The effect of sound

[tshadowchaser]

A few weeks ago I had something happen that sort of ticked me off. It dosen't really matter what it was only what happened after.
One of my students told me that befor the incident ended I let out an explosive breath of air. He claims that people 25 feet away or more jumped and that some (every one was a martial arts student) turned or ducked as if they where under attack.
I don't even remember doing this but evidently I did.
Now all of this being said my question is how much the sound of your brerathing affect objects or people. A kia is used to stun an opponate , can it stop someone twenty feet away, can it breakk a window, or knock down a stone wall?
Shadow:asian:

 

[Chiduce]

I don't think a loud kia could knock a wall down, yet i do feel that it can be used as an effective tool in discouragement of a possible opponent viewing a demonstration. I do not use the loud yell. I prefer the more silent mental interpretation. When i use standard abdominal breathing the kia is heard as a more pronounced yell. While, when i use reverse abdominal breathing, the kia is softer and more reserved to the mental state of being. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

 

[Cthulhu]

I think it's rare to hear a proper kiai these days. An excellent example can be found in my pet peeve, musical forms. Nearly all of the competitors kiai for poop. They sound constipated.

I've read accounts of samurai doing kiai and dropping birds from the sky. I'm sure there is some exaggeration here, but the point is, it seems to be something of a lost art in the West.

I'm not saying nobody can do it. I've heard kiai that startled me, and I like to think I've got a pretty decent kiai.

I think with kiai, just like general martial arts training, you get what you put into it.

Cthulhu

 

[GouRonin]

I think it's very important for my opponent open their mouth and Kiai very loud.


It makes it easier to knock them out.

 

[Turner]

I don't Kiai that much any more because I am no longer taking the traditional arts that require it and the silent Kiai is better for me... But when I am in a school that requires a Kiai, but doesn't actually teach it, I get very annoyed. I was watching a form competition on ESPN late one night and I just wanted to smack these people over the head because their kiai was like 10 seconds long and while it was loud it wasn't an actual Kiai. I don't think that mine is all that great, but it was a satisfying experience when I started taking Shorinji Kempo and was quiet until told repeatedly to Kiai and when I finally did everyone in the class jumped.

Almost every culture has some form of a battle-cry/spirit shout. Why? Because they are effective at striking fear into the enemies heart. It causes the weak to tremble and the cowards to flee. I don't know about bringing birds down or busting stone, but I've seen some strange things in my relatively short life so I wouldn't doubt it if given the right circumstances.

 

[Damian Mavis]

"I think it's very important for my opponent open their mouth and Kiai very loud.


It makes it easier to knock them out."

Damn you Gou! I'm crying I'm laughing so hard! You have no respect for traditional martial arts but you're still funny. First I read the "I like it when my opponent kicks high so I can kick him in the crotch" post and now this. Ok ok ok! If someone is going to take their martial art so seriously that they don't actually learn to fight then they deserve your jokes but give some of us the benefit of the doubt! Sheesh I've been in a street fight were I shouted out a loud Kia while knocking him out with a kick to the head! A double wammy from the traditional martial arts!

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[GouRonin]

I have a lot of respect for the traditional arts. I have little to no respect for those who are ill informed about what they are doing but tout it as the best thing to do. We all know them. They say "Do this." but have no reason or a crappy reason why. Either that or, "My instructor told me to."

I never said that a kiai won't help you get focused or will be detrimental to a kick. What I am saying is that many peope do it with a wide open mouth. This allows the jaw to be driven up into the base of the brain and gives a greater likelyhood of being knocked upconscious due to concussive shock.

Many boxers are told when they start their mouthpiece not only saves their teeth but it allows them to keep their mouth shut and avoid concussive shock or minimize it. Many new mouthpieces are developed based on this. (see www.wipss.com)

The second thing that a mouthpiece teaches is proper breathing. A kiai that many karateka do simply is crap. It allows for improper breathing that does not allow for maximum potential delivery of power. "Ooss!" is close to what breathing should be but even then most don't do it properly. The words itself is not the key but the structure of the breathing is.

One thing that has always impressed me with many Kenpoists is that they do not kiai but they grunt, hiss, and growl. Sadly, as the art spreads it seems to be reverting to the other methods of breathing delivery.

You can find some info on breathing methods in Ed Parker's Infinite Insights book one, (Although I think he did not go in depth enough on this) and Systema is a wealth of information. Failing that go down to your local boxing gym and watch what the good fighters do.

 

[Damian Mavis]

Yes I agree with you completely Gou but I'm a little disappointed that I'm not laughing my *** off right now. You forgot to type something funny! Guess I'll have to get my chuckles rereading your dog philosophy.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[GouRonin]

Bow Wow?

