F
Fumanchu
Guest
Quote: " I see where your going with the lever idea, however you don’t have to have your leg behind them in order to catch their center and even throw them, in fact you can throw them backwards with no contact except at the point of the throw with your hands or arms. In that case there would be no lever, you simply need to find their center and get under it. Your not so much putting pressure against their center as you are underneath it, or from either side of it."
Picture a triangle. You’re line of force f is the hypotenuse (the longest side of the triangle). The force pinning the person’s foot down x= f * sin a and the horizontal component of the force is y = f * cos a. accordingly you are getting the person to pivot on their leg and sit into empty space.
Quote: "Ok you may use your footwork to try and break contact, but what I'm saying is that a skilled fighter who trains hard on "feel" and staying in contact or "stuck" regardless of your direction will move with you, they will stay in contact even when you try and break contact. That’s a major principles that’s trained with sticking is how to move with them and stay connected. I'm not saying you will never be able to get away but you can't just decide to break contact and step away, just like you can't decide they aren't going to hit you and stop every attack they throw. You don’t have to be instantaneous, someone with good feel will feel your center or energy moving back sometimes even before your body makes its first moves. You don’t need a new approach to see a new "set of circumstances" you make your own new set of circumstances will maintaining contact. Its simply something you don’t understand."
Like I said before there are no guarantees, although we train to succeed there are times when we fail.
Quote: "So will you answer my question? You said, "If they are better than you, they will beat you". You said that was a mantis principle. Is that one of you guy’s principles?"
Yes if you’re fighting against someone with the strength of Superman + speed of the Flash + cunning of Batman + 100% protective shield of Green Lantern + water breathing ability of Aqua Man (thought I’d cover the base incase you say we’re fighting underwater) then I think you’re screwed. Hopefully the person you fight against does have some weakness you can exploit and that you have a comparative advantage in some department.
Quote: "That’s what I thought. Mantis forms deal with whats in the form. You are creating big holes in the form saying the next move requires something thats not in the form at all. Thats ridiculous. There are no "tactical retreats" in the first line of bung bo, sorry its simply not so. Yes, you need to focus on failed or missed techniques, and bung bo does that, but not on the failed techniques of things that aren't in the form. If the very first strike in bung bo misses or is blocked the next move is still correct, but not if they don’t attack or move forward, if they don’t then you can deviate from the form in a fighting situation and move forward, or move to another attack, but the form deals with whats in the form, you can't add imaginary technique to the form and say they are needed to complete the form."
I’m talking about what you do in application. Bung Bu doesn’t cover basic things that you’d already learned. You seem to disagree with me in the beginning of the paragraph and agree with me in the latter part.
Quote: "True, there isn't anything else to worry about if you knock them out with the first punch, but mantis isn't simply about failing, even if that first punch lands you still follow-up and move in and stick. If they block the first punch you move in and stick as well. You simply don’t stop at one punch regardless of the outcome of it. You should already have made your second or third attack before you even realize if the first punch knocked them out or not."
Sure of course if you can continue landing punches then do so. Mantis form does not teach you to do 10 continuous straight punches does it? But you do that in real life because this is basic technique that you have learned before mantis. Like I said before mantis puts you in better position to do those punches.
Quote: "Its not possible at all, not if your moving back or against your energy. Sure moving to the side or yielding or something is very plausible, but moving forward an then in the middle of that move change and move backwards all in the time it takes their punch to reach you, or actually half the time because they already started it when you decided to move backwards. Thats simply not going to happen, if you think it does, you will be in for a rude awakening. Changing direction is one thing, but your talking about reversing direction, different thing. "
If the way you move is only forward and back then I agree it’s impossible. But you can always determine which parts of your body are moving forward and backwards or remaining stationary in space. So you’re saying that you can change the direction of a committed punch mid stream or modify it to a deflection / hook etc.
Quote: "Yes, the defense to an elbow break like that is yielding at the elbow and using it for a strike, thats why you have to practice that break and understand how to position the arm and apply the pressure and leverage onto the elbow. Your only pulling the wrist towards your chest, the elbow is being pushed outwards. See, this creates an unnatural movement in the elbow joint and with enough pressure or "force" will break. If you seriously think that in your amazingly skilled class the elbow break from that position wouldn't work then your fooling yourself. To say any given technique wont work "in my class" is not only arrogant, but naive. I know your afraid to let anyone know where your located, but if you guys ever invite others to your classes, I would love to come and show you what I mean, its really some great techniques and principles that your missing out on. "
Like I said earlier, you’re assuming that the opponent’s punch is only a punch and can only be a punch. We have learned to adapt our movements in mid stream such that there is a blurr between attack and defence. In fact we don’t think about things as being attack or defence. We just move towards the target. In the first few moves of Bung Bu, your understanding has led to one application where as we can apply this at a strategic level.
Quote: " Simply not true again. You don’t have to stop their attack to avoid getting hit. I don’t know what else to say, thats just incorrect.
Now strategy is not waiting around? What is strategy then? Why is waiting a bad thing? Waiting for a precise moment is wrong, why?"
