Hi Disco,
Originally posted by Disco
I have finally come to a rational reason to be thankful for something other than me and mine. I am thankful for the absense of people (who choose to live in a utopian mindset), that they are not in positions of real power. What I don't understand is the fact that people on this site are (assuming) martial artists. We train for hand to hand combat and everybody has agreed that there are no rules in a real fight on the street. We have heard and read numerous times that everything is a target and your personal survival is paramount.
In Combat, I have teh assumption that soldiers are allowd to fire, and or stab or break arms/legs and necks as needed. This is Combat. On the street it is the same.
No let me ask, if you quit fighting on the street, and I tie you up and take you back to my hide out and then proceed to beat the crap out of you. This is not combat. This is not for survival. On the streets, you will find to suvivalist who will take honor in this deed. You will find no law officer or DA who says that YES you were still defending yourself.
Now, if during the battle you did a foot sweep and the bad guy went down and hit his head and was either a vegetable or dead, most people would ask for the trial, but would expect for you to be found innocent for your self defense.
In Combat, if they had shot him, and he started yelling that he hadinformation to give them to not shoot him again. I would see no problem with this.
There are rules of engagement, and of force use for both our Military and for our Civilian police officers and also for the citizens. If you ignore them then the government that has protected you, is expected to also prosecute you to protect the ideas of this country and also the other citizens.
Do, I for one believe this Lt Col should see 8 Years? No way. Do I think he should retire? Yes. My Opinion. Now should he loose, all of his pension for his service up to this point? No Way. Once again My Opinion.
Originally posted by Disco
Now here we have people that are distressed with the fact that someone didn't follow somebodies idea of fair play. If you are training in the arts and believe in so called fair play, your being hypocritical. I remember reading in history about Gen. Black Jack Pershing and what he did during the fighting in the Philippines. Nobody was screaming, off with his head and Oh what a bad officer - he should be removed and punished. Perhaps back then, people in general understood the value of saving our own.
Well I do not think I am a hypocrit, for the above reasons I posted. I Also think that there were no treaties in affect at the time that prohibited such action. Yes, the Spanish American War was a horrible little war, that the USA went into trying to get land and build an empire. We also treated American Indians like dirt. Even breaking our own Treaties with them. Was this right? Oh we got around it by pushing them to the breaking point where they would attack and then of course we had to go in and retaliate and teach them another lesson, and take their land that we wanted now.
Originally posted by Disco
Anybody can justify in their own mind that detached actions by another is wrong. But just let that same person become attached or someone close to them become part of the action and watch how fast their viewpoints change. Opinions are welcomed, but a condescending attitude is not.
As I stated before, I have never served. I have what I would call in my opinion street action, and times when I did not know if I was going to survive. I did what I had to do, most of the time. Yet even when I was out numbered 5 or 6 to one or even more. I took them out in a maner that tehy were still alive, and not dead. You see, the police do not like bodies that cannot respond. It makes all the paperwork oh so much more.
As to Attitude, that is why I left this thread the first time, Because I was presented with an attitude that my opinion was not wanted. That I did not understand. That was this little civilian who was monday morning arm chairing an event. I was told I was wrong, and that I had no place. What about these attitudes?
I could pull out the Mod Card and tell you all to go play nice, yet what would that solve. Nothing. This is personal to many of you, It is personal to me on other levels. Yet, I feel just as much condescending attitude from you sir, about your postition as I do from anyone.
Were you spit on, while you walked through protesters of ODShield and the later ODStorm? Just to get to your job? Did your car gat kicked, and did people threaten yuo just so you could go to work to build a better M1A2 tank for our men in the field? DId you work on a Better Fox NBCRS Vehicle to detect the Nuclear/Biological/Chemical Reconaisance Systems?
So, in your mind, I should have stopped gotten out of my car, and walked up to these people and just killed them because they spit on me or my car, kicked my fender. When the law clearly states that I had no right to escalate the level of violence up to that level. In matter of fact I was supposed to call the police. Yet the police all get bent when a civilian takes the law into his/her own hands. Almost like they take it personally. You cannot have it both ways, in my opinion that would be hypocritical.
So Disco, is my condenscending tone not welcome again? Or should I go enlist, and watch some real combat movies to get a better idea of what it is all about. Since you replied yes to all my questions I would assume that we can talk since by using your logic, you have meet my requirements of similar situations to understand my point of view. Yet like I said I may not have enough to talk to you?
Let me reiterate something.
