The Khazar Myth and the new antisemitism

[Tez3]

Thank god I'm an atheist...

So are many Jews.

 

[Makalakumu]

Well, I dunno-I'm willing to give Scott the benefit of the doubt on this one.

Thanks, John, btw. The only reason why I would question at all is that during my lifetime the track record of governments/corporations misusing science to bolster their political claims has been dismally poor. We could be talking about Israel, the US, or Russia for that matter, and I'd question a claim they made, especially if it seems like there is evidence to the contrary.

What surprised me about this topic, now that I've learned more, is how politically and emotionally connected some of our Jewish MT members are over it. I understand why it grew to be that way. That said, I just wanted to say, there is nothing personal about my skepticism. If my skepticism is rooted in ignorance, I'll accept that and move on.

The claim was made that these studies were definitive and the authors of the most recent study has basically stated that it isn't. We've got history books in Eastern Europe that talk about mass conversions linking back to the Khazars. This is being dismissed as anti-semetic and the genetic study is being used as the basis for this. I wonder if the political and emotional pressure is forcing people to make the science say more then it really is saying.

 

[Makalakumu]

It matters because the argument that Ashkenazi Jews are all of European descent, therefore have no ancestral ties or rights to that land is being made to de-legimitize Israel.

Couldn't Israel simply say that there are plenty of people who chose to convert and we accept all of these people into our family and so it doesn't matter? Would Christians deny their converts access to the Holy Land because they were not part of the original gene pool of Christians?

 

[Archangel M]

Couldn't all these "Khazar" groupies drop the whole "You were not from there originally so get out" ********?

 

[CanuckMA]

What surprised me about this topic, now that I've learned more, is how politically and emotionally connected some of our Jewish MT members are over it. I understand why it grew to be that way. That said, I just wanted to say, there is nothing personal about my skepticism. If my skepticism is rooted in ignorance, I'll accept that and move on.

We are connected because there is so very few of us. ALL of us have connections to the Shoah. Some much closer than others. We are weary of people questioning our legitimacy. Also, ALL of us has connections to Israel. We have family, friends, aquaintances living there. A lot of us visit regularly. It may be difficult to understand, but Israel is the only place where we can feel really comfortable. Look, I'm Orthodox. Israel is the only place I'm comfortable earing my kippa. It's also the only place I can know I can eat in the overwhelming majority of restaurants, even street food.

The claim was made that these studies were definitive and the authors of the most recent study has basically stated that it isn't. We've got history books in Eastern Europe that talk about mass conversions linking back to the Khazars. This is being dismissed as anti-semetic and the genetic study is being used as the basis for this. I wonder if the political and emotional pressure is forcing people to make the science say more then it really is saying.

While not dismissing out of hand, I'd be carefull with history books from Eastern Europe. Especially when it deals with Jewish history. Much of the Eastern Block countries were/are anti-semetic. Remember that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion originated in Russia.


The Khazar thing has been largely debunked. Here's what we know for sure about that period. In order to not be absorbed either politically or culturaly by their Xtian and Muslim neighbours, the Khazar king declared Judaism as the official religion of the kingdom. He likely converted. It is likely that a part of the nobility did as well. Where the myth gets hard to confirm is that there is no physical evidence of a large number of synagogues in the country, nor is there any mention of a large Jewish settlement in that region. We can be somewhat obsessed with genealogy, some of it comes from trying to find relatives after the Shoah. But there is no evidence of Jews tracing their lineage through the Khazars.

Science pretty much says what science says. It was not one study, it was several. Some were medically driven, trying to answer questions about the preponderence of certain genetic diseases amongst Jews. Some were more socioligical, studying small isolated groups not assimilating.

 

[CanuckMA]

Couldn't Israel simply say that there are plenty of people who chose to convert and we accept all of these people into our family and so it doesn't matter? Would Christians deny their converts access to the Holy Land because they were not part of the original gene pool of Christians?

