The English Longbow

[Jonathan Randall]

I remember from reading "A Distant Mirror; Life in the Calamitous Fourteenth Century" by Barbara Tuchman, which takes place during the Hundred Year's war between France and England, that the English Longbow and its wise tactical use made the Continental style calvary charges used by the French Knights unsuccessful.

Any English Longbow Aficionados here? Information? Thoughts?

 

[Kensai]

Wonderfully powerful, effective weapon. Simple, although not strictly easy to use, it would have required some considerable draw strength, it was perhaps used to best affect during the likes of the Battle of Agincourt, where the flower of French nobility was left bloodied and cleaved on a muddy battlefield.

It's long believed that that's where the English/British get their "2 fingered salute" from. If you see a Britisher sticking his, or her index and middle finger up at you, with the nails facing you, they are actually telling you to "f off". This was something that English and Welsh longbowmen used to taunt the likes of the French with, showing them their fingers (that they used to draw their bow with). Had the French have caught them, at the very least, those fingers would have been removed, such was the psychological impact that these men and their longbows had. I'm no technical expert on that weapon, but I do know it was a battle winner in its day.

 

[Phadrus00]

Jonathan,

What a great topic! The English Longbow has a very prominent place in the History of Warfare. It is an amazing example of specialization of troops and the power of technology. Engligh Longbowmen were trained for years and developed lopsided muscles on their drawside because of the power of the bow. Exhumed corpses from battlefields clearly show that these troops skeletons had been altered because of it!

The power of the Bow was amazing as it could pierce even Plate Armour and it is considered by Historians to have been the most powerful weapon on the battlefield for generations and was only surpassed in raw power by the .303 Enfield rifle when it was introduced in WWI.

Kensai wonderful anecdote about the English Salute is true and it took Winston Churchill to turn those two fingers around into the Peace sign to reach detante between the French and British. *grin*

If you are interested I would highly recommend "The Face of Battle:A Study of Agincourt, Waterloo and the Somme" by John Keegan. It is a very detailed decription of the weapons, tactics and conditions that the soldiers experienced. Brutal nasty stuff!

Rob

 

[Blindside]

The power of the longbow has been overstated in many of the histories. The longbow was best employed in a defensive setting, which were what Agincourt, Poitiers, and Crecy wound up being.

If you look at strictly power, and its reputed ability to pierce plate, it was far exceeded by its crossbow contemporaries. Its ability to pierce plate armor is overstated, its best employ was against lightly armored foes, as shown in the Battles of Falkirk and Dupplin Moor.

The longbow didn't break cavalry charges, that is left to obstacles or good infantry, both Crecy and Agincourt had muddy terrain that bogged down both foot and cavalry. You could argue that Poitiers showed that the longbow could break charges, but that was an unusual circumstance and the bowmen heavily outnumbered the cavalry.

The longbow was an effective weapon, but lets not make it out to be the end all for medieval warfare.

Lamont

 

[Kensai]

The power of the longbow has been overstated in many of the histories. The longbow was best employed in a defensive setting, which were what Agincourt, Poitiers, and Crecy wound up being.

If you look at strictly power, and its reputed ability to pierce plate, it was far exceeded by its crossbow contemporaries. Its ability to pierce plate armor is overstated, its best employ was against lightly armored foes, as shown in the Battles of Falkirk and Dupplin Moor.

The longbow didn't break cavalry charges, that is left to obstacles or good infantry, both Crecy and Agincourt had muddy terrain that bogged down both foot and cavalry. You could argue that Poitiers showed that the longbow could break charges, but that was an unusual circumstance and the bowmen heavily outnumbered the cavalry.

The longbow was an effective weapon, but lets not make it out to be the end all for medieval warfare.

Lamont

Don't think anyone has. Yeah, the crossbow was a great weapon. MUCH slower to use, and I'm not sure the range was THAT much better. Think the fact that a trained archer would be able to put 3-4+ arrows into the air in the time it took for a trained crossbowman to put his 1 bolt into a target also speaks volumes. The French in particular hated the English and Welsh longbowmen of the period to such an extent, but you don't see them expressing the same animosity towards English crossbowmen. A weapon is better judged by your opponent, if it's effective, they'll hate you for it.

Also, it was the LAW in England for all males of a certain age to train in the longbow, in part due to it's effectiveness, but also to it's simplicity, and a definate requirement to maintain a ready force of archers. While it wasn't the only weapon of the age, it WAS undoubtedly a major factor, and has featured on the TV show "Decisive Weapons". In fact, many other countries (Mongolia, China etc) have had the likes of the "composite" bow lauded far more than the English/Welsh longbow. Also, that law I mentioned earlier, is still in effect in certain English counties and Shires. Although it's an archaic law, that nobody would enforce, it highlights the importance of the weapon to the English.