In Combat anything goes. In Questioning a prisoner there are rules and international laws. In questioning a suspect, there are rules also. If a police officer was to get into a scuffle and then the bad guy gets restrained. Yes, there will be questiosn about the bruises. It sucks, yet the system is their to prevent the bad cop from abusing is power and authority, as opposed to the good police officers who beleive in their responsibilities. This good officer may have to answer questions on why this guy has a bruise.
Heck I know an officer that was on leave until the DA decided to clear him on a shooting. He showed up during the fire fight. He was able to fire and hit the bad guy. He had to be cleared. He had to prove he did not know this guy or had prior relations he had to prove that he did not wish ill intent. No one questioned that he was being fired upon. No questioned he took a clear shoot. And yes he hit center mass, to the point that the bad guy knew he was in trouble and shot himself in the head, so as to not be taken alive. He was cleared, yet he had to go through the procedure. Why to avoid the Bad cops being given free reign.
Have you ever been beaten by a Cop? I have have. And All good police officers (* And I know many *) are going to reply he must have done something to deserve it. Yes there was a car with two guys a beige 1977 Buick Regal, with Landau top that were doing lawn jobs in the rich neighborhood. I was with four otehr guys in a 1980 White Oldsmobile Delta 88 Regal. Now White to Beige could be an easy mistake. Two guys to five, could be someoen did nto see everyone. The real big issue is that the Regal was a two door, and the Olds was a four door and about two feet bigger. Also we were in a total different neighborhood then the crimes. I looked older, only because I was taller and had facial hair. The officer asked me, as he as questioning each one of us with out coats in February, since coats could hiude weapons, and the windows of our car had to be down so as to avoid steam on the windows, he asked me How Old are You? I said Sixteen, Sir. He replied Idiot your Seventeen. I said, No Sir, in September I will be Seventeen Sir. I then proceded to take on in the ribs. Did I mention that my hands were being held behind me by another officer. As I doubled over, I took a knee to the face. I tried to colapse to the ground I did not even try to free my hands. Yet the knee kind of stook me up. I to two shoots to the kidneys. One from a diiferent cop each. As I was fallen forward I then took another fist shoot to the face as the original officer cleared his pistol. As I was a young Punk in the wrong nighborhood identified by witness, the police defense, and I had resisted and cause tried to get physical, and it was my single word against six police officers. It did not go anywhere. The driver was also issues a speeding ticket for not speeding yet, it justified the pull over. After a total of an hour plus of freezing in the cold I was thrown into the back of a police car wiht hand cuffs (* Because I am a dangerous person *) and the cop yelled at me and told me to not not move, to not talk and to not breath, So I laid there with my head against the cage and my legs out the door, until the oficer of the vehicel came over and said, you can sit up punk. I slowly moved into a sitting position. I did not say a word. This officer then started talking to me. After a few minutes of no responce he told me I could respond. You see I was taking the Cops word of nto talking. You see that wanted all of to confess to do the vandleism. And, I had times and locations of where we were and who to ask for verifications. This seemed to upset the poilce more. I was lectured by many of them to not call them sir. I was trying to be respectful. So, this officer of the car I was in, started asking me questions. I answered as I had all night long. He asked me then why are we even talking to us, and why had I tried to swing at the other cop. I replied I never took my hands from my back until I was falling. He was very confused.
In the end the let us go. Want to know why. They threatened to take us in call our parents. At that point I replied (* Sarcastically, hell I already been beat up *) I asked for that before. I believe my parents woudl like to know why this happened to me. You see, after almost two hours they realized or suspected they might have the wrong people. Interesting concept. Yet, they tought they were doing the right thing.
I could never, get recourse on this issue.
So, would you like to come back to a country that supports this? for your children and grand children. That any officer can pull them over and beat them and freeze them and refuse minors access to their parents? This is why there are checks and balances, and rules and laws. I may not like them, and if I dislike them enough I try to change them from within the system. I do not go out side the system.
So, once again, I apologize for my Attitude and Condenscending Opinions to those who will not take a step back and take a deep breath and realize that, that is not my intention.
I am expressing my opinions, and using the system as it stands to show reasons why my opinions are the way I believe. You can disagree. You can not reply. You can put me on the ignore list. Please do not call me names, and insult me about living in Utopia. I live where I live and do not believe in a perfect world. I know from experience that it is not. This is why I beleive in the existing system of a jury trial to prove your case.
With Respect to those here and to those that have and are, and will serve this country.
:asian:
