The destination? Or the journey?

[Brandon Fisher]

I see it as the promotion is part of the journey

 

[Ceicei]

So what you're saying is there's nothing wrong with my focus being the promotion for a given length of time? I mean, I keep hearing the journey is all that should matter and I'm saying for the most part that's true, but not all the time. You're saying this is normal and should be expected? That would be great if it's true, but that's not what I'm hearing the masters saying. So which is it? Am I right (or normal) in what's happening to me and should embrace it from a learning point of view or am I just feeding my ego? I don't WANT to focus on th belt. All I'm saying is, I'm in no way afraid of of it, I just can't control it. You're telling me that's not wrong.

BTW. still learning. Thanks for taking the time to clarify this for me. If I haven't said I appreciate your efforts, let me do so now.
MartialIntent. You always have a way of painting things so I can understand it. Maybe I'm not wrong or unusual.

It is human nature to want to work for something. "Getting a belt" is not wrong. It is a marker of where we are and where we want to be. Aiming for the next belt is ok; it just should not be the SOLE focus. The goal helps us define the path--the process on the way is where we truly learn the stuff.

- Ceicei

 

[Gemini]

It is human nature to want to work for something. "Getting a belt" is not wrong. It is a marker of where we are and where we want to be. Aiming for the next belt is ok; it just should not be the SOLE focus. The goal helps us define the path--the process on the way is where we truly learn the stuff.

- Ceicei

That makes me feel better to hear it, because it says that my thinking is more common than what's been relayed here. But it's contrary to what my seniors have been saying. After all, it is a destination. So would it be fair then to say ones goal SHOULD be the journey, not the destination, but sometimes along the way you'll find the destination to be the goal and don't get your undies all bunched over it 'cause it's normal on the journey?

 

[MartialIntent]

That makes me feel better to hear it, because it says that my thinking is more common than what's been relayed here. But it's contrary to what my seniors have been saying. After all, it is a destination. So would it be fair then to say ones goal SHOULD be the journey, not the destination, but sometimes along the way you'll find the destination to be the goal and don't get your undies all bunched over it 'cause it's normal on the journey?

Gemini, I agree with this assertion and also comments from CeiCei but if the question is "what motivates you more with your own training?" [destination or journey] I'd still believe from my own experience that the folk who'd opt for "journey" alone are more likely to be the ones that turn up to training out of habit rather than with an intent and focus *on the bigger picture* of their martial arts - and I'm not just talking about gaining the belts. I'm not saying these guys don't put 100% effort into techniques but I feel that focussing too much on the journey can make training into a piecemeal affair.

Of course I agree that jumping straight to the finish, results in - and stems from - the "belt factory" mentality but I'd maintain that the answer to the original question must be BOTH journey and destination as equally important.

You're spot on - it's a view regarded as enlightened that the journey is everything. I think -without wanting to sound antagonistic- that this view may to some extent exist because of fear or trepidation concerning what will happen once the destination is reached. And that's a perfectly natural response but it shouldn't obstruct the combined focus of journey AND destination imHo...

Respects!

"The road leading to a goal does not separate you from the destination; it is essentially a part of it." Charles de Lint [yeah, I know it's not Confucius but still...]

 

[Ceicei]

I concur with you, MartialIntent.

- Ceicei

 

[donna]

This discussion reminds me of this poem that I keep in the front of my Martial Arts journal. It reminds me that the journey is the most important Part.



