The End of Page Three?

[DennisBreene]

There are a host of self image issues that our children deal with as they mature. While most parents are comfortable talking about bullies, being overweight, unpopular and any of the non-sexual issues that arise. I have the impression that many parents (at least in the US) have trouble discussing sexual issues with their kids. I mean open, use the proper terms, and don't skirt the issues kinds of discussions. I raised my daughter from age 12 and it probably helped that I am a physician. I have always believed that it was important to separate the normal, healthy sexual issues from the abnormal, predatorial and unhealthy sexual expressions. I think that the message is something you have to repeat and be as frank as you can. Even to the point of admitting to your child that some things are uncomfortable to talk about. I stressed and believe that anyone's body is theirs to take care of, enjoy and protect. It is not OK, for someone to take liberties with another. Touching, comments and other behaviors that make one uncomfortable don't have to be tolerated and shouldn't be tolerated. It is important that the child knows that she/or he can bring these issues up at any time and be supported by responsible adults. Rape and inappropriate touching of any time are battery and not even remotely acceptable or the fault of the victim. No matter what the circumstances. At the same time, I think that it is important to discuss the good things about sex. That feelings of arousal in oneself or in others is normal and wonderful. Self exploration and masterbation are good outlets and helpful in gaining awareness of one's sexual responses. I grew up in a generation where it seems that masturbation and any hint of sexuality was often repressed by the adults. Women frequently denied that they had ever masturbated, and frequently had/have issues with orgasm. Boys and girls were told they were bad when they touched their genitals in public as opposed to telling them that it would be better to do that when they were in private. It is OK to discuss the pervasive sexual imagery. My explanation to my daughter was that many people find it pleasurable and even arousing to look at erotic images. People pose for these photos for various reasons, some unsavory and exploitive and others because they enjoy it. I tried to make the issues less about sex itself and more about boundries. I think I did OK. My daughter is self confident, self aware and while not a prude, she is alert to the impact her choices in dress and behavior may have on others and dresses in a manner that is comfortable for her. She was also confident enough, at age 15, to ask me to find her tampons while on a trip to Paris when she didn't know how to acquire them herself. I hope this wasn't a digression. I firmly think that teaching our kids what is healthy and normal about sex makes it easier for them to see the differance between that and abusive, predatory or just plain tasteless sexual expression. If they can ask the question they deserve an honest answer.

 

[jezr74]

As requested.


I've shot at least 2 rape victims. I've had the displeasure of dealing with her attacker. No she didn't ask for it. No he was never prosecuted, he even bragged about all the 'fun' they had on a photography forum.


They are wrong.


He's wrong.


Your dad is a hypocrite. He should set a better example. If those pics are wrong, he should get rid of them. If they aren't, he shouldn't suggest they are, or are something to be ashamed of.


Sending the pic isn't asking for it, it is however not smart.



Think of yourself as someone good, of value, of worth. You are you, and that is ok. As to those, they are part of you. Everyone has em, none are the same, and they are all good. Mine are just fuzzier.



No, the reason was he was a predator. Her boobs were not the reason, there is no 'good reason' to molest someone, and I don't care if you're 102, you're age doesn't make rape ok.

Questions answered.

Adrasteia,

Bob has really addressed all your points and I would think it safe to say it would reflect what all people on this board would answer as well.

If you are not sure amount something and have to question it. Your first initial feeling is likely they correct one. If it doesn't feel right, it likely isn't.

 

[granfire]

Bob

I appreciate your conversation.

As i requested the others, please answer the questions from #5 and 11.
the girls in my classes ask them - all the time. Not hypotheticals.
all the time.

explain to the girls at 12, 13, 14 + . or 24 or 37 or 62. There's No sarcasm here from me.

And they absolutely have to figure this stuff out because it's the media ocean they are
swimming in - along with lots of males who may - or may not think and behave like you do. Or Mark.

Many of the guys they encounter (their own age and older) have very different ideas and draw very
different conclusions. And some behave very differently.

I think you called them 'Horndogs' ?? Some are dangerous.

which ones?

Want it both ways. ?

Girls and women are expected to figure out the hypocrisy and resolve the contradictions.
because its our skin in the game.

And figure out - somehow - who is an OK guy for real and who is a predator pretending to be
a decent person. And those are very very good at the pretending.

And 70-80-90% of the predators are already inside our circle of friends, family, guys we know.

Some who talk very convincingly about how much they appreciate how an attractive girl looks.

And we (girls) must make that call absolutley right every single time - no mistakes. Ever.

Oh, and at the same time we/they get these additional messages loud and clear:
- don't ever be a prude - don't ever be a ***** - don't ever look too cheap/sexy,
just look sexy in the way that I like - whic you have no way of knowing,
- don't have any drink any time ever because predators are always around, right?
But its not Bob or Mark or the guys they know. Never. But don't be paranoid.

And at the same time, don't ever ever let it slip, by words or actions, that you have any remote
suspicion that this guy or any friend of Bob or Mark or CC or Dennis might be untrustworthy.
What are you - paranoid ? a *****? a libber-type?
So be very good at concealing how much fear and worry and anxiety you feel.

Even better if you can just push it all away in your head.
Remember that supposed 'denial of danger' - that makes so many male SD?MA teachers
puzzled and frustrated??? Maybe it's a coping mechanism for girls and women .

so please answer the questions. No hypotheticals. No abstractions. No guesses.
I value your thoughts.

I'm hoping for the same from CC, Dennis, Mark, Gran etc.

and many of the girls have have seen those images you'd rather forget.
They would too.

with respect.

