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The Challenge
- Thread starter Master Dave
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-Brian R. VanCise
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In all fairness to ALL parties. You've given the name and location of your school and pretty much "said" that the Tornado school romped on the Kenpo school but only provided a short clip of "your" highlights. There was no introductions that proves who the opponents were or anything of the sort.
Will you please give us the name and location of the Kenpo school that the Tornado school defeated?
Cruentus
Grandmaster
Well, you see, the fight I saw was between Sensei Bruce Leroy and Sho-Nuff,' and they were fighting over who was the master....
Oh wait... you ment the other clip. Sorry 'bout that; carry on..
All joking aside I lived through the days of those dojo wars and there was nothing funny about them. Blood and broken bones where all to common. The winner was whom ever was able to walk out and sometimes that did not happen as all parties ended up in the hospital.
Now you can make all the fun of such activities you want but we did not have 5000 plus instructors back then claiming to be grandmasters/headmasters/etc. Schools where closed many times if the instructor could not defend the school. Folk back then fought to win the fight not a trophy.
If schools are starting to challenge one another once again it can be deadly serious business and any such challenge should be looked at carefully and maybe a common ground for some type of rules can be found. If not then better get your insurance paid up and expect visits from the local law enforcement agencies before long
Flatlander
Grandmaster
No kidding.
Honestly, I have to question the integrity of the people responsible for these "dojos". First and foremost, what example does this set for the students? Secondly, if this is truely "anything goes", how does the 'teacher' feel when one of their students gets maimed or killed because of their (the teacher's) complicity in the violence?
Further, what does it prove, and to whom? To me, from here, it indicates a complete lack of respect for the student body, dishonour to the artform, insecurity, and an over-inflated ego.
What a shameful idea. The school "authority", or head instructor (I simply cannot willfully use the term "master" here, it's completely inappropriate) is guilty of reckless endangerment, and should be held criminally liable for any and all injuries resulting from such an occasion. Absolutely pathetic.
Cruentus
Grandmaster
Oh... I know that this was a real thing because I remember some of that nonsense back when I was real young.
And... it is a bunch of stupid crap. I see those that participate as a bunch of losers who need a hero, and a purpose in life. Of all the positive value that martial arts programs can bring, it is sad that there are morons out there who entertain this fantasy crap.
And yes, it is fantasy crap.
Why? Because if it really was a "no rules" anything goes thing, then why not do what I do if I was in a "dojo war"? See, if it was me, I'd hide in your home while you sleep, shoot you and your spouse in the face, cut off your head, and have the package delivered to your students the day of the "match." Hmmm... I guess I would win? Good thing for everyone that I don't participate in "dojo wars" huh?
But why isn't that, or something like that what happens? Because, these martial nerds are more interested in posturing and pee-pee waving rather then providing value to the world. See, if there was a real "war" going on where innocent lives need defending, then the strategy and tactics would be far different then "lets meet in some prearranged place and fight like middle school kids." So instead of considering real self-defense or combat circumstances, these people are willing to set up arbitrary circumstances under the guise of "no rules" fighting.
And as I said before, grow the hell up.
If you want to have a real match up of skill, then do so in an organized and safe way under state sanctioned rules (as i originally thought this was until further explaination). Do an MMA tournament. Do it out of mutual respect for competitors, and for the demonstration of healthy competition and sportsmanship and athleticism. Meeting in the way that the video depicted is already matching up in an organized, prearranged way, with rules that are being followed even if not overtly expressed. The only difference is the state sanctioned way is responsible and safe, and the unsanctioned nerdy dojo war way is unsafe, dishonorable, dillusional, and completely dorky.
One way is positive for the martial arts community, and the other is not.
And... it is a bunch of stupid crap. I see those that participate as a bunch of losers who need a hero, and a purpose in life. Of all the positive value that martial arts programs can bring, it is sad that there are morons out there who entertain this fantasy crap.
And yes, it is fantasy crap.