See, that is OUR attitude. Once you convert, you are a Jew. We are not allowed to remind converts that they are converts.


Unfortunately, that is not the atitude of those using the Khazars to point out that the Jews in Israel are really Europeans and therefore have no claim to the land in the Middle East.

 

[Touch Of Death]

The way I understood the term Khazar was that it was a regional culture shared by all three Abrahamic religions. The Yezidi have a thing or two to say about all of them. LOL

 

[CanuckMA]

It may very well be now.

 

[Ken Morgan]

Can someone enlighten me?
Historically speaking, why are Jewish People a target of antisemitism? Is it the whole killers of christ nonsense? Or is there more to it? Was it because the RC church, the Protestant churches and the Muslims had the advantage of numbers and money, therefore power, and they looked for easy scapegoats?

 

[CanuckMA]

Can someone enlighten me?
Historically speaking, why are Jewish People a target of antisemitism? Is it the whole killers of christ nonsense? Or is there more to it? Was it because the RC church, the Protestant churches and the Muslims had the advantage of numbers and money, therefore power, and they looked for easy scapegoats?

If I knew that, I'd be making millions on the speaking circuit.

There is no one reason. Cahill, in The gift of the Jews puts forth that the world never forgave us for giving them morality. Or as the old joke goes

Moses comes down from Sinai and addresses the People.
"Good news, I bargained Him down to 10, bad new is adultery is still in"
​

Jews have always been apart from their host countries. We speak a different language, eat different food, etc. When something goes wrong, blame the stranger. Look at the Black Death. Jews were blamed for it in a lot of places. Thing is, as part of our religious ritual before eating, we wash our hands. Men and women immerse in a Mikvah regularly. In short, we bathed. But the population around us only saw strange people that seemed unaffected.

Because of our tradition of learning, we tend to be over represented in some circles. For a long time, the Church would only allow Jews to handle banking. We got good at it. And being dispersed all over, commerce was easy. All of a sudden, you have a people who keep to themselves, are educated, have some control over the treasury of the state, who are high up in the court and who travel and meet freely.

The killing Jesus thing Jesus didn't help.

OTOH, I like to say

Look, we did not kill the dude. The Italians did. But even if we did, where would Xtianity be without the crucifiction?

 

[CoryKS]

Can someone enlighten me?
Historically speaking, why are Jewish People a target of antisemitism? Is it the whole killers of christ nonsense? Or is there more to it? Was it because the RC church, the Protestant churches and the Muslims had the advantage of numbers and money, therefore power, and they looked for easy scapegoats?

Take every criticism you've ever heard about capitalism and replace the word "capitalist" with "Jew". The song remains the same, they've just changed some of the words.

 

[Makalakumu]

See, that is OUR attitude. Once you convert, you are a Jew. We are not allowed to remind converts that they are converts.


Unfortunately, that is not the atitude of those using the Khazars to point out that the Jews in Israel are really Europeans and therefore have no claim to the land in the Middle East.

So, it wouldn't be a political issue if the opposition to Israel didn't keep bringing it up? For a Jew, a Jew is a Jew, no matter what?

It seems to me that even if some Jews do not have direct biologic links to the majority, the bulk of the major communities do, so the argument being made by the opposition really doesn't have much to it no matter how one slices the issue we've been discussing. What do you think?

Thanks for your dialogue, btw, I understand this issue a lot better now.

 

[CanuckMA]

So, it wouldn't be a political issue if the opposition to Israel didn't keep bringing it up? For a Jew, a Jew is a Jew, no matter what?

It seems to me that even if some Jews do not have direct biologic links to the majority, the bulk of the major communities do, so the argument being made by the opposition really doesn't have much to it no matter how one slices the issue we've been discussing. What do you think?

Thanks for your dialogue, btw, I understand this issue a lot better now.

That's the gist. Except that the opposition brings up the Khazars as a way to sever that tie.

We have our own internal battles about who is a Jew, mostly revolvng about validity of conversion, and in a huge way a political battle. But in effect, once you are a Jew, Israel welcomes you.