The Story of Life



Sometimes people come into your life and you know right away they were meant to be there, to serve some sort of purpose, teach you a lesson, or to help figure out who you are or who you want to become.
You never know who these people may be (possibly your roommate, neighbor, coworker, long lost friend, lover, or even a complete stranger), but when you lock eyes with them, you know in that very moment they will affect your life in some profound way.
Sometimes things happen to you that may seem horrible, painful, or unfair at first, but in reflection you find that without overcoming those obstacles you would have never realized your potential strength, willpower, or heart. EVERYTHING HAPPENS FOR A REASON.
Nothing happens by chance or by means of good luck. Illness, injury, love, lost moments of true greatness, and sheer stupidity all occur to test the limits of your soul. Without these small tests, whatever they may be, life would be like a smoothly paved, straight flat road to nowhere. It would be safe and comfortable, but dull and utterly pointless.
The people you meet who affect your life, and the success and downfalls you experience, help to create who you are and who you become. EVEN THE BAD EXPERIENCES CAN BE LEARNED FROM. In fact they are probably the most poignant and important ones. If someone hurts you, betrays you, or breaks your heart, FORGIVE THEM, for they have helped you learn about trust and the importance of being cautious when you open your heart.
If someone loves you, love them back unconditionally, not only because they love you, but because in a way, they are teaching you to love and how to open your heart and eyes to things.
MAKE EVERYDAY COUNT. Appreciate every moment and take from those moments everything that you possibly can, for you may never be able to experience again.
Talk to people that you have never talked to before, and actually listen. Let yourself fall in love, break free, and set your sights high. Hold your head up because you have every right to. Tell yourself you are a great individual and believe in yourself, for if you don't believe in yourself, it will be hard for others to believe in you. You can make anything of your life that you wish.
Create your own life and then go out and live it with absolutely no regrets. MOST IMPORTANTLY, IF YOU LOVE SOMEONE, TELL HIM OR HER, for you never know what tomorrow may have in store.
Learn a lesson in life each day that you live. THAT'S THE STORY OF LIFE!! Author Unknown

 

[still learning]

Hello, For a TODAYS THOUGHT...here is the Optimist Creed..PROMISE YOURSELF:

1. To be strong,that nothing can disturb your peace of mind.

2.To talk health, happiness and prosperity to everyone you meet.

3.. To look to the sunny side of everything.

4. To think of the only the best, and expect only the best.

5.To be too large for worry, to noble for anger, too strong for fear, and too happy to permit the presence of trouble.

The Optimist by: The Rev. Paul Osumi

for you Donna (above) and anyone who want this Promise....Aloha

 

[Flatlander]

Honestly, I don't think there can be a right or wrong answer here; this is a very subjective and personal question. At it's very root, the answer to the question, which I believe has already been articulated, will be a reflection of your underlying reason for training.

I imagine that for most people, as has been the case with me, the reason for training has evolved. And so, due to this evolution, the way I'd answer this question has changed. To begin with? The destination. I wanted to become proficient at fighting.

However, as time passed, and my skills developed, I realized that I really enjoyed the time I spent training. Here is where I will diverge from the idea that Martial Intent has put forth.

Having a destination suggests that there is a goal. To be frank, I haven't one (with regards to my training or progression). I don't want to teach. I care not about rank. Because I know my skill will improve with more training, I need not focus on whether or not it does, and thus it needs not be considered.

I just love to move. I love to roll. This is how I meditate. This is how I get back to the centre, how I clear my mind. When I'm getting my *** handed to me by a 240 lb training partner (I'm 155), I'm in nirvana.

So, I have nowhere to go but forward in time. My destination is the next time I train.

Now, Gemini, I completely understand your conflict over this 3rd black testing. You'd rather not focus on a test. Instead, wouldn't it be nice to just train? To focus on that, rather than achieving some standard? To alleviate the pressure?

I believe you can do both, by viewing your test as just another piece of training. If you fail, who cares? The rank wasn't important to you anyway, and you'll have very likely learned something, or improved in some way by doing it. Redefine the test as the journey, instead of the next destination, and enjoy the ride. You'll pass if you were meant to, and fail if you weren't, and in the end, you'll find peace knowing full well that you've not sold your soul to a belt, because you gave up on wanting it, and instead refocused on wanting the experience. If that makes any sense.....

 

[still learning]

Hello, It is interesting how a person who starts wants to learn from someone who has a Black belt or High ranking.

As you achieve a certain level, you look away from the Belts..only wanting to train. Forgetting your roots and the system that brought you to where you are. Belts are only measurements in your system. Not just for you..for others who look up to you as role models and acheivements to follow.

In this world today...degrees (college mean alot), manager moving up to VP"S than Ceo's...just titles. But are needed ,f not who's the leader.

Why except a high school degree,a college degree, or martial art degree?
If you are a mechanic..and chance to earn the title master mechanic by testing? Will you say just want to fix cars? NO need this?