Why? Because if it really was a "no rules" anything goes thing, then why not do what I do if I was in a "dojo war"? See, if it was me, I'd hide in your home while you sleep, shoot you and your spouse in the face, cut off your head, and have the package delivered to your students the day of the "match." Hmmm... I guess I would win? Good thing for everyone that I don't participate in "dojo wars" huh?
But why isn't that, or something like that what happens? Because, these martial nerds are more interested in posturing and pee-pee waving rather then providing value to the world. See, if there was a real "war" going on where innocent lives need defending, then the strategy and tactics would be far different then "lets meet in some prearranged place and fight like middle school kids." So instead of considering real self-defense or combat circumstances, these people are willing to set up arbitrary circumstances under the guise of "no rules" fighting.
And as I said before, grow the hell up.
If you want to have a real match up of skill, then do so in an organized and safe way under state sanctioned rules (as i originally thought this was until further explaination). Do an MMA tournament. Do it out of mutual respect for competitors, and for the demonstration of healthy competition and sportsmanship and athleticism. Meeting in the way that the video depicted is already matching up in an organized, prearranged way, with rules that are being followed even if not overtly expressed. The only difference is the state sanctioned way is responsible and safe, and the unsanctioned nerdy dojo war way is unsafe, dishonorable, dillusional, and completely dorky.
One way is positive for the martial arts community, and the other is not.
Cruentus
Grandmaster
I agree with Flatlander's entire post (posted while I was posting my previous one). I wanted to address this part.
The thing is, usually no one get's killed at these things because they aren't really "battling" under "anything goes" conditions. People should be missing eyes and ears if that were the case, or exhibiting stab and gunshot wounds.
No, it is a bunch of nerds getting together who should be trying to find gainful employment, but are instead pounding on each other in a posturing manner to try to "prove" something, and to try to say "look how tough we are, we fight in no rules fights."
Real war is honorable if one is defending innocents, or doing duty to ones country. Real street battles are honorable if one is defending themselves, families, and society from volent criminals. Real competition is honorable if done in the spirit of sportsmanship.
This, however, is shameful and as you said, 'pathetic.'
OP
Master Dave
Yellow Belt
- Thread Starter
- #29
The thread is getting very much out of hand,
I started the thread because this is the grappling section. From what I understand the details of the events that led up to the Bells taking on the challenge is that the kenpo school went to a tournament which the bell's were persent at and laid flyers down making the challenge. The tornado school is In Detroit as is the kenpo school....and from what I understand not far from one another. Its my understanding that the kenpo school constantly harrassed the tornado school, Bad mouthed them, and finally enough was enough. The event took place outside, on a small platform with .....and get this the Kenpo Schools man being the head ref. the gentleman on stage with the combatants was I believe the head of the kenpo school. This gentleman was suppose to see to it that all was fair and no one got hurt. First up (not in clip) was a student of the bells who easily won his match but the kenpo judge gave the match to his student...next Chris Bell easily won his match but the kenpo judge disqualified him....finally Aaron in green Gi easily dominated his opponant, but fell off the platform...out of frustration the kenp guy jumped on Aarons Back...this was uncalled for and in bad taste....Mind you now, Grand Master (professor) Bell was NOT allowed at ring side or near the platform and was made sit in the audiance....when Aaron got jumped on a fight broke out....this was wrong I agree. It was the kenpo school who confronted the Bells who tried to Ignore them but was constantly confronted by the kenpo school. There was supposed to be rules....but the kenpo school didnt play by them....so everything turned ugly and it turned into a real battle.....the tornado school is Karate (shotokan) and aki jujutsu....kendo and iado....it was the kenpo school who made the challenge and played by only their rules. Im sorry I made the posting...I thought it would be of interest. But it was made light of, and joked about, then turned into a liability concern...Im sorry I brought this to this forum. This is my last posting here.
