The Fate of Lt. Colonel West: You can help!

[Karazenpo]

Lt. Colonel West is the U.S. serviceman who was interrogating an Al Queda operative. He fired two rounds in the vicinity of, not at, the operative. The subject immediately cooperated and the information he supplied prevented an attack on the Colonel's company. Please, let's not compare this to police interrogations in our country, let's just take it for what it is. From the information I have, the suspect was undenieably an Al Queda agent. It was believed he poccessed valuable life saving information regarding attacks planned on our troops. As it panned out, this was an accurate accessment. Again, please do not take this out of context as a breach of our civil rights as U.S. citizens and this becoming a police state. Treat it for exactly what it is in response to military warfare and what's been happening to both innocent civillians and our brothers and sisters overseas. The Colonel is facing a court marshal, loss of his, I think it's a 21 year pension and a possible 8 years in prison. There is a White House information number you can call to give your opinions on current events. They do listen to this and take into account what the bulk of the feelings are on a particular situation, after all its votes and an election is coming up. The # is 202-456-1111. Monday through Fridays, I think 9-5pm. What say you? It was brought up to me recently if I thought that the fact Col. West is a black man has anything to do with it. I hope the hell not but I really don't believe that's the case, however, something's wrong somewhere.
I say enough is enough with all these stupid politics, especially when it can cost us lives.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Karazenpo
I say enough is enough with all these stupid politics, especially when it can cost us lives.

It isn't politics if he broke the rules. There's sort of a military tradition of someone breaking a rule in a case like this for the good of all and realizing that because of the rule of (civilian) law that he'll get punished. Is that a bad thing--he gets the info. they need, but the govt. reasserts the rule of law?

In my experience in cases like this--if all is as you've heard--they give a discharge plus a slap on the wrist punishment so we can say we punish rule-breakers but with a wink-wink/nudge-nudge.

 

[Karazenpo]

Arnisador, as a veteran police officer (para-military) I totally understand what you mean and agree with you. At first glance my feelings were even though they got the info they needed, the political (more right wing) machine behind the military had to appease or throw a 'bone' to the more liberal left wing side. I hope this is not the case and your perspective and final judgement weighs out. Thanks for the response! Respectfully submitted.

 

[Elfan]

I agree with arnisador, military organizations can not afford to bend the rules just because it turned out okay in the end. Mr. West may have obtained valuable information, but it was through a direct violation of US law and he should be disciplined accordingly. I'm reminded of the classic Star Trek movies where Kirk disobeys a direct order and "saves the world," but is still court martialed. Of course he did end up with a slap on the wrist punishment.

 

[michaeledward]

At what point do the actions of Lt. Colonel West become 'Terrorism'?

I am reminded everyday that it is a group of 'Radical Islamic Fundamentalists' leading the attack against the United States

Yet, in this country, some 75% of the population believe that Judge Moore should have the right to exercise his 'Radical Christian Fundamentalist' beliefs.

At what point, does one become the other?

Please realize that I am not saying that Judge Moore is knit from the same cloth as Osama bin Laden. But haven't 'Radical Christian Fundamentalists' attacked reproductive health centers? Haven't 'Radical Christian Fundamentalists' assisinated doctors who practice procedures they find objectionable?

I can connect the dots between Radical Religous behavior and Terrorism. Which is why we must never allow our government to start down that path of torture. The operative was in custody and, I would imagine, unarmed. The ends can not be used to justify the means.

This is one reason why the Commander and Chief of the United States military is a civilian. It is too easy to justify Lt. Colonel Wests behavior from a military point of view.

I believe he should be punished. I believe he should have know better. I hope that he never, in my name, acts this way again.

