The Dislike among Korean arts

[mystic warrior]

I wanted to pick on two arts and see what you all thought about this.

I have a background in hwa rang do, and I have friends that training in kuk sool. And some of the things we do in our respective trainings are some what the same maybe done at diffrent times. Like the training with the fan, you see that in kuk sool won alot and I have been told that it is taught at 3rd dan. As well as it is taught in hwa rang do in 3rd dan.
So if these 2 wonderful arts have alot in common.
Why can't the 2 founders get over themselves and not hate on each other so much.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I would imagine that it is primarily business and that they see each other as competitors rather than friends. Once people go down this road it is very hard for them to change because of things said or done.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

 

[mystic warrior]

True
But they claim in there arts that they are teaching people how to act, but then they pull stuff like this.
You think they might want to act like adults just for a bit.
Don't get me wrong they are both cool arts. But the founders have a little more growing up too do.

 

[shesulsa]

As much as we may wish what we want, there is just no way of knowing all there is to know about a history between two people when we are neither of them. We can only rely on stories told either by the people themselves or others who were there and even these are subject to a person's experiences, feelings, perceptions or lack thereof.

There has always been and always will be distinct competition between prominent martial artists because we are all human. As curious as we can become about these matters, it is still best if we keep our noses to our own books and work towards another ideal. Perhaps one of unity?:idunno:

 

[Paul B]

That's an interesting question..and one that has caused the KMA a ton of grief over the years.

As far as I can figure out,in the days of post-occupation Korea..times were tough. People fought,killed,joined gangs..etc just to get enough money for food or other necessities. The "tough guys" got the power and money,while the so-so guys either joined up or shipped out.

Enter a bunch of young hot-heads who were damn good at MA..mix in business (MA) and politics,and we have the state of KMA today.

I have recently read an interview with our GM,Seo,In Sun..and he's pretty much saying how much of a shame it was that none of them thought to work together for the future good of KMA. Pretty cool little interview. It's the first time I've seen anything from a senior in print saying "Hey..this state of constant rivalry pretty much sucks..and I'm going to do something about it."

Link to interview.

 

[Dusty]

hi Paul. missed you in Texas this weekend. we travelled down from the great white north to gm Seo's seminar. fun was had by all. what peaks my interest with this thread is the 'history' of all the gm's and their organizations. we all know the 'history' of joo bang lee and in hyuk suh and their claims to who they trained under. i sat down saturday night with master steve seo for about two hours and i finally asked him about everything that his uncle claimed. he said that with all this being in his bloodline, he asked his father about it as well. i will leave what his answer was between me and him as i dont want to put words in his mouth, but his answer which was the truth from his fathers mouth pretty much sums up a lot of the problems with a lot of the korean martial arts. everyone wants their training to have come from some mystical and amazing lineage and wont admit to where it truly came from. gm seo credits a lot of his training from gm choi and the rest came from cross training with a lot of great martial artists and the rest he figured out on his own. he does not make claims of some great and secret monk or having his knowledge passed down from generation to generation. and that is what makes him an amazing grandmaster. he gives credit where it is due.
there is a reason why you find the same requirements at the same levels....

 

[mystic warrior]

So it kind of dosn't matter what I study if it were korean. Because it is all pretty much the same thing then. If that is what you are saying.

 

[Dusty]

i wouldnt quite go that far, but what i am saying is that kuk sool, hwa rang do, hanminjok hapkido and even the form of hapkido that gm west and his group follow all have the same roots. i havent studied any of the other styles of hapkido so i cant comment on them, however, the styles listed above all come from the same root, have the same theories and have a lot of the same curriculm.

 

[Paul B]

Dusty KJN,

I sure am miffed I had to miss that seminar..as far as I know that's the only one GM Seo is doing in the US this year. Grrr. I am looking forward to November,though.

Mystic, What Dusty meant was Kuk Sool Won and Hwa Rang Do,and even styles of Hapkido have their base in the same root technique..some even in the same Dojang. While it's a given that you'll see a different emphasis on any given technique..even among the same Kwan or in the same Org..the Arts themselves have enough different nuances that make them distinct.

So no..it's decidedly not all the same.