Peace
I started the thread because this is the grappling section. From what I understand the details of the events that led up to the Bells taking on the challenge is that the kenpo school went to a tournament which the bell's were persent at and laid flyers down making the challenge. The tornado school is In Detroit as is the kenpo school....and from what I understand not far from one another. Its my understanding that the kenpo school constantly harrassed the tornado school, Bad mouthed them, and finally enough was enough. The event took place outside, on a small platform with .....and get this the Kenpo Schools man being the head ref. the gentleman on stage with the combatants was I believe the head of the kenpo school. This gentleman was suppose to see to it that all was fair and no one got hurt. First up (not in clip) was a student of the bells who easily won his match but the kenpo judge gave the match to his student...next Chris Bell easily won his match but the kenpo judge disqualified him....finally Aaron in green Gi easily dominated his opponant, but fell off the platform...out of frustration the kenp guy jumped on Aarons Back...this was uncalled for and in bad taste....Mind you now, Grand Master (professor) Bell was NOT allowed at ring side or near the platform and was made sit in the audiance....when Aaron got jumped on a fight broke out....this was wrong I agree. It was the kenpo school who confronted the Bells who tried to Ignore them but was constantly confronted by the kenpo school. There was supposed to be rules....but the kenpo school didnt play by them....so everything turned ugly and it turned into a real battle.....the tornado school is Karate (shotokan) and aki jujutsu....kendo and iado....it was the kenpo school who made the challenge and played by only their rules. Im sorry I made the posting...I thought it would be of interest. But it was made light of, and joked about, then turned into a liability concern...Im sorry I brought this to this forum. This is my last posting here.
Peace
Kenpojujitsu3
Master Black Belt
- Joined
- May 5, 2005
- Messages
- 1,221
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- 9
You will be missed and the forum will miss the knowledge that someone of your tenure and experience could have brought. Salute and good journey.
Thats no reason to leave. In the public ALL sides need to be presented and along the way, there will be jerks and some of the best people you will ever meet. You take the bitter with the sweet!
No matter your motives, your post was one sided and all parties should be named. Does the Tornado and Kenpo schools know they were put on the net?
Cruentus
Grandmaster
1. Liability? Yes, there is HUGE liability concern, but don't blame it on people from a forum because this is the case. If people are having an "anything goes" fight like the "old school dojo challange days" then what you are talking about is an illegal match. Both parties involved could be charged with a serious crime. All anyone has to do is make a call to Detroit PD and show this footage that you linked. So, nice job.
2. Either this is a match with rules and waivers and all the safety concerns covered as required by the state of Michigan, or it is not. If it is, then you have misrepresented what went on. If it is not, then all parties involved are irresponsible idiots, or at least are behaving as such at the time. Because in the real world, things like lawsuits, criminal charges, injury, and so forth can end careers.
3. There are many ways to deal with rival martial arts schools that don't involve illegal challange matches. LEGAL matches would be one way. Another would be to have better marketing, a better program, and so forth. If they outright threaten or harass students, then a call to the police would be in order, or if due to imminent danger, self-defense would be in order. There are many ways to skin a cat. A school that should be teaching people proper ethics and viable self-defense solutions along with the arts should have understood this already. Both places are in the wrong.
4. If you want to take your ball and go home, then good ridence. You should probably look in the mirror, and ask yourself what you are REALLY upset about, and WHY a thread like this may have "gotten out of hand." There is a difference between putting this up as informational and not condoning the behavior, and thinking that this behavior is the right thing to do. It does appear to be the later based on your posts. And you see, if you don't see anything wrong with the behavior of both these schools involved in a "dojo war," then you don't belong in the self-defense community. If you can't see why people would object to such behavior, or make jokes about such behavior, then you sir are the one with the problem.
Think about it.