 

[Tez3]

First of all, it's not the Jews who are pushing the whole genetic thing, our claims were never based on science. The genetic thing came into play because there are people who wanted to prove that the Jews in Europe weren't from the Middle East and so had no claim on Israel. The Jewish claim wasn't made on genetics, and the Jews aren't hung up on the genetic proof. We believe our claims are based on legal precedences, mandates and international law as well as being morally right.
However what the genetics prove is that the European Jews are from Middle East stock. Again this is probably more important to non Jews, if anyone was converted properly they are a Jew full stop. It's the Gentiles that seem to find they need proof that we are or are not from the Middle East. Mauna you are correct, it wouldn't be a political issue if the opposition didn't keep bringing it up, it's not our basis for our claim on Israel.

I'm totally passionate about this subject yes, my mother was the only survivor of her large family from the camps. As my father was an orphan I had no uncles, aunts or cousins growing up. to be the child of a survivor is difficult, to see so many people you have never met hate you is chilling, to read so much rubbish about yourself and your people is horrible, to be blamed for so much is truly depressing. We didn't kill Jesus, we don't kill babies and drain their blood, we didn't cause 9/11 and we don't want to take over the world. We want to live in peace and for us to live in peace we need Israel, not just to live there but for our security and our safety.

Many of you on other threads have said that being armed is an Americans right, that you need to be able to defend yourself against the bad guys, that having a weapon is protection for you and your famlies. Israel is our protection. It shows the world that Jews will defend themselves whereas before we were known to be 'victims' now because of Israel people know we are strong and will defend ourselves, Israel sends a message loud and clear to the world..NEVER AGAIN .. will anyone try to destroy our people without us fighting back, Israel is the home that Jews know will take them in when all else is lost,it's the one place that will always stand up for us, that's why so many Jews who have no intention on settling there support it financially, it is our home, our blood, our family, our security and our love.

Jerry Springer who lost a great many of his family in the camps including both his aged grandmothers, tells the story of his parents. His mother phoned him to ask him to persuade his father who was getting on in years and whose eyesight was failing, to give up his car and stop driving. Jerry duly did as his mother asked but his father said 'No, son, I can't I need the car because one day it may all start again and we will need to escape again'. My mother to her dying day kept a small bag of diamonds she'd had bought instead of putting the money in the bank, with her and my father's passports ( mine and my brothers too when we were young) together so if they came for her again we could escape....where to? Israel of course, our land, something that is truly ours. Many would say how can we be so insecure? the Jews in Germany had been there for centuries, many assilimilated, they'd fought for Germany in the First World War, they were Germans through and through but the day came when their country turned on them. That's why allowing the Jews to carry guns would have been no good, they wouldn't have seen that they need to be armed in their own country against their own people the Germans, who would never turn against them, this was their neighbours, their friends, people they grew up with but turn they did. They destroyed the Jewish families they'd lived next to all their lives. their neighbours turned them in to the Gestapo, moved into their houses, wore their clothes, ate off their plates.

Would this happen now? No, because of Israel, our shield and our defender. We won't let Israel be destroyed, its that simple. With the current wars going on, people says it's good to die for your country, for us it's good to have a country to die for. And I for one will die for Israel if I have to. You can argue I'm British, yes I am and I won't be disloyal to the UK but I have my passport and a small velvet bag tucked away where I can get hold of it easily.

By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
Upon the willows in the midst thereof we hanged up our harps.
For there they that led us captive asked of us words of song, and our tormentors asked of us mirth: 'Sing us one of the songs of Zion.'
How shall we sing the Lord's song in a foreign land?
If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning.
Let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth, if I remember thee not; if I set not Jerusalem above my chiefest joy.

Psalm 137

And we remember.

 

[CanuckMA]

Thank you Tez.

We don't need genetics. Tez is Sephardi, I'm Ashkenaz. She's British, I'm Cabadian. We live 4,000 miles apart. But we could be brother and sister. We share 2 common languages. We share a common past. I'm a child of survivors. My parents we the only ones of their families to survive. Like a lot of survivors, they turned away from religion. They settled along the mainstream Montreal society. I went to French public school. Wich in Montreal in the 60s meant Catholic school. I was the only Jew in the school. It means I had to lie. I had to find excuses as to why I was not a Mass on Sunday.

We celebrated Shabbat by lighting candles. We had a Seder and ate no bread at Pesach. We fasted on Yom Kippur. Easter was a difficult time. We learned at school how my people was responsible for the death o ftheir god. I really had to lie. And it was painfull. My friends spoke about the family dinner. Dozens of people. Pesach is around that time. I too would have a special night. We ate different food, we listened to the story of the Exodus. Our entire family was there. The 5 of us.

Israel means my children and their children and thei chilfren's children will never have to endure this. When you visit Israel, the passport control officer greets you with Shalom. It's a versatile word. It means peace. It means hello. But for a Jew, that Shalom means 'Welcome home'.

I was too young to really comprehend the Six-Day War. But I followed intensly accounts of the Yom Kippur War. I looked at a map and felt pride after Entebbe. I cried reading about the airlift of the Ethiopian Jews. Here was a group of people we did not know. But they were art of us. And they were in trouble. Planes were stripped bare. Pilots flew around the clock. There are accounts of crew sleeping in the cockpit while the plane was being refuelled, waiting to take off again. They did not know those people. But they knew they were Jews. And they were in need of help. And Israel was there for them.

I'm a Canadian. Intensely proud of that fact. I never served in our armed forces, but if I'd had to, I would have. I would have laid my life for Canada. But I know what Canada did during the war. I know that she too was silent. I know that if the monster was to rise up again, there is only one place in the world for me. Half of us live outside Israel. If we had to we know we could all show up at her door. It would be an incredible strain. On the people, on the infrastructure, on the economy. But the passport control officer would smile and say Shalom, welcome home

 

[Archangel M]

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[xJOHNx]

Funny comedian, but not my style.

Funny how every form of criticism is directly placed under 'antisemitism'

 

[CanuckMA]

It's not the criticisim. Criticizing the government is Israel's national sport. It's it's the stridency and the imbalance.

Example:
Questioning why Israel does not allow constructoin material in Gaza is legit criticism.
Making it front page news and using the rethoric that is common raises it up a notch
Failing to point out that Egypt does the same thing is where it crosses from criticizing the actions of Israel into anti-semetism.

It's the high-pitch rethoric and criticism of actions that if you remove the word Israel, everybody would say that the actions are justified.

 

[xJOHNx]

It's the high-pitch rethoric and criticism of actions that if you remove the word Israel, everybody would say that the actions are justified.

No, and that's just playing the victim.

 

[Tez3]

Funny comedian, but not my style.

Funny how every form of criticism is directly placed under 'antisemitism'

And that's a very big cliche! It goes alongside that thing where the bully does something to his victim and then says 'where's your sense of humour?' and 'of course I'm not prejudiced some of my best friends are black'.

Tired old argument that, America takes a lot of flak for various things, a great deal of the worlds problems are lain at Americas feet, do you think thats because America deserves it or because there are people who hate America and will do anything and everything they can to destroy it such as 9/11? How do you feel about that criticisim, that it's fair, thats it's unbiased or is directed at America by people who are rabid in their hatred of all things American? Is it fair to criticise the actions of your government and your President or is it fairer to blame every single American? How do you feel about being blamed for the murder of the Muslims in the Balkans because Americans want all Muslims to die? There is virulent anti American feeling out in the world, you know it's unjustified, it's unfair and simply not the truth , it's fueled by hatred....the same is true of the criticism of the Jews.
Criticise away as long as it's a fair point and criticism is levelled across the board. don't criticise us either for things your country has also done, it's doesn't make it necessarily right but the pot can't call the kettle black. Remember the American invasion of Grenada?