 

[Flying Crane]

I recently read a pretty good book about the longbow, I don't remember the title or author offhand, but I'll post it when I get a chance. Very interesting, good read.

 

[Kreth]

It's long believed that that's where the English/British get their "2 fingered salute" from. If you see a Britisher sticking his, or her index and middle finger up at you, with the nails facing you, they are actually telling you to "f off". This was something that English and Welsh longbowmen used to taunt the likes of the French with, showing them their fingers (that they used to draw their bow with). Had the French have caught them, at the very least, those fingers would have been removed, such was the psychological impact that these men and their longbows had. I'm no technical expert on that weapon, but I do know it was a battle winner in its day.

This is an urban legend.

 

[arnisador]

See also this thread, which refers to an hour-long show on this very issue.

 

[Kensai]

This is an urban legend.

I wouldn't be so sure. Speak to any English, European history buff, and they'll state similar reasons for it's development. It's also not just the middle finger, that's an Americanism, index and middle finger together, and I promise you, doing that to a Brit will either get you a smack in the mouth, or at least, the promise of one.

 

[Kreth]

I wouldn't be so sure. Speak to any English, European history buff, and they'll state similar reasons for it's development. It's also not just the middle finger, that's an Americanism, index and middle finger together, and I promise you, doing that to a Brit will either get you a smack in the mouth, or at least, the promise of one.

I wasn't doubting the use of the gesture. The story of its origin, though, is apocryphal.

 

[Kensai]

I wasn't doubting the use of the gesture. The story of its origin, though, is apocryphal.

Perhaps, although it would be a logical explanation.

http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Finger_(gesture)

 

[Jonathan Randall]

During the Battle of Crecy during the Hundred Year's war:

CRECY

"The first attack was from the crossbowmen, who launched a shower of volleys with the purpose of disorganizing and frightening the English infantry. This first move was accompanied by the sound of musical instruments, brought by Philip VI to scare the enemy. But the crossbowmen would prove completely useless. With a firing rate of three to five volleys a minute, they were no match for the longbowmen, who could fire ten to twelve arrows in the same amount of time. Furthermore, their weapons were damaged by the rain that had preceded the battle, while the longbowmen were able to simply unstring their bows until the weather improved. The crossbowmen did not have their pavises (shields), which were still in the baggage train. Frightened and confused, the Genoese crossbowmen retreated after heavy losses, some of them killed by the French cavalry, who thought they were cowards. According to Froissart, the King of France himself ordered their slaughter. The English continued firing as Cornish and Welsh infantry advanced and many French knights fell.[2]
Seeing the poor performance of the crossbowmen, the French cavalry charged, organized in rows. However, the slope and man-made obstacles disrupted the charge. At the same time, the longbowmen fired a curtain of arrows upon the knights. The French attack could not break the English formation, even after 16 attempts, and they took frightful losses. Edward III's son, The Black Prince, came under attack, but his father refused to send help. The latter claimed that he wanted him to 'win his spurs'. The prince subsequently proved himself to be an outstanding soldier.
At nightfall, Philip VI, himself wounded, ordered the retreat. It was a disastrous and humiliating defeat for France."

From Wikipedia

 

[Flying Crane]

OK, Here's a good book on the Longbow: The Bowmen of England, by Donald Featherstone, published by Pen & Sword Military Classics. Not a long book, but I found it very interesting for this topic.

 

[arnisador]

This is an urban legend.

The story also appears in the well-researched "The Weapons that Made Britain" episode that I mentioned previously.

 

[Kreth]

The story also appears in the well-researched "The Weapons that Made Britain" episode that I mentioned previously.

Yeah, well... they've made a whole series of horror movies based on urban legends. Just because a lot of people (or "friends of friends") assume something is true, doesn't make it so...
Many people believe the fable of Washington and the cherry tree, but that is apocryphal as well...

 

[Blotan Hunka]

The long-bow, in terms of accuracy, power, rate of fire and range was superior to early firearms for a long period of time. The advantage of firearms was that anybody could be trained to use a gun and replacements were easy to come by. Trained Archers were a valuable commodity. How does that saying go? "Amateurs discuss strategy, experts discuss logistics"?

 

[arnisador]

Yeah, well... they've made a whole series of horror movies based on urban legends. Just because a lot of people (or "friends of friends") assume something is true, doesn't make it so...
Many people believe the fable of Washington and the cherry tree, but that is apocryphal as well...

You're right. The very existence of "Nightmare on Elm Street" conclusively proves that the professional historians involved in the production of, and interviewed in, this BBC documentary series certainly knew much less about this than Barbara "bowfinger" Mikkelson, who helps run a web site. This despite her lack of sources regarding the gesture and the fact that she merely reasons about what she finds most plausible.

I don't know the truth of the matter beyond what I have heard from the experts--clearly false--and now read at Snopes--clearly true, as it appeared on the web. I'm glad we have this forum to straighten things like this out for me.

 

[Samurai]

Hello All...
I sell English Longbow replicas on the internet and I have done a ton of research into this little weapons. First off you need to totally forget ever shooting a compound bow. People often compare traditional archery with the compound bow and they are totally different animals.

That being said, the adverage "warbow" was from 70-95 pounds of pull. This is TRUE PULL and not some compund bow letting off at 45 pounds. The archers were STRONG men and well trained. As a matter of fact many of the archers were in the field for the money. Kings and courts would pay great sums of money for expert archers.

On the medievel battle field think of the Mounted Knights as the modern tanks (great armor but not adapted to all terrians)....the foot soliders as the pawns (totally expendable)....the archers as the cruise missles of the day.

Some good books to get are
LONGBOW by Robert Hardly
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1558212353/ref=ase_woodlandarche-20/002-5864903-7736068?s=books&v=glance&n=283155&tagActionCode=woodlandarche-20

The Great Warbow: From Hastings to the Mary Rose
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0750931671/ref=pd_sxp_elt_l1/002-5864903-7736068?n=283155

THE HERTIAGE OF THE LONGBOW by [SIZE=-1]Pip Bickerstaffe[/SIZE] (Bickerstaffe made a longbow that pulls over 200 lbs. It is in the Guiness Book of World Records as the heaviest pulling bow).

Thanks,
Jeremy Bays
www.WoodlandArchery.com

 

[Kreth]

You're right. The very existence of "Nightmare on Elm Street"...

Actually I was referring to the "Urban Legend" movies...

This despite her lack of sources regarding the gesture and the fact that she merely reasons about what she finds most plausible.

She listed her sources at the end of the article:

Axtell, Roger E. Gestures: The Do's and Taboos of Body Language Around the World.
New York: John Wiley & Sons, 1991 ISBN 0-471-53672-5 (pp. 33-35).
Keegan, John. The Face of Battle. New York: Penguin Books, 1978 ISBN 0-140-04897-9 (pp. 78-116).
Opie, Iona and Moira Tatem. A Dictionary of Superstitions. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1992 ISBN 0-19-282916-5 (p. 454.

I don't know the truth of the matter beyond what I have heard from the experts--clearly false--and now read at Snopes--clearly true, as it appeared on the web. I'm glad we have this forum to straighten things like this out for me.

Biographies of Washington to this day still contain the cherry tree myth. It's possible for "experts" to make mistakes. Ask Andy Adams.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Hello All...
I sell English Longbow replicas on the internet and I have done a ton of research into this little weapons. First off you need to totally forget ever shooting a compound bow. People often compare traditional archery with the compound bow and they are totally different animals.

That being said, the adverage "warbow" was from 70-95 pounds of pull. This is TRUE PULL and not some compund bow letting off at 45 pounds. The archers were STRONG men and well trained. As a matter of fact many of the archers were in the field for the money. Kings and courts would pay great sums of money for expert archers.

On the medievel battle field think of the Mounted Knights as the modern tanks (great armor but not adapted to all terrians)....the foot soliders as the pawns (totally expendable)....the archers as the cruise missles of the day.

Some good books to get are
LONGBOW by Robert Hardly
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1558212353/ref=ase_woodlandarche-20/002-5864903-7736068?s=books&v=glance&n=283155&tagActionCode=woodlandarche-20

The Great Warbow: From Hastings to the Mary Rose
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0750931671/ref=pd_sxp_elt_l1/002-5864903-7736068?n=283155

THE HERTIAGE OF THE LONGBOW by [SIZE=-1]Pip Bickerstaffe[/SIZE] (Bickerstaffe made a longbow that pulls over 200 lbs. It is in the Guiness Book of World Records as the heaviest pulling bow).

Thanks,
Jeremy Bays
www.WoodlandArchery.com

Nice post and yes the Longbow of old was a great weapon and it is amazing the pull strength that these archers developed. I have a traditional Korean Horn Bow at 70 lbs and it is a bear to pull. Having worked with Japanese Yumi in the same range they are a bear to pull as well. The English Longbowmen must have been incredibly strong. These traditional bows are nothing at all like any of my compound bows which have great let off. (which I like by the way)

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com