Sincerely - Michael Atkinson

 

[Karazenpo]

Okay, I've had a little while to listen to the news stories on this and read other peoples' posts and I have mixed emotions on this one. Please let me express why. I know being in law enforcement(paramilitary) for almost three decades that when a police officer walks outside the rules and regulations or violates the civil rights of a citizen then action to some degree must be taken, all according to the severity of the violation. That goes undisputed. No argument from me. However, when I posted this question on Lt. Colonel West I asked please keep this seperate from the states and our rights in regards to law enforcement and our citizens. In one news story I heard it was stated the two situations are two different animals. We are talking about the 'theatre of combat' and not Main St. USA. Whether we want to admit it or not or the President wants to declare it or not, there is a war going on. For example, I just heard this morning that the wife and daughter of a 'bigwig' in Saddam's hierachy who is believed to be the one organizing the attacks on our troops have been taken into custody, held against their will and currently being interrogated. Now, as of yet nobody has been complaining about that but imagine if the police did that to family members of a fugitive criminal here in the states? A most definite civil rights violation! because Main St. USA is not a 'theatre of combat'. We cannot compare the two. As far as Lt. Colonel West goes I'll say this and I will stand by it no matter what anyone says. According to my information an Iraqi woman was interrogating the terrorist and was not getting anyway. They had enough previous information that something was going down and the life of many or our troops, a company of men and women under Lt. Colonel West were on the line. The Colonel stepped in and took over the interrogation and yes, he did fire two rounds, not at, but in the same room of the terrorist. As a matter of fact, he reported what he did to his superiors. No one was hurt including the 'primitive barbarian' and many of our U.S. troops were taken out of harm's way-their lives were saved!!! What if some of you reading this had family out their serving in Lt. Colonel West's company? How would you feel then? Would you want to see them come home in body bags because we are all so concerned about the 'rights' and treatment of ruthless killers of not only our troops but innocent men, women and children? Have you seen the mass graves there? There's no question in my mind. He saved the lives of many men and women who are serving for us, I say God Bless him and I wouldn't have wanted to see it handled any other way. A martial artist once said and I'll have to paraphrase because I can't remember the exact quote but this is close enough: "Martial artists who are totally pure of heart do not have what it takes to battle evil. Evil will overwhelm them, consume them and destroy them." I read this maybe 15-20 years ago. It's all about the 'yin & the yang'. I respect everyone's opinion, this is just mine and I'm sure many others too. Our guys come first against these animals and that's the bottom line! If something similiar to Lt. Colonel West's incident happened right after 9/11, we'd be having a ticker tape parade for him! How quick Americans seem to forget or it least lose their fighting spirit with time. What if the same siutation would have prevented 9/11? You mean to tell me you would speak out against this guy? Survey the families of 9/11 victims and see what they have to say? That he did the wrong thing and should be punished? Not to mention, imagine this gets out to the enemy which I'm sure it has by now, do you realize how many of our own will die because these barbarians know that we have to wine and dine them if they're captured! This is why these 'people', and I use the word people loosely, consider us 'weak' and feel we don't have the 'stomach' to defeat them. Some will throw at me 'the end does not justify the means', well, I think we ought to regroup on that one and truly understand who this enemy is and what they are capable of accomplishing if gone unchecked. We are battling a totally different enemy and different strategies may have to be used or we're going down! it's as simple as that. To Lt. Colonel Allen West, God Bless, 'Best of Luck' and Thank You for serving! By the way, there were many of his troops at his hearing for moral support. A news correspondant was saying you should have seen it. These U.S. soldiers in fatigues and full combat gear, 'crying' during his testimony. Don't their opinion count too? After all, they won't be sitting around a table tommoro in a warm house stuffing their face with turkey, instead they'll be thousands of miles away dodging rocket propelled grenades! Please give that some thought over the upcoming holidays! Respectfully submitted, Shihan Joe Shuras who's Dad was declared missing in action, wounded and captured, ex-POW, Purple Heart and Bronze Star and lives with the memories to this day. As you can tell, I'm very passionate when it comes to the ones who protect us in uniform and I have the right to be! "Happy Holidays to All and God Bless!"

 

[John Bishop]

A little more about the story:

West's unit was stationed in Tikrit, a stronghold for Saddam Hussein's loyalists where American soldiers face attacks almost daily. West had information about an imminent terror attack, and was interrogating a terror suspect.
Getting nowhere with him, Lt. Col West fired his pistol twice to scare the man into divulging information. The man got scared, gave up the information that West needed, and the attack was avoided.
So what's the problem, you're asking?
West's firing his weapon was a violation of the Geneva Convention , and as a result, he now faces a court martial for communicating a threat and aggravated assault.
West has been offered a choice. He can resign from the Army immediately, and forfeit his 20 year retirement, or he can face criminal charges which carry up to 8 years in prison.
This is wrong. I just don't believe the American people would have a problem with scaring a terrorist in order to save American lives. I do not advocate pulling out his fingernails or cutting off his toes, but I do not have any illusions that terrorists are complying with the Geneva Convention either. And that's why Lt. Col. West needs our help today.
Just ask yourself this question. You are in the military and someone you love like your daughter or son is in danger of getting killed. All you have to do is scare a terrorist to save them. Would you do it? You'd be guilty of violating the Geneva convention, but you would still do it wouldn't you? That's what Lt. Col. West did.
Situations like these are the reason the Secretary of Defense is given the power to intervene and stop the prosecution of Colonel West. They're also the reason the power of the pardon is given to Governors and to the President.
This is not warfare in World War II or I. Remember, this is a war on terrorism, and personally, I don't think the Geneva Convention applies. I would certainly want my commander to do the very same thing as Colonel West if it was my son's life on the line. Simply put, he deserves better than this.
Please go to the link below and sign the petition to Sec. Rumsfeld asking him to have the charges against Lt. Col. West dropped.
Our nation is at war. This isn't the time to go wobbly about getting tough with terrorists.
Please join me and ask Sec. Rumsfeld to drop the charges against Lt. Col. West. Sec. Rumsfeld may receive criticism if he intervenes on behalf of Lt. Col West. We need to let him know that he has the support of millions of Americans. That means forward this to your friends and family too! Every person helps!

Click Here
http://www.millionsofamericans.com/home/west.cfm

 

[lvwhitebir]

Originally posted by John Bishop
So what's the problem, you're asking?
West's firing his weapon was a violation of the Geneva Convention , and as a result, he now faces a court martial for communicating a threat and aggravated assault.
West has been offered a choice. He can resign from the Army immediately, and forfeit his 20 year retirement, or he can face criminal charges which carry up to 8 years in prison.
This is wrong. I just don't believe the American people would have a problem with scaring a terrorist in order to save American lives. I do not advocate pulling out his fingernails or cutting off his toes, but I do not have any illusions that terrorists are complying with the Geneva Convention either.

Did he get vital information? I guess so. Did he commit a "crime" in order to obtain it? Yes, so he should be punished.

I know you want to keep the way US law operates and the way the military operates separate in this discussion, but it's difficult if not impossible. We have a specific process for the two that are identical. In both, the end doesn't justify the means.

So, I can't agree with you for two reasons:

1) We're a party to the Geneva Convention and try criminals based on it. If we violate it, it's a little stupid for us to try to enforce it in the future. Do the terrorists abide by the Convention? Probably not, but criminals don't abide by US laws either and our law process seems to work just fine. Criminals and terrorists have some basic rights that we must abide by or else we fall to their level. Some people already equate our actions with terrorism. Do you want to prove them right?

2) Where do you draw the line on what's a reasonable interrogation technique? What if scaring them with the tactic he used didn't work? What else was he prepared to do? The Geneva Convention defines the line, if we want to change it, change the Geneva Convention agreement.

As far as what the "American people" think, it's typically short sighted and based on emotions. The process of law is to try to remove emotion from the equation and think about the long-term and often unintended consequences of our actions.

WhiteBirch

 

[Karazenpo]

I know where I draw the line. Many U.S. families will have a very Merry Christmas this year because of Lt. Col. West their loved ones won't be coming home in body bags! And that's the bottom line. Fight these barbarians clean and you will lose and many will die and keep on dying, not only Americans but world citizens. Ideals and realities are sometimes, unfortunately, very far apart. I think I would be pretty comfortable having Lt. Col. West leading me into battle, for he puts the lives of his unit first and that's what a true leader is all about. It is often said, 'I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6', I wonder how that cliche came into being. It is obvious the Colonel felt this way about his company. Respectfully submitted and a Thumbs Up ! to Sigung John Bishop for his post.

 

[Disco]

This country has been brain washed into political correctness. We care more about what other countries think of the way we do business, than how we take care of our own. We have people without health care, without food, without jobs, without housing, without whatever. Still our elected powers that be would rather spend, spend, spend on foreign aid that primarily go into the pockets of the heads of the countries were trying to assist, then take care of their own. Now this harming of a good man that did take care of his own. The geneva convention was a well meaning attempt to keep warfare civilized. WAR IS KILLING, THERE IS NO CIVILITY IN WAR. If you have never been on a field of battle, then you would never understand. The really sad part about all of this is that many people in this country (America), still really think that we are the guardians of all that is right in the world. If people only knew how far fetched that once noble mindset is. I fear that this man, Lt.Col West, will become the scapgoat for our showing the world how "good " we are, when everbody knows the vast majority of the world can't stand us.

