happen either.

 

[MJS]

Well, if you go by that, the grandfather of the children paid their share.
After all if you don't have kids your taxes are not lower either.



As to the quality of the schools....like real estate, location location location......
I don't know if the bad schools are bad because the teachers are or if the teachers become bad because the schools are. But I am very sure they remain bad because the parents don't care. The old school my kid went to, any given time parents were invited you would only see a handful of parents. The new school has to actually schedule a larger room to accommodate all of them. While I never had a problem with the teacher's dedication to their craft (I got lucky, but not all teachers are created equal) I have seen a few that clearly did not cut the muster.

I agree that location plays a big part. I mean the property values of a house in a poor section vs a more well to do section will probably differ greatly. Likewise I dont know either, if he problem lies with the teachers or the students, but IMO, I think its an important factor. OTOH, I've seen some restaurants that look like crap on the outside, yet the food is excellent. There are a few diners in the area that're like this, in addition to a restaurant that my wife and I went to when we were in Vegas.

So, I guess until we figure out whether its actually the students who just dont care, the teachers or the parents, this is an issue that'll just keep going around and around...lol.

IMO, if the teachers aren't doing their job, they should be told to step it up, or otherwise get someone in who can do the job. The parents....well, probably not much you can do with them. I mean, kids learn what they live, so if the parents grew up with parents who didn't care, then it'll just rub off on their kids.

 

[granfire]

I agree that location plays a big part. I mean the property values of a house in a poor section vs a more well to do section will probably differ greatly. Likewise I dont know either, if he problem lies with the teachers or the students, but IMO, I think its an important factor. OTOH, I've seen some restaurants that look like crap on the outside, yet the food is excellent. There are a few diners in the area that're like this, in addition to a restaurant that my wife and I went to when we were in Vegas.

So, I guess until we figure out whether its actually the students who just dont care, the teachers or the parents, this is an issue that'll just keep going around and around...lol.

IMO, if the teachers aren't doing their job, they should be told to step it up, or otherwise get someone in who can do the job. The parents....well, probably not much you can do with them. I mean, kids learn what they live, so if the parents grew up with parents who didn't care, then it'll just rub off on their kids.

A few years back we had one school district being told to step it up or be put under direct state supervision...you never heard the outcry! Not sure if they fixed the school, since they found 50 million dollars missing in the coffers for the school system....ouch.

 

[Carol]

Funding is all local here, from property taxes. We do not have a state income tax, nor do we have a state sales tax.

(We don't pay our legislatures either, their pay is exactly $100 per year).

 

[jks9199]

Renters pay property taxes through the landlord. I guarantee that if I rent my place out, the rent is going to take into account the taxes I'll have to pay...

The basic model of funding the school system is through local taxes. Yes, many states (if not all) today recirculate some of that money at the state level -- but you'll still see huge differences between a rural or blighted urban school against a wealthy suburban community. It ain't all "extra" money dumped in from the parents... The state money is essentially a supplement to the local money, not a wholesale redistribution.

 

[jks9199]

Not all school systems are paid via property taxes. In many states, the majority of the money comes directly from the legislature.

Sent from my Eris using Tapatalk

And where does the legislature get the money to dole out?

 

[cdunn]

Not all school systems are paid via property taxes. In many states, the majority of the money comes directly from the legislature.

Sent from my Eris using Tapatalk

The locals still make the budgets and the curricula - The state may set standards for these, but the locals still have the bulk of control.

 

[Cyriacus]

This is like taking a Train Ride to another City. Then stealing a Free Sample off one of those Ladies who stands around with a Tray.

 

[Makalakumu]

Or its like being forced to buy rotten apples while your neighbors are forced to buy slightly worm ridden apples. There actually is no moral high ground here because everyone is having money taken from them and having a product forced down their throats. Can you blame any one for trying to game this unfair system?

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[David43515]

Just this morning I was reading a story about a school district in Kansas that is so poor that 65% of it`s student body recieve free meals because their families are considered to live below the pverty line. But they still manage to have zero drop outs in the last five years, the vast majority of their grads go on to university, and the kids score higher on standardized tests than 90% of the students in the industrialized world. In fact there`s only one school district in the US that scores higher in math. Simply throwing money at a problem isn`t always the best solution. The superintendant of the school district said that they`re not really doing anything new or different from other schools, they just have lot`s of parental involvment and the kids know there`s a tradition of doing well and that they`re expected to have high standards.

 

[oftheherd1]

Hmm...I have to go with JKS on this. As for renters....even if they're not paying property tax, they're still going to be paying tax, such as taxes on vehicles, and that will be in the town/city they live in.

As has been mentioned below your post, renters do pay property taxes through their landlord.

A question that I have is: Is it really the schools or is it the people attending the schools? I mean, if you're a teacher, and you're giving an honest attempt to teach, but the students dont wan to learn....is that the school systems fault...or the students? Has there been solid documented cases of school systems being better in one town/city compared to another? What about over crowding? People already ***** about that. So now, you're going to add "X" number of students from 3 other towns? Is the student/teacher ratio going to be even?