 

[Damian Mavis]

Hrmm.. that lacks your usual wit...but I'm trying to laugh!


Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[arnisador]

George Dillman is teaching kiaijutsu in his seminars now. The sound "kyu" is for downward directed techniques, "sho" is for upward directed techniques, etc. There is, he says, a different sound for each organ and I believe each direction of attacking it as well.

 

[bscastro]

Can you explain this a little more? Sounds complicated and confusing. Thanks.

Bryan

 

[TangSooGuy]

Well, in TSD, the kiai is called a ki hap- same thing, I'm just more comfortable with that terminalogy so it is what i'll us to post here.

I know for a fact it can be effective. I was sparring another black belt in class one day and he was about to land a back kick to my stomach. At the speed he was moving and the position I was in, there was no way I could have eluded or blocked it before it hit me. Instead I did a loud ki hap, and he simply stopped and put his foot down. The ki hap, used correctly, can be a valuable psychological tool.

As for breaking windows and walls, no I dont think that could be done, but I have heard a ki hap or two from some of the senior masters that quickly silenced large groups ( 200 +)

 

[Shinzu]

i believe in the ki hap also. for me it is a focus and release of energy and power. i have seen great things come from a strong ki hap.

as for the right way and the wrong way... this could be discussed by many. for me, i ki hap the way that is natural for me. the way that gives me the most out of it. sometimes it is loud, and other times it is soft. the most important thing is that is works for you.

 

[arnisador]

All I know of Mr. Dillman's method I learned from a one-afternoon seminar on pressure points that changed direction a bit into kiai-jutsu. A student of his suggested it to him and he is now a believer. There are different sounds you use for techniques in different directions, he stated, and to different areas/organs. He said that it multiplies the effect of the blow you strike, significantly. The sound "kyu" is made with a down-pointing technique (strike, joint lock, what have you) and "sho" for an up-pointing technique, as examples.

He also alluded to his theory of colors, where depending on what color clothes you are wearing and what color clothes your opponent is wearing you choose different strikes/targets. He said that using both color and sound triples the effect of your pressure point strikes, but that we were not yet ready for the color theory. In fact, he had just explained the sound theory to his black belts in town the night before and some of them were a bit unhappy that this secret was being shared so openly so soon at the seminar.

 

[Dronak]

I don't know. The style I'm studying doesn't use any yells. I bet I've heard or read an explanation of why, but I can't really remember it offhand. I'd imagine there has to be something different enough with our style that we get a similar effect through other means. *shrug* Anyway, I suppose that if you've been trained properly, you could have a pretty powerful yell that could have greater effects than you would have otherwise anticipated.

P.S. -- re: arnisador's last post, for some reason I can kind of see using different sounds for different targets and/or directions of attack, but something seems odd about the color idea. Maybe it's a high level thing and makes sense when you get there, but it seems strange to thing that the color clothes you and your opponent chose to wear will actually have some tangible influence on the fight. *shrug*

 

[karatekid1975]

I don't ki hap either. I perfer "breathing properly". I get yelled at for not using a ki hap, but I still get the same power and effect just by using my "center", so my instructors stop asking me to ki hap.

Like last night. We had a breaking class. Almost everyone used a ki hap to break. I didn't, but I still did all my breaks.

I agree in a real fight, it can startle your attacker, but I don't believe the screaming that goes on these days in touries and demos. That's not a ki hap.

 

[bscastro]

He also alluded to his theory of colors, where depending on what color clothes you are wearing and what color clothes your opponent is wearing you choose different strikes/targets.

I have to admit that I feel this seems a little complex and even hoaky. Is Mr. Dillman still developing this theory? I don't mean any disrespect, but I think it seems somewhat impractical. The different noises I can see, as it has to do with the internal, but colors? Ah, well. I'd be interested in hearing what this theory is about more in depth at some point.

He said that using both color and sound triples the effect of your pressure point strikes, but that we were not yet ready for the color theory.

Perhaps I will never ready for color theory!



Cheers,
Bryan

 

[TangSooGuy]

Well, I'm not saying I buy into the color theory 100%, but it does make a certain degree of sense.

There have been a number of studies that indicate color has a direct correlation to moods, emotions, etc.

If this is true, it's not really that big a jump to say thatthe color you and your opponent are wearing have some effect on the flow of Ki through your body.

I'm not sure if this is where Mr. dillman is goinf with this, and this is the first I've heard of this theory, but I'm just saying there is some scientific evidence out there to support the idea.

 

[tshadowchaser]

In the had styles that I have learned I was also taught that the "yell"kia,or what ever you want to call it had a different sound depending on the height of the target and the angle the blow was being delivered.
As for the color of clothing, Hadn't heard that one.