 

[matt.m]

In my class there is a dan from Jim Wests hapkido, named James Williams. Nice guy you would like him. Good technique, great personality. Anyway, he told me that Jim and He Young Kimm "Worked closely together" for a period of time.

He Young Kimm was teaching martial arts at Southeast Missouri State University when my instructor, Charles Hildebrand was a student going to Cape. Anyway, Kimm helped bring Lee H. Park to Cape Girardeau to be employed by the University. After a while Kimm left. At one time Lee and He-Young were good friends. Kimm went on to Kuk Sool and Lee carried on Moo Sul Kwan from Korea over to America.

Now that I am done with the backstory.......I have been James Williams partner for the last several weeks. A lot of his son mok soo and eui bok soo are very similiar to Moo Sul Kwan Hapkido techniques that Won Kwang Wha taught Lee in Korea.

See, there was a reason for the backstory. It was to see how they all fit together and give basis for reasoning.

However, they are in no way the same technique, like Paul mentioned: "Close with subtle nuaunces that make them subtly and distinctly different."

You would have to see in application and perform the differences to understand this entirely.

James himself has told me that for clarification purposes that "Jim West's system falls more closely to Kuk Sool than it does Sin Moo, Jung Ki, or with Bong Soo Hans system."

 

[Dillon Hall]

True
But they claim in there arts that they are teaching people how to act, but then they pull stuff like this.
You think they might want to act like adults just for a bit.
Don't get me wrong they are both cool arts. But the founders have a little more growing up too do.

I do not see how it is up to us to say what is appropriate for our seniors to do/not do. In my art (Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan) it would be considered unbelievably rude to talk of the Grandmaster or any senior for that matter in this way. I am not trying to correct you, only trying see why you talk about your seniors this way.

 

[mystic warrior]

To answer your question.

I have been and doing martial arts for I would say all most 20 years.
I have seen things from all kinds of diffrent people. And they were all seniors. Some good and some not so good. What we as students of the arts.
And yes even seniors are students, because they should want to grow, if not as a marital artist, but as a human being.
Just because you have a belt on your waste, does not make you a better human being than me or anyone else for that matter.
And from what I have seen in korean arts as well as other arts.
Is a real lack of sharing and more so ego from those that say that they have gotten to a higher level. And I know no on is perfect, not me, not you, and not even them.
I respect training, truth, honor, respect. And very, very little ego.
And I hate back stabbing and he said she said in the arts.
I understand that it happens in all arts.
And no one is better than any other.
However
For those that are showing a way to act and conduct themselves.
They should act like it and not pay lip service.
Other wise they are no better than the other instructors they claim to not like.
Plus what a lot of people do focus on is that alot of the old school masters were friends at one point.
But then ego got into it and messed it up.
Now before you go and say that I should take care of my own.
I am.
But these people are not gods, they are just like you and me.
They just have been doing it longer than you and me.
I hope this helps you to understand where this post was coming from.

 

[MALibrarian]

Very well said, Mystic Warrior.

I've always seen respectful questioning as a virtue to be cultivated in the martial arts (not to mention the world at large).


"The more pity that fools may not speak wisely what wise men do foolishly."
-Touchstone the Clown, As You Like It, Act 1 Scene 2


After reading King Lear I decided that I really wanted my own fool, so I try to cultivate a class off them. (note: "Fool" in the shakespearian sense, not the modern sense). I really prefer that my students and my seniors question me on anything related to class or what I teach in it. It helps me become a better teacher, a better martial artist and, ultimately, a better person. There are times and places when questioning may or may not be appropriate (interrupting a class may be disrespectful to the people who have come to train), but the questions themselves are not verboten, nor should they be.

 

[Dbn paul 35]

great thread, as a kuk sool won student I have heard many stories about the birth of modern kuk sool won and the similarities between kuk sool and hapkido, that said I have gleaned much information from this thread, kahm sa ham needah. Dbn Paul.

 

[matt.m]

Funny, He-Young Kimm left Moo Sul Kwan to be the head of Kuk Sul. he and GGM Lee H. Park had a falling out of sorts. However, at my hapkido class we have a guy name James Williams from JR West's lineage come and workout with us on Thursday's. His Kuk Sul hapkido is good.