The Jump Guard and self defense

[drop bear]

By the way I would need a BJJ guy in order to test my face stomp theory. I would have to blindside him with it because if I let him know, then he'll either be prepared to defend against it. I wouldn't actually stomp on his face. I just need to be able to get it a position that would either allow me to stomp or stand on his face. Being that I haven't tried the face stomp, at this point it's a theory. The rest however, I'm sure of.

The other thing we have to be mindful of is not to mix. Self-defense with Sports. We have already gone back and forth in context of that. In either self-defense or sports, my goal would be the same. Establish a good stance or give it up and go with the flow. This is something that I've learned from doing joint locks where, fighting the lock can cause more damage than going with the flow and countering the lock.

There is no sport or self defence distinction though. There is really only specific distinctions.

So you need to find a specific difference.

Eg. A mat will probably make a slam defence to a jump guard a bit less effective than a gutter. That isn't really street or sport. It is just two different environments p.

 

[drop bear]

Do this to prevent the slam:

His left hand is panel beating your head though. So it becomes an arms race to defend the slam and make the sweep before he makes the slam or nailed you in the head.

 

[drop bear]

Otherwise it used to be the go back in the day because I could bash a guy while it looked like he was winning.

But people know what guard is these days.

There are probably reasons I would do it. But I wouldn't advise it.

My view on self defense is to stay conservative.

 

[Hanzou]

In jacket wrestling, if you have a cross lapel grip (my favor grip but may be illegal in Judo), to land your forearm on your opponent's throat is almost by default. the higher your grip is, the closer your forearm is near your opponent's throat.

It's not pleasant when your opponent does this on you when you are on the ground.

Okay, in MMA where that is legal, I have never seen that happen when someone attempts a Jump Guard. At most, either the jumper gets slammed onto the canvas, or the takedown misses completely. When it is successful, the opponent's arms are no where near the throat. If you have some examples of this feel free to post them. Maybe I missed an attempt that led to what you're describing?

 

[Hanzou]

[
I'm not sure what to say about that. It creates an improper lift which is what a person wants. On the defensive side, it still puts the knees at risks. The moment I see the jump and feel the legs is the exact same moment I want to get my feet into a horse stance. Like Drop Bear hinted to. I want to be in control of your decent vs allow you to randomly slam into my body and I can't do that from a weak stance.

The reason I can't say anything about it is because I don't know what happens next after getting into a horse stance. The only things I know at that point are:

• that it reduces the risk of my knees folding backwards
• that I now have a good structure to stand if I need to. Even if my waist is bending slightly forward, I would be lifting with my legs vs trying to lift with my back.
  
• that I may be in a good position to stomp on your face (at this point your body will help me maintain balance on one leg by using your body as my support.
• By me going lower in my stance, it may interfere with the "next move" that you have planned. If I can get that delay then I may be able to escape or counter with something.

If I were going to make an attempt to stomp on your face then it would be at 0:08, I'm not staying it would work, it just that I would be in a position to do it with a good stance. The stance that the demo person is in, is not a good stance. Had the demo person re-positioned his legs at 0:08 and did a low squat then his opponent would not be directly under him because there would be no room for to get under. But the demo guy in black would have had to have a wider stance, and go with the flow vs fighting it. People ask what low horse stances are for. This would be one of those occasions.

Eh, I wouldn't attempt to lift your leg with that much weight on your body. You have a high chance of falling the wrong way and injuring yourself. Also lifting your leg is exactly what the jumpee wants you to do.

This is the same principle as the waiter sweep:

Pretty much a universal counter to guard slams. His is a bit better than the other example, because he actually scoops the leg while pushing back with his legs. However, it really doesn't take much to make someone fall via the sweep.

 

[Hanzou]

His left hand is panel beating your head though. So it becomes an arms race to defend the slam and make the sweep before he makes the slam or nailed you in the head.

I'll take a few face shot attempts over getting slammed into the concrete tyvm. Especially if it has the potential to lead me into the mount.

 

[Hanzou]

Here's Firas Zahabi's Jumping Web Guard. Pretty interesting variation IMO.

 

[JowGaWolf]

There is no sport or self defence distinction though. There is really only specific distinctions.

So you need to find a specific difference.

Eg. A mat will probably make a slam defence to a jump guard a bit less effective than a gutter. That isn't really street or sport. It is just two different environments p.

There's always a difference sports takes out options that otherwise would be used. which is why those slams are illegal is sports BJJ. In terms of MMA in cotext to the discussion there would be less of a distinction

 

[JowGaWolf]

Eh, I wouldn't attempt to lift your leg with that much weight on your body. You have a high chance of falling the wrong way and injuring yourself. Also lifting your leg is exactly what the jumpee wants you to do.

This is the same principle as the waiter sweep:

Pretty much a universal counter to guard slams. His is a bit better than the other example, because he actually scoops the leg while pushing back with his legs. However, it really doesn't take much to make someone fall via the sweep.