You have an excellent question with multi-faceted needs for solving. Some problems were probably a result of earier attempts to fix things. Below you bring up busing. that was probably the first thing that got screwed up. Granted, there was a major problem that needed solving. Bussing might have been a good quick fix at the time. Something had to be done.

But the courts dabbled in legislating. That is illegal in itself. Unless the legislature has given them other options by passed law (which agrees with the constitution), courts are only for interpreting law based on the US or State constitution. Or if all parties have agreed to some binding arbitration if that is allowed by law. Otherwise, their only function is as allowed by the constitution and law passed by the legislature. They have no power to arbitrarily decide that the death penalty is justified for grand larceny. Nor to mandate busing, good or bad. All that to say they had no authority to order busing. Even if they had, as a long term solution, it has worked out not to be a good solution after all. It destroyed the sense of neighborhood.

Your kids may not be able to play with some of their friends at school at night, since they live too far away (sometimes many miles). Other than schools, what do parents of kids who live miles away, or in different neighborhoods, have in common. If the parents in your neighborhood talk often and share common beliefs in staying involved in their kids education, including homework, and I and my neighbors don't, nor even care to talk to each other much, how much else do we not have in common? Integration was a good thing, and needed. Busing may have been the best solution anyone could think of at the time, but its negative impact now requires a fix of its own imho.

And I obviously do not excuse parents of their obligation to be involved in their kids learning. But the problem created by mixing kids who did not have a commonality of parents who were willing to get positively involved, with those who did have that commonality, compounded by the fact we didn't provide extra resources to the schools and teachers, has done our schools no good service.

Teachers bear some responsibility themselves. Frankly, we handed them a difficult if not impossible task. Mix kids who do not have parents who care enough to get involved, therefore don't come to a new school with the same amount of learning as other students, or the reverse, is a problem for teachers. Where do you start? Do you go back for everybody, or just abandon those who aren't yet up to par? If you want to do both, where do you get the time? If you don't have the time, which group are you going to in effect punish? Add to the mix that we don't give teachers the tools we used to.

I don't condone child abuse, but effective corporal punishment does have a place. It has to be closely monitored of course. But no teacher these days would dare do such a thing. More sadly, it isn't done at home. A good swift swat (not a beating) on the glutous maximus will get attention, let the child know they have in fact crossed a line, and let them know there is disapproval for that action beyond "don't do that." Also, teachers seem very much discouraged to fail students, even if they are deserving. It seems to be taken as a sign they can't teach, not that the students don't want to, or can't learn.

Even the above aside, why did anybody think it was OK to mix students of greatly different learning levels, and not provide more teachers and any other needed resources to address that problem? We might have saved ourselves and our education system a lot of grief. We might have turned around a lot of students who wanted to learn, but needed a little extra help to catch up. That might have kept some caring students from oping out of learning.

OK, so we took some tools away from teachers. What did they do? My take on it is that they often began to opt out, that because they maybe didn't care, or just didn't feel they had another option. Misbehaving student? Go to the principle or the counseler. Won't listen to them, go to a special school. Don't learn, well pass them anyway so you don't get censored; the next poor teacher will just have to cope like you did with those you shouldn't have gotten. Realizing potential for criticism, they banded together in unions, and finding some power, began demanding things like tenure along with higher pay. Not better tools or more help from parents.

Before you think I am totally down on teachers, let me tell your there are still some really good and dedicated teachers out there. I have met many of them when my girls were in school, and now that my grandkids are. Thank God for them! They still try and do everything they can. Teaching is a calling to them, not just a job, because every other major in college was too hard. ;-) But sadly, I think too many of them have just given up and gone with the flow, as long as the paycheck keeps coming in. And I don't begrudge anyone a living wage, nor pay for work done. When I was a kid, teaching wasn't a very high paying job. It still isn't one that makes most teachers rich. And these are people we trust with out kids for several hours a day, and many years, and hold their feet to the fire for our kid's education.

Likewise, I am not saying there aren't issues either, but how about working on fixing the broken system, instead of bussing people in from all over the place. As for being arrested....I linked a story similar to this, earlier this year....I think that may be a bit much.

I sure am with you on that. And we need to get to work on it soonest. I personally just don't know quite what to do. And discussing it here, by itself, isn't going to fix anything. Granted, ideas need to be hashed out, but only correct action will really fix anything.

Did I miss making anyone mad? That wasn't my intention. Sorry if I have. I think this is a really good topic for discussion, and have just given my persepective or observations. If you disagree, PLEASE be quick to tell me and others why. Just please don't do it in anger. Give reasons, and if you have ideas for solutions, please share them. If enough people agree, maybe they will start sharing them in their neighborhoods and something useful can come of it.

Makalakumu - Thanks for starting this thread. I don't know if it is going where you intended, but I think it is going a good way nonetheless.