There is an old saying in the political arena, "A conservative is a Liberal that's been mugged". When we were attacked on 9/11, there wasen't a liberal thought to be found on the political front. Same as in WWII when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. Now because it's not on our front door, it's OK again? The only thing we actually show the world is how willing we are to place one of our own on the alter of sacrifice for nothing more than public opinion.

SHAME on ALL of us for allowing this travisty of justice to common sense prevail.

Someone mentioned the Law. Military law and civilian law are two seperate animals. Look at the confinement of terrorists in cuba to prove the point.

 

[Karazenpo]

Very, very well said, Disco, I salute you. God bless and have a great Thanksgiving!

 

[michaeledward]

When we were attacked on 9/11, there wasen't a liberal thought to be found on the political front.

Rest assured, my thoughts were still quite liberal. Very clearly defining right from wrong.

Lt. Colonel West is the U.S. serviceman who was interrogating an Al Queda operative.

Perhaps you haven't heard, the ruling powers in Iraq are Sunni Muslems. They are not, nor ever have been members of Al Qaeda.

I just don't believe the American people would have a problem with scaring a terrorist in order to save American lives.

I am a natural born citizen of the United States of America, and I object to this action.

We are talking about the 'theatre of combat' and not Main St. USA.

Our rules are good enough for us, but not good enough for all? That runs counter to the 'All men are created equal' equal thing, doesn't it?

Yes the rules of combat are different, but there are still rules --- strange, one of the rules is that you don't invade another country, unless threatened --- from the evidence I have seen, we were not threated. Of the 29 specific items Secretary of State Powell brought before the United Nations in January of 2003, exactly zero of these items have been proven true in the 6+ months since the president has declared the end of major combat operations (which means the war is over, doens't it - sorry that is rhetorical).

Let us also be clear, the United States Military is living and working and sleeping in the country of Iraq. There is an argument that can be made that the person being interrogated was not a terrorist, but a patriot, fighting for the freedom of his country (I am not making this arguement, but there is some validity to it)

Again ... I can understand and appreciate Lt. Colonel Wests desire to reduce the human costs of this engagement. The Ends Can Not Justify the Means. Laws were broken. Penalities must be paid.

Mike

 

[Karazenpo]

quote: Lt. Colonel West is the U.S. serviceman who was interrogating an Al Queda operative.

An excerpt from Mike's post:

Perhaps you haven't heard, the ruling powers in Iraq are Sunni Muslems. They are not, nor ever have been members of Al Qaeda.

quote: I just don't believe the American people would have a problem with scaring a terrorist in order to save American lives.


I am a natural born citizen of the United States of America, and I object to this action.

quote: We are talking about the 'theatre of combat' and not Main St. USA.


Our rules are good enough for us, but not good enough for all? That runs counter to the 'All men are created equal' equal thing, doesn't it?

I say:

Perhaps, in all due respect (and I mean that) you haven't heard but the 19 hijackers of 9/11 were all muslim. It appears to me and many others that in regards to what is going on in the middle east that all muslims are not terrorists but all terroists are muslims, REMEMBER, I'm saying the current problem we are facing now, not historically. Secondly, when I originally started this topic I expressed it to be a matter of politics, then I was swayed by another poster. However, I'm diverting back and here's why. Lt. Col. West is being made an example of by the Army for political correctness. They want to show the world that we are good so everyone will like us, which will never happen anyway. The incident was made public, now they can act on it and essentially use him as a sacrificial lamb or scapegoat. Do you know that these actions in warfare have been going on forever? Why do you think in the begining of this war, pows were taken to Egypt by our forces for interrogation? The answer is simple. Let's just ay it's about Egypt's, 'aggressive' methods of extracting information from prisoners. Everyone knew this, I knew it, why didn't anyone say anything about that? Our government simply turned their heads and let it happen-why? because it would save lives and the end justified the means!I'm not even getting into the CIA, that's can be a whole other post! Now, this same military wants to court martial the Colonel for what? He scared, yes SCARED one of these low-life subhuman cold blooded killers? Poor baby! Because he 'scared him"! Give me a break! These are the guys that fly planes into buildings so they can go meet their 76 virgins!,lol. Did you know that there is talk now about sending pows to Jordan due to their 'aggressive' interrogation methods, I hear no one beating the drum about that? This is WAR and as some one else said in another post on another forum, war is killing. The rules of engagement are not the same as arresting criminals on Main St. USA who have rights under our US Constitiution. If we continue to be soft in these areas and condemn soldiers like Col. West, don't worry about being a natural born citizen of the U.S. anymore because that will only make you a TARGET! And don't worry about the US Constitution either, because if we lose, there won't be one anyway. We'll all be either dead or bowing to Allah. There's a saying that goes like this: "Sometimes to catch a rat, you have to jump in the gutter". If we weren't prepared to do this then we should go home and live in a closet. In all seriousness, Mike, thanks for your responses. To me there is nothing wrong with two opposing sides duking it out!, lol. It leads to a more thorough understanding and respect for other people's prespectives. Have a great Thanksgiving and God Bless! "Joe"