You will still be the same person....easy to stop testing and getting higher rank....this is the easy way out for many of you.....NO responsibilities here. You will still be the same person....others will pass you by...happens all the time.

Your knowledge will lose something ..because you refuse to except the growth of measuement in your system, From the newer students.

"Yep" He has been with a us a long time and is still a (_degree) BB...loves to train...no ambition to be recognize. He's good fighter...but

I could be wrong here....but I have seen this many times...

You will still be the same person....either way...(less recognize by your schools) since no ranking....if you ware a Black belt...Why? you do not believe in this? ....if you do than you care about being seen as a BB.

I think I am going to get blasted here....these are my thoughts only...no one elses's.......Aloha

Those who do not believe in rankings...Please do not ware a belt...? because if you do....than you believe in it.

 

[Henderson]

With all due respect to everyone debating this issue,

:deadhorse
Sounds like it just might be time for some people to agree to disagree.

 

[Lisa]

With all due respect to everyone debating this issue,

:deadhorse
Sounds like it just might be time for some people to agree to disagree.

Good point Henderson, cause in the big scheme of things does it really matter as long as you continue training and enjoy yourself?

 

[MartialIntent]

Hello, It is interesting how a person who starts wants to learn from someone who has a Black belt or High ranking.

As you achieve a certain level, you look away from the Belts..only wanting to train. Forgetting your roots and the system that brought you to where you are. Belts are only measurements in your system. Not just for you..for others who look up to you as role models and acheivements to follow.

"Yep" He has been with a us a long time and is still a (_degree) BB...loves to train...no ambition to be recognize. He's good fighter...but

still learning, I agree with both of these scenarios, however, I'd have to qualify that by saying that although I have a certain admiration for those who train with no explicit desire for a belt, if these "altruistic" students have no specified goal at all, the training becomes meaningless and we're just welcoming them because they're paying dues every month.

I'm not saying the goal has to be the acquisition of a belt or grade, not at all - what I am saying is that there has to be a goal of some sort to focus the mind and the intent, whether that's achieving technical proficiency in the art, or gaining the ability to last five rounds or the confidence to go into the park in the evening or maintaining a resting heart rate of 50bpm - whatever the goal or "destination", surely there has to be one for the journey to have meaning?

Respects!

 

[Last Fearner]

I believe the discussion here has strayed a bit from the original question, but does raise some important related issues. The original question was:

"...what motivates you more with your own training? The destination? Or the journey? Or both?"
(emphasis added).

The answers are obviously personal, and individual. Certainly, one can deduce that all journeys have a destination - - that is where the journey ends. Whether this is your preconceived, intended destination, or not, it will be what it becomes. However, I do not believe that, in reference to Life, and Martial Art training, we should confuse the terms "destination," and goal. A goal is an objective you seek to attain. It might be placed at the end of your journey, or at intervals along the way. You might have several goals, and they may change over time, but, in truth, we have only three destinations: 1. The destination you believe you are headed for, 2. The destination others see for you, 3. The destination where you actually end up (ideally, these should all be the same thing, but realistically, they often are not). This is more of a philosophical point of view than a dictionary definition, for some might say that we reach destinations along the way, but I call those short term goals, check points, or rest stops. The destination, in my opinion, is truly at the end.

As Master Stoker said:

When I hit my destination I'll be dead and of course hopefully burried.

(Excellent insight, Master Stoker!)

When I posted my first comment with the story of the young "Karateka" seeking training, I adjusted the topic to "where should your focus be," instead of the original, "what motivates you." One can be "motivated" by anything, and there is no right or wrong answer there, but it is interesting to hear what each of us says is our motivation. However, if some of us are trying to answer what is "most important," or "where should your focus be" then this relates to a different context altogether. This is why the "master" in my story said, "When one eye is fixed upon your destination, there is only one eye left with which to find the Way."
There is nothing wrong with being aware of your destination, or setting goals along the way, but many people focus too much on where they are going, and stumble over the obstacles at their feet. Some people have both eyes on the destination, and navigate blindly.