I don't think I need to go through every question to answer them.
I think I covered all of that previously.


A friend of mine was raped by her older brother when she was a mere child, 3 or 4 years old.
I am pretty sure she did not ask to be brutalized, nearly drowned.
Along with a host off other craziness, her judgment was completely destroyed, causing her to marry a guy who took her to a cemetery on the second date. 20 years of abuse followed.

Somewhere I think was a date rape mixed in after she finally divorced....then falling for a guy who did not abuse her physically, but was a cheat.

Her words: Child molestation destroys boundaries.

You know the answer to all of your questions: No, it is not ok.
It is not a woman's fault, nor her request to be raped.
it has nothing to do with clothing: In days past it was scandalous to show ankle. Now it's mid rift or buttocks. Ideally walking down the street naked should not be 'asking for it'

And you know as well as I do that it is an excuse for their own actions. Without consequences the lines get ever more blurred. People having (more or less) society's permission to behave badly. If it's raping women and children or hanging black people in trees, it's all the same.

As to suspicions and such....
Yes, if you have been told all your life your judgment is void, you are in danger.
See above. My friend knew better than to marry that creep. Her little voice told her so.
But on paper everything was on the money. respected guy, going to college, church...but he was a grade A pervert.

But it isn't the pictures that are the problem:
we ar in this verkackta loop with our sexuality, we can't get it right to save ourselves:
You can't be naked, you can snuggle with your BF or GF, sex is bad, ungodly, dirty.

Unless you are married.

And then it seems people can't perform without making the act dirty.
raunchy talk, dirty imagery, and who knows what else. The US is really a researchers paradise. Or worst nightmare.

You can't have a healthy sex life when you change in your closet before you meet your spouse in the dark bedroom.


Which reminds me. Last night a dad of a 14 yo told me she was trying to date this guy, two years older than her. Boy texted her 'Are you a V?' makes me want to chaperone the happy couple....I have not made a little boy cry in far too long!

As Terry Pratchett puts it, the urns make the difference if a nude is art or porn. And I am pretty sure it was sarcasm on his side:

Yor daddy likes those pictures?
well, you daddy is a repressed pervert. There is much wrong with that, but the pictures alone aren't the problem, they are but a symptom.

 

[Sukerkin]

I thought I'd had a bash at giving you my views earlier, Ad but in any case my friend Gran has done a pretty fine job of saying what I would have done on the whole - take a bow, Gran .

What lingers in my head is how a girl is supposed to be able to 'read' a fellow and know if he is 'okay' or not. I have no idea - I've been fairly good at reading people through my life and my sense of whether I liked/trusted someone or not has not let me down often ... but it has let me down. Given that, it is pretty important that girls have support in place to help them if things turn bad - people they can call, places they can go. Above all they have to be able to speak out if they are being mistreated - doing that and simultaneously maintaining safeguards against such things as false rape accusations is a whole juggling act that we're not qualified to touch on really.

In the apparently fairly nice circles I move in, for my sisters part of their support network was me and my father. They used to frequent the same rock clubs I did and they knew that if they were ever in any trouble all they had to do was find me. They also knew that if I saw them with some fellow I hadn't seen before then I would be appearing at the table at some point. I am sure that such a sense of brotherly duty to look out for your sisters is still in existence even these days, I would hope it is at any rate. But I get the feeling that the girls that Ad is dealing with are living in a very different world to the one I grew up in and that makes me feel sad and helpless at the same time.

We've gone pretty far afield from the seed I started this with, for what I was after was whether people thought that getting rid of an 'institutional' example of sexual objectification would do much good in starting to alter such attitudes? Or indeed if it was even right to do so in the first place - with the rather darker insights that Ad has pointed us to other questions arise. A bit like the gun ban word-war that is going on at the moment, is it right to 'punish' all for the acts of a few when it comes to sexual misconduct? I have talked with women so damaged by past experiences that they hold all men responsible for what happened to them and not only is that a tragedy for them it is also a vile thing for men like me, who try to hold themselves to decent standards, to know that there are those of the same gender whose actions taint us all and there is nothing we can do about it.

 

[Carol]

I don't have a huge issue with Page 3.

I can't say I like it. My engineerdy brain likes to compartmentalize things. I like like news in my newspaper. I like erotica someplace a lot more intimate. Splashed over a major media outlet is so not the place.

The photography? Meh. Bob Hubbard puts them to shame. Seriously. I'm often captivated by his work, whether it is boudoir or otherwise...he puts a lot of effort in to his compositions, and has developed some outstanding skills at bringing personalities and moods out of his models. Its far more beautiful than the assembly line hack jobs of lighting and post-processing, at least on the few that I saw before I lost interest.

As far as what I would tell young girls, I have several things I would say that I believe very strongly. Whether any would listen to any of it would be a whole 'nother matter.

 

[arnisador]

I don't have a huge issue with Page 3.

I can't say I like it. My engineerdy brain likes to compartmentalize things. I like like news in my newspaper.

Yeah, this is how I think--a place for everything and everything in its place. If i"m sitting down to read the news, the news is what I want.

 

[The Last Legionary]

Yeah, this is how I think--a place for everything and everything in its place. If i"m sitting down to read the news, the news is what I want.

Like this?

http://www.nakednews.com/

?
:roflmao:

 

[granfire]

Like this?

http://www.nakednews.com/

?
:roflmao:

 

[DennisBreene]

That was certainly distracting

 

[The Last Legionary]

You are welcome. I tried watching the weather report but a big front moved in and


well, you know


Hmph.

:lmao:

 

[Carol]

TMI, Mr. K, TMI!!!