It’s unlikely there will be a precise moment. Yes, strategy is not waiting around, strategy is about creating your openings, waiting is a bad thing because it is passive and the aggressor will more likely come out on top. No you don’t have to stop their hits but can you avoid all their attacks? If you can, then why are you defending as opposed to attacking. Herein lies the paradox in what you say.
Quote: "Are you saying one of the principles in mantis is to throw the first punch?"
Getting your attack to reach the opponent before he does is a key strategy in mantis. You’re going to have to hit him sometime or other, I think now is a good time.
Quote: "Wrong, the techniques of bung bo are no limited to a specific range or distance. Almost every mantis techniques require closing the gap and sticking. There are closer techniques than others, but bung bo contains some very close techniques. However, lun jeet does have some very close techniques, your right, but its most definitely not dealing with the failure of bung bo! In application every technique is inserted into another technique, every form is inserted into every other form."
I’m talking about the first few moves of Bung Bu. Of course in the latter parts of the form we deal with situations when we’re in close having successfully made our incursions. Laan Dzhaat deals with instances when you have stuffed up big time when you’re in close and there’s no time to use footwork to get away. You seem to agree with the insertion of forms within forms, hard to understand why you omit basic punches in Bung Bu.
Quote: "Anyone can modify the path of their attack in mid stream, but not reverse that path with enough time to avoid a punch that is already halfway to your body. Sorry, thats a matrix move and we aren't living in the matrix."
You don’t need to reverse the path of a punch to become a deflection.
Quote: "The first advantage I see if we are going to play "mine" against "yours" is that mine allows for a much deeper and more applicable fighting techniques. Your relies on failed punches while mine continues regardless of contact or failed punches. Your relies on your own force, while mine relies on the movement of my opponents force or energy. Yours rules out valid mantis techniques because "they wont work in your amazing skilled class". Yours deals with impossible body movement while mine stays in line with human biology. We could do this all day, but this isn't a "me against you" thread. WE are discussing mantis principles, lets not get caught up in being against each other, we should work together as we are both mantis practitioners, correct?"
If my punches are successful then I don’t need to do higher level stuff. It’s just a question of necessity. We assimilate information coming from our opponent as I had mentioned to you before. Sure we use our own force but it does not detract our ability to listen. It’s only impossible if your body movement is inefficient. If you can’t change the direction of a failing punch into some sort of block or deflection then it is very difficult to commit 100% in your attack. You would have to toss up between attack or defence, whereas we can just attack, knowing that defence will happen as and when it is necessary.
Picture a triangle. You’re line of force f is the hypotenuse (the longest side of the triangle). The force pinning the person’s foot down x= f * sin a and the horizontal component of the force is y = f * cos a. accordingly you are getting the person to pivot on their leg and sit into empty space.
Quote: "Ok you may use your footwork to try and break contact, but what I'm saying is that a skilled fighter who trains hard on "feel" and staying in contact or "stuck" regardless of your direction will move with you, they will stay in contact even when you try and break contact. That’s a major principles that’s trained with sticking is how to move with them and stay connected. I'm not saying you will never be able to get away but you can't just decide to break contact and step away, just like you can't decide they aren't going to hit you and stop every attack they throw. You don’t have to be instantaneous, someone with good feel will feel your center or energy moving back sometimes even before your body makes its first moves. You don’t need a new approach to see a new "set of circumstances" you make your own new set of circumstances will maintaining contact. Its simply something you don’t understand."
Like I said before there are no guarantees, although we train to succeed there are times when we fail.
Quote: "So will you answer my question? You said, "If they are better than you, they will beat you". You said that was a mantis principle. Is that one of you guy’s principles?"
Yes if you’re fighting against someone with the strength of Superman + speed of the Flash + cunning of Batman + 100% protective shield of Green Lantern + water breathing ability of Aqua Man (thought I’d cover the base incase you say we’re fighting underwater) then I think you’re screwed. Hopefully the person you fight against does have some weakness you can exploit and that you have a comparative advantage in some department.
Quote: "That’s what I thought. Mantis forms deal with whats in the form. You are creating big holes in the form saying the next move requires something thats not in the form at all. Thats ridiculous. There are no "tactical retreats" in the first line of bung bo, sorry its simply not so. Yes, you need to focus on failed or missed techniques, and bung bo does that, but not on the failed techniques of things that aren't in the form. If the very first strike in bung bo misses or is blocked the next move is still correct, but not if they don’t attack or move forward, if they don’t then you can deviate from the form in a fighting situation and move forward, or move to another attack, but the form deals with whats in the form, you can't add imaginary technique to the form and say they are needed to complete the form."
I’m talking about what you do in application. Bung Bu doesn’t cover basic things that you’d already learned. You seem to disagree with me in the beginning of the paragraph and agree with me in the latter part.
Quote: "True, there isn't anything else to worry about if you knock them out with the first punch, but mantis isn't simply about failing, even if that first punch lands you still follow-up and move in and stick. If they block the first punch you move in and stick as well. You simply don’t stop at one punch regardless of the outcome of it. You should already have made your second or third attack before you even realize if the first punch knocked them out or not."
Sure of course if you can continue landing punches then do so. Mantis form does not teach you to do 10 continuous straight punches does it? But you do that in real life because this is basic technique that you have learned before mantis. Like I said before mantis puts you in better position to do those punches.
Quote: "Its not possible at all, not if your moving back or against your energy. Sure moving to the side or yielding or something is very plausible, but moving forward an then in the middle of that move change and move backwards all in the time it takes their punch to reach you, or actually half the time because they already started it when you decided to move backwards. Thats simply not going to happen, if you think it does, you will be in for a rude awakening. Changing direction is one thing, but your talking about reversing direction, different thing. "
If the way you move is only forward and back then I agree it’s impossible. But you can always determine which parts of your body are moving forward and backwards or remaining stationary in space. So you’re saying that you can change the direction of a committed punch mid stream or modify it to a deflection / hook etc.
Quote: "Yes, the defense to an elbow break like that is yielding at the elbow and using it for a strike, thats why you have to practice that break and understand how to position the arm and apply the pressure and leverage onto the elbow. Your only pulling the wrist towards your chest, the elbow is being pushed outwards. See, this creates an unnatural movement in the elbow joint and with enough pressure or "force" will break. If you seriously think that in your amazingly skilled class the elbow break from that position wouldn't work then your fooling yourself. To say any given technique wont work "in my class" is not only arrogant, but naive. I know your afraid to let anyone know where your located, but if you guys ever invite others to your classes, I would love to come and show you what I mean, its really some great techniques and principles that your missing out on. "
Like I said earlier, you’re assuming that the opponent’s punch is only a punch and can only be a punch. We have learned to adapt our movements in mid stream such that there is a blurr between attack and defence. In fact we don’t think about things as being attack or defence. We just move towards the target. In the first few moves of Bung Bu, your understanding has led to one application where as we can apply this at a strategic level.
Quote: " Simply not true again. You don’t have to stop their attack to avoid getting hit. I don’t know what else to say, thats just incorrect.
Now strategy is not waiting around? What is strategy then? Why is waiting a bad thing? Waiting for a precise moment is wrong, why?"
It’s unlikely there will be a precise moment. Yes, strategy is not waiting around, strategy is about creating your openings, waiting is a bad thing because it is passive and the aggressor will more likely come out on top. No you don’t have to stop their hits but can you avoid all their attacks? If you can, then why are you defending as opposed to attacking. Herein lies the paradox in what you say.
Quote: "Are you saying one of the principles in mantis is to throw the first punch?"
Getting your attack to reach the opponent before he does is a key strategy in mantis. You’re going to have to hit him sometime or other, I think now is a good time.
Quote: "Wrong, the techniques of bung bo are no limited to a specific range or distance. Almost every mantis techniques require closing the gap and sticking. There are closer techniques than others, but bung bo contains some very close techniques. However, lun jeet does have some very close techniques, your right, but its most definitely not dealing with the failure of bung bo! In application every technique is inserted into another technique, every form is inserted into every other form."
I’m talking about the first few moves of Bung Bu. Of course in the latter parts of the form we deal with situations when we’re in close having successfully made our incursions. Laan Dzhaat deals with instances when you have stuffed up big time when you’re in close and there’s no time to use footwork to get away. You seem to agree with the insertion of forms within forms, hard to understand why you omit basic punches in Bung Bu.
Quote: "Anyone can modify the path of their attack in mid stream, but not reverse that path with enough time to avoid a punch that is already halfway to your body. Sorry, thats a matrix move and we aren't living in the matrix."
You don’t need to reverse the path of a punch to become a deflection.
Quote: "The first advantage I see if we are going to play "mine" against "yours" is that mine allows for a much deeper and more applicable fighting techniques. Your relies on failed punches while mine continues regardless of contact or failed punches. Your relies on your own force, while mine relies on the movement of my opponents force or energy. Yours rules out valid mantis techniques because "they wont work in your amazing skilled class". Yours deals with impossible body movement while mine stays in line with human biology. We could do this all day, but this isn't a "me against you" thread. WE are discussing mantis principles, lets not get caught up in being against each other, we should work together as we are both mantis practitioners, correct?"
If my punches are successful then I don’t need to do higher level stuff. It’s just a question of necessity. We assimilate information coming from our opponent as I had mentioned to you before. Sure we use our own force but it does not detract our ability to listen. It’s only impossible if your body movement is inefficient. If you can’t change the direction of a failing punch into some sort of block or deflection then it is very difficult to commit 100% in your attack. You would have to toss up between attack or defence, whereas we can just attack, knowing that defence will happen as and when it is necessary.
What you said here makes no sense though. I'm not arguing your theory with you; I'm saying your theory is wrong. There need not be any lever at all. A throw is not "getting the opponent to sit in empty space". There are throws from all directions, and sweeps, and etc. In fact many throws require little contact at all. Youre limiting your throw to only one situational instance. 