 

[rmcrobertson]

I agree with Michael. In the first place, this nonsense about Sept. 11 doing away with liberals--apparently on the theory that there are no atheists in foxholes--is a beautiful case of what rhetoricians call, "false alternatives." It simply isn't a matter of choosing between loving your country, being pissed about evil murdering creeps, and recognizing reality on one hand, and being a candy-***, America-hating, bleeding-heart fantasy monger on the other. And since many seem to have forgotten, a) politics is more complex than liberal vs. conservative, unless of course you happen to be a right-wing talk show host who gets paid for saying so, and b) last I checked, Americans were SUPPOSED to disagree on important issues.

As for political correctness--in the first place, lefties invented the damn phrase, to make fun of other holier-than-thou lefties. Do you really think that we don't occasionally notice the wacko, smug-from-a-position-of-privilege approach to the world taken by, say, half the sophomore class at UCSC?

And does anybody think that conservatives and right-wingers don't have their own political correctness? Come on--every time these questions come up, the same things get said by people smugly identifying themselves as patriots, and it gets said again and again and again. No thought, no facts, just hostility towards anybody who dissents or even asks questions. (Does the term, "Dittoheads," ring a bell?) If that isn't a political correctness as profound and obnoxious as anything I met in Boulder, CO, back in the 70s, I'll be damned if I know what is.

Sorry. These accusations that anybody who disagrees hates their country and its military really ring my chimes.

As for the Colonel, well, here's the first question: did he violate the UCMJ?

Second question: did he violate the unspoken rule (see Lee Marvin in, "The Dirty Dozen"), and be stupid enough to get caught?

Third question: are the higher-ups and people in, say, Congress once again playing political games at the expense of a good officer's career, or is this guy a lousy officer and this was just the last straw?

Fourth question: how often does this stuff actually happen in Iraq?

And here's an old-fashioned idea: I was brought up to believe that our guys--American soldiers--didn't DO this crap of torturing prisoners. They taught me that we were the GOOD guys, and that one of the things that made the bad guys bad guys was that THEY tortured the helpless, and got what they wanted by any means at all, and ignored international law, the Geneva Convention (can't tell you how many movies and TV shows featuring the sneering evil villain, saying, "you Americans with your foolish, impractical little rules," in one of a dozen accents), and denied every moral rule anybody ever heard of.

I was taught that John Wayne might occasionally go nuts and shoot a sneaking enemy who had seemed to surrender after he killed a young soldier, but that the Duke would never torture anybody.

So our position, now, is that we're just another bunch of guys that throw the rules out the window whenever we feel like it, and do whatever we feel needs to be done to Get It Done? is that the argument I'm reading?

I thought we were supposed to be better than that.

 

[Karazenpo]

Quote from Robert:

"I thought we were supposed to be better than that."