I can use your body to help me support the weight. When people try to take me down it looks like I have good footwork, but a lot of it is just me using my opponent to help support my weight and keep my balance. If your body is on the floor then I would attempt to use your body as a crutch. Doing this would allow me avoid carrying your weight. This would be critical if I were to try and support your weight. The higher up I am the more of your weight I'll have to support.

The video that you showed highlights this. I don't want to be in a horse stance that high. I want to take away leverage so I'm not carrying all of my oponents weight. The less weight I'm carrying the more difficult it should be for my opponent to pull me forward and down. From what I can tell in the videos is that there is some roll space involved where the person is trying to get underneath. My theory brings to question does getting into a low stance benefit the defense or harm/weaken it?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I'm not generally in favor of pulling guard in a self-defense situation, but I can imagine some theoretical situations where it might be a good idea.

Jumping guard? Hell, no. If someone is a good enough grappler that I can't take them down, they are good enough to slam me and give me a concussion or worse. It's already a high-risk move in a MMA context and they have some padding on the floor. I have no desire to get slammed on concrete (or on something hard and pointy like a fire hydrant).

 

[JowGaWolf]

I'm not generally in favor of pulling guard in a self-defense situation, but I can imagine some theoretical situations where it might be a good idea.

Jumping guard? Hell, no. If someone is a good enough grappler that I can't take them down, they are good enough to slam me and give me a concussion or worse. It's already a high-risk move in a MMA context and they have some padding on the floor. I have no desire to get slammed on concrete (or on something hard and pointy like a fire hydrant).

The way their heads bounce off the mat, it would easily be a fractured skull. Biologically most of the weak spots on a human are on the backside of the body or facing towards the center of the body.

If I was going to be slammed on the concrete, I rather not head fist or back first.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Your opponent's body weight will land on top of you. What if he drops his elbow joint or knee joint on your head, neck, chest, kidney area, belly, groin? A 180 lb average guy's weight on his elbow joint, or knee joint can cause a lot of damage. When injury happen, who's fault will the judge give?

1. He dropped his elbow on my neck on purpose.
2. He pulled me down, I lose balance, I just tried to maintain balance. It was a pure accident.

IMO, it's very difficult to judge 1 vs. 2 if you are the judge.

Many years ago, someone dropped his elbow joint straight down on top of my heart when I was on the ground. I got back up. Suddenly everything in front of me turned into darkness, and I fell back down again. I was almost killed that day.

If your opponent jumps guard properly, dropping your knee on them isn’t possible. The position is all wrong.

Dropping your elbow on them may be possible, depending on your opponent’s grips, but it usually isn’t in position for a devastating strike.

The real danger is just slamming their body full power into the ground, especially if you can aim for a hard surface.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Do this to prevent the slam:

That move (the waiter sweep) is a good one if your opponent stands in your guard. It doesn’t prevent the slam if your opponent drops the moment you jump guard. (Or if they grip your collar to hold your torso up long enough while they turn and find something especially hard and pointy to slam you on.)

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Here's Firas Zahabi's Jumping Web Guard. Pretty interesting variation IMO.

If you were going to jump guard, Firas’s approach has the advantage of loading the opponent’s body in an unbalanced fashion which makes it hard for them to control your landing. Still not something I would want to do off the mats though. Look at where he lands - on the back of his shoulders and neck. Not the best idea on a hard surface.

 

[drop bear]

I'll take a few face shot attempts over getting slammed into the concrete tyvm. Especially if it has the potential to lead me into the mount.

I think I would try a stand up and dodge the whole issue.

 

[Hanzou]

If you were going to jump guard, Firas’s approach has the advantage of loading the opponent’s body in an unbalanced fashion which makes it hard for them to control your landing. Still not something I would want to do off the mats though. Look at where he lands - on the back of his shoulders and neck. Not the best idea on a hard surface.

Firas has some other ones in the first video that I found pretty interesting where he doesn't end up rolling on his head and shoulders. They seem rather useful for bringing someone larger to the ground. Reminded me of a spider monkey honestly, but it was still pretty cool stuff.

 

[Hanzou]

I think I would try a stand up and dodge the whole issue.

Stand up after a failed jump guard, or stand up while someone is attempting the sweep?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

When it is successful, the opponent's arms are no where near the throat. If you have some examples of this feel free to post them. Maybe I missed an attempt that led to what you're describing?

What if your opponent's hand is already near your throat?

 

[Hanzou]

What if your opponent's hand is already near your throat?

You're jumping and wrapping your legs around their waist. Even if they grip near your throat, the grip isn't going to be on same level after the jump, and you're probably also going to try a different grip to control the takedown.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If your opponent jumps guard properly, dropping your knee on them isn’t possible. The position is all wrong.

If you wait until your opponent's legs wraps around your waist, it may be too late. But you and I both know that all wrestling counters may only work "before it almost happens but it hasn't 100% happened yet". Before your opponent's legs leaves the ground and wraps around your body, there can be just 1/4 second window.