To Miles, I believe you are very wise in your decision to detach yourself from the importance, and distraction of the rank for the moment. If this is where you are in your journey, then this is the experience that you need right now. Years ago, when I was a young instructor (3rd or 4th Dan) I would have said, "what a fool," and tried to convince you of the importance of testing, and how you should look at it differently, or not be afraid to promote. However, the guidance that I have received from my own Grandmaster, has taught me to allow a Black Belt, such as yourself, to discover certain lessons at your own pace, and encourage you to take this inward journey.

I believe you value the rank, and understand its importance, but you must shed yourself of its attachment for the moment, focus on the journey without any eyes on this short term, external goal, and seek the wisdom of a true Martial Art student. Then, when you are ready, I believe you will re-align yourself with testings to accept the rank in the right context. I do not believe you are disrespecting the belt rank, or the concept of promotions by taking this opportunity for self discovery.

In general, to everyone, I believe it is clear that all journeys have a natural destination, or end, but a "journey" without a "planned destination" is aimless wondering with no purpose. This can exist in one's life temporarily, but for too long can risk a life without rewards, or purpose, and might hold disappointments for the individual upon reaching the end.

I'm all for walks through the forest at dusk but then my walk in the forest becomes the destination. I may set out to walk idly through the forest but that's still where I aim to be.

MartialIntent - - I believe this to be the most profound statement made here.

Maybe I'm missing the point but I fail to see how journey alone can be the main motivating factor on our martial arts journey.

Perhaps you have not missed the point, but stated the truth in an obscure fashion. The Journey is the destination. What lies at the end is vacant - - void, without the experience of the journey. What you do becomes, what you have accomplished. The journey becomes the most important thing because, without its content, you have nothing in the end. The worth of your destination, is the vaue of the sum total of your journey. What motivates a person is an entirely different issue. I applaud you for the fact that you have received this insight (whether it is totally clear or not).

This is my perspective!
CM D. J. Eisenhart

 

[MartialIntent]

I just love to move. I love to roll. This is how I meditate. This is how I get back to the centre, how I clear my mind. When I'm getting my *** handed to me by a 240 lb training partner (I'm 155), I'm in nirvana.

Flatlander - another great post! I'm not trying to play with semantics or be pedantic [and apologies if I sound that way] but for me, what you've just said - that's the "destination" right there! What you're saying is that these *are* your goals: belts and rank are fine -you take it or leave it, it's all the same- but you like to move, roll, be exhilarated by throwing yourself into the action and I totally agree and concur 100%. These are your defined goals and this is your motivation for continued study of your art. Without these goals, you'd be turning up to sessions and simply going through the motions - the journey in your case will be becoming skilled enough to enjoy this practise and the destination is the sparring / practise itself. Again, I'm in no way wanting to put words in your mouth! :asian:

By the same token, I think there's much implicit and unspoken derision towards those for whom the rank *is* the destination. As we progress through the years we may see rank as being of lesser importance, fair enough - but I'd have to say, for me, there's also an unpleasant and pervasive pseudo-eastern attitude that to aspire to belt or rank after shodan or nidan or whatever implies one is less enlightened an in many ways condemns such a practitioner in the eyes of his or her peers as being of inferior mind. Well, I still firmly believe that if rank is one's destination then much better that than walking for years on an aimless journey.

Respects!

 

[BlackCatBonz]

what is rank anyway?
If you desire rank, you desire recognition.
if you desire recognition, you most certainly have a destination.
Almost any human being out there desires some sort of pat on the back from their peers......it makes us feel good.

But the doing is just that......everyone has to "do" in order to get there, regardless of whether or not they were trying to get there in the first place.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

the journey, with the destination kicking in to add some intensity as new ranking approaches. i'm at the 'baby master' levels these days, so my grading tests are years apart.

i've settled into a kind of cycle where i maintain for a year or so, then explore for a couple of years, then get told i'm testing in 18 months and sort of explode.

 

[KenpoBruce2006]

The journey continues until you depart this earth, if you want it to. Otherwise you might as well sit down and wait for the end. I like this particular saying:

Lifes journey is not to arrive at the grave in a well preserved body, but, istead, to slide in sideways, worn and tattered screaming "Holy S*** what a ride."

Ciao

KenpoBruce2006