I do know what you mean Robert, I really do but I just can't bring myself around to trade lives, especially US lives for a rule book that no one else goes by half the time. I would have to say I do not feel that way about our domestic situation, we would have chaos but this is an entirely different ballgame. As I stated and others, this is war and very 'dirty' war at that, where the enemy has no problem taking their own life to take yours. Totally different and just like the art of kempo evolves we better start evolving in the way we are handling things or our country and others are going to be in serious trouble in 5-10 years. We have to protect our children and take care of our own. We owe them that, we owe no one else anything. They come first! If I was the one to knock on Mrs. Smith's door to tell her that her son or daughter won't be coming home, I would want to, in my mind, to be able to know and assure her that nothing could have been done that would have prevented that ultimate sacrifice.

 

[michaeledward]

Perhaps, in all due respect (and I mean that) you haven't heard but the 19 hijackers of 9/11 were all muslim.

I think part of the problem is that you seem to be connecting to disconnected things.

A). Criminals hijacked planes and crashed them into buildings.
B). The United States Military invaded a sovereign country.

These actions, and the reactions too them are different. Muslems crashing airplanes into building is a criminal action. Criminal actions are prosecuted in a courtroom, not a battlefield.

That these actions were done to 'terrorize' the public has led us to begin a 'War on Terror' (much like the war on drugs). However, countries wage war against each other (Much like the United States invading Iraq), war can not be waged on a person (Osama Bin Laden) or a word (Terror). There is usually a clearly defined end of a war (treaties, surrenders, toppling of statues, mission accomplished banners). But were we to decide to wage war on a person (We'll get Osama Bin Laden, Dead or Alive) - to date, we have failed by that measure as well.

Question - How will we know when this 'War on Terror' is won?
Answer - We won't. But as long as we continue to contract Halliburton, and Lockheed, what does it matter.

Please don't buy into the invasion of Iraq as a component to the 'War on Terror'. The way to defeat the criminals who commit their crimes as terror is to send the police after them. To send the FBI after them. To send the CIA after them. It will also require the assistance of investigators from other countries. Bombs are not the appropriate tool to win the 'War on Terror'. Courtrooms are.

It is my opinion that the Invasion of Iraq occurred because the Vice President of the United States had a temper tantrum that the citizens of Iraq had not completed the war he waged 12 years ago as Secretary of Defense. It is my opinion that the Invasion of Iraq occurred so that the current Secretary of Defense could move past those photographs of himself and the President of Iraq from the early 80's. It is my opinion that the Invasion of Iraq occurred because Deputy Secretary of Defense Wolfowicz bought into a bunch of crap about the US Military being welcomed to the Country of Iraq with Rose Petals and Chocolates by a power hungry expatriot (Ahmed Chalabi). It is my opinion that the Invasion of Iraq occurred because the current President of the United States believes he has been ordained by the Christian God to bring Jesus' teachings to heathens.

And for all those reasons, I think this War (the one in Iraq, that we started) is wrong. And adding bad behavior to our already misguided actions does no one any good.

Happy Thanksgiving to you too - Mike

P.S. I am also 100 percent against the death penalty, so if Lt. Colonel West is courtmartialed, I would object to him being taken to the gallows.

 

[rmcrobertson]

I see. So we are no better, and shouldn't try to be. They, whoever they are, fly planes into building filled with people, and plead necessity. We get people to do our torturing for us, we plead necessity. We're right, they're wrong.

Sorry, but that's a shameful argument. I've hated it ever since I ran into it in Tom Clancy's "Clear and Present Danger," where he at least had the decency to present the information extracted through torture as dangerous.

Here's an idea you're really not gonna like: the way we're behaving expresses our fear, our laziness, our lack of imagination, not some fantasized necessity. Oh, I've heard and read this before. My Lai? Well, these things happen. Dresden? Perfectly OK. Bach Mai hospital? They asked for it. Tokyo fire radis? We hadda; they asked for it.

Part of the reason those rules are there in the UCMJ, the Geneva Convention, is to protect soldiers. From their being exhausted, their fears, their lazy superiors, from the quite-understandable desire to cut a few corners.

They are also there because, in the long run, terror breeds terrror.

I still say that I thought we were better than that.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Question:

Would it have been acceptable to then fire two mroe shots near his head? or his feet on the ground? Would it have been better to bring in a Dentist and start up the drills? and see if he could handle a root canal without pain killers?

Or should we just hit the whole countrywith everything we got. Say about 100 tactical Nukes. This would stop the loss of Lives from the USA. This was the decision to use them in WWII, to stop the loss of life in the Pacific theater. Where does it being and where does it stop?

I knew guys who had cleared themselves or others in physcial checkups in the reserve so they could continue to collect their checks. They were suprised when they were activated. They knew the risk and took it. Some retired on the spot. The Colonel, knew the risk, and he took it. Should he be shoot at Dawn? No way. Should he go unpunished? No way.

There are two ways to loose to terrorism. One to be so afraid to live your life that the terrorist has won. The other is to become just like the terrorist.


With All respect to those who Serve in the US Armed Forces. I personally would not like to see another person die. I would not like to see another person hurt. I would like to see them all home and happy. Yet, they volunteered. This is the risk they accepted. HAve we gone so far now that all individuals including those with most of the tradition and honor in the US, the Armed Services no longer take responsibility ofr their actions. Has this country gone so far as to no longer take responsibility for its' actions. If so, then what the rest of the world says about how the Evil Empre of the USA wishes to come into their home and destroy their way of life. By ignoring the rules of engagement and teh Treaties we are a party too, we just opent he door for our enemies to do as they pease and for our allies to condem us or to become our enemies as well.

My Opinion, and I do not claim it to be the right one for society.

With Respect
:asian:

 

[Disco]

Lots of opinions and arguments to defend such positions. Hey that's the American way. For the political correct, position points:

1) The end has allways justified the means. Look back, not glance back, but look back thru history. Just this subject could fill an entire thread and then some. Quick examples; The A-Bomb on Japan, Agent Orange in Nam, Not being allowed to bomb Hanoi (Sam City), The Civil war, The Indian wars, etc.

2) Service people volunteered, so what they get is what they deserve? I volunteered to serve my country and DEFEND it. Not to fight on a whim of politicans that have serious alterior motives and who seem to be filling their pockets with blood money. Viet Nam taught us nothing cause were back in the same fix in a different part of the world. Politicans started both wars and controlled both from the oval office, with little regard for the people doing the actual fighting. Read the papers for how they treat vets and take benefits away every chance they get.
Do I think the war is right? NO! Do I support it? I have to because my son is there and I want him to come home in one piece. Most of you guys here at MT are fairly young and have not had the opportunity to get hosed by our system. Good for you and I hope you are lucky enough to avoid it alltogether. Doubtful, but one can hope.

You can defeat terrorism in the courts........ Mabey in front of Judge Judy, but not in the real world. How in the hell are our internal criminal laws going to stop brainwashed religious zealots? We can't even put a dent on our WAR ON DRUGS (LOL).
And just for the record, 9/11 was not accomplished by criminals. It was accomplished by people that worked, educated and trained like an ARMY. Their leader openly declared war on the U.S.
Semantics be damned. You don't kill people with words, you kill with weapons.

As for the ideal, "I thought we were beter than that". If the people of the United States of America ever found out the real truth behind what has happened throughout all the wars we have been in, we would fill the streets with vomit. Watch the history channel sometimes and you may pickup on some minor secrets that slip through the cracks. I find it hard to believe that so many people are that gullible to firmly believe that this country is totally the picture of the good guy in the white hat. They either can't see what's confronting them or they just refuse to accept it. Either way, their living in a false sense of trust and reason. Have we learned nothing from all the politicans being indited for criminal and moral offenses and then being allowed to go their merry way with no repercussions.
It's nice to be able to view people in a gracious light. When I was young, I too looked thru rose colored glasses. Age and lies have remolded my inner person, and my inner person now views everybody in power with a jaundice eye.

Anyway, for all and I mean ALL...... "HAVE A BOUNTIFUL, HEALTHY AND HAPPY THANKSGIVING".......... My prayers go to the families and all who are serving their country. The country who asked them to do a dangerous and dirty job, in the name of JUSTICE.

 

[Karazenpo]

Mike, Robert & Rich, I was going to respond to your posts but after reading 'Disco', I don't have too because I can't improve on the truth. I think everyone who has never donned a uniform outside of a karate gi should listen a little bit to one who has, he's been there and done that and now his son is there. It's so easy to make these 'righteous' decisions when you've never walked in their boots. Kind of like the overweight, non-athletic beer drinking armchair manager of the football and baseball games. God bless and a Happy Thanksgiving to all! Respectfully submitted. PS: Thumbs up to 'Disco' and I thank you and your son for serving. I pray that he has a safe tour of duty and returns home soon.