OP
Master Dave
Yellow Belt
- Thread Starter
- #33
First let me say this,
The clip was actually given to me by the bells, Its on Youtube.com. weather they placed it on there or not I dont know. I know they said it was the talk of the web. To the best of my knowledge the challenge was suppose to be fair and with rules, weather or not the rules were implicated I dont know I wasnt present. And I only know one side of the story..again I wasnt there. To the best of my knowledge waviers were signed or given out and since the event was held outdoors i would only imagain everything was in order..this was put on by the kenpo school NOT the tornado school so it falls on them to make sure everything was in order. The center man was from the kenpo school. at no time were any one from the tornado school in the ring to judge. It would be up to him and the kenpo school to see to it all was fair and on the up and up. If anything was not in order it would seemingly fall upon the kenpo school, but again I dont know this to be the case.
personally I dont condone such things, It solves nothing and no I do not agree with challenges. Not if its done in bad taste and no rules..again I dont know if this was the case I wasnt present. Your local tournament is a challenge...but done under supervision and qualified judging to ensure safety and fairness. Again I wasnt present. My appoligies to any and all...again I dont condone an all out challenge without rules....again i only know one side of the story and wasnt present. To my understanding flyers were handed out at a local tournament by the kenpo school and words exchanged.....Again i would assume that since the kenpo school printed the flyers, provided the location it would be up to them to see to it all things were in order. I dont know the kenpo school. But would think the kenpo school since it was them who put on the event would of followed strict and fair rules...if this wasnt the case then I would think it would fall on the kenpo school.
I dont want anyone believing I condone any type of unfair challenge or tournament this is wrong. I wouldnt attend or allow my students to enter any competition that was a threat and all out fight, this goes against my beliefs and why I train in martial arts. My personal philosophy is to forgive my enemies, to not want conflict. Since this was the grappling section I thought this would show the importance of diversity and incorporating from other systems to be a well rounded martial artist...to show the importance of grappling either by being able to protect ones self from the ground, or if taken to the ground to be able to defend from this position. Some schools only teach ground defense, some only stand up punch / kick. The Bells are well versed in both areas...this is what i was trying to show.....and Again I dont condone an all out battle without rules...i never would this is wrong. Again I wasn't there.
My sincere appoligies.
The clip was actually given to me by the bells, Its on Youtube.com. weather they placed it on there or not I dont know. I know they said it was the talk of the web. To the best of my knowledge the challenge was suppose to be fair and with rules, weather or not the rules were implicated I dont know I wasnt present. And I only know one side of the story..again I wasnt there. To the best of my knowledge waviers were signed or given out and since the event was held outdoors i would only imagain everything was in order..this was put on by the kenpo school NOT the tornado school so it falls on them to make sure everything was in order. The center man was from the kenpo school. at no time were any one from the tornado school in the ring to judge. It would be up to him and the kenpo school to see to it all was fair and on the up and up. If anything was not in order it would seemingly fall upon the kenpo school, but again I dont know this to be the case.
personally I dont condone such things, It solves nothing and no I do not agree with challenges. Not if its done in bad taste and no rules..again I dont know if this was the case I wasnt present. Your local tournament is a challenge...but done under supervision and qualified judging to ensure safety and fairness. Again I wasnt present. My appoligies to any and all...again I dont condone an all out challenge without rules....again i only know one side of the story and wasnt present. To my understanding flyers were handed out at a local tournament by the kenpo school and words exchanged.....Again i would assume that since the kenpo school printed the flyers, provided the location it would be up to them to see to it all things were in order. I dont know the kenpo school. But would think the kenpo school since it was them who put on the event would of followed strict and fair rules...if this wasnt the case then I would think it would fall on the kenpo school.
I dont want anyone believing I condone any type of unfair challenge or tournament this is wrong. I wouldnt attend or allow my students to enter any competition that was a threat and all out fight, this goes against my beliefs and why I train in martial arts. My personal philosophy is to forgive my enemies, to not want conflict. Since this was the grappling section I thought this would show the importance of diversity and incorporating from other systems to be a well rounded martial artist...to show the importance of grappling either by being able to protect ones self from the ground, or if taken to the ground to be able to defend from this position. Some schools only teach ground defense, some only stand up punch / kick. The Bells are well versed in both areas...this is what i was trying to show.....and Again I dont condone an all out battle without rules...i never would this is wrong. Again I wasn't there.
My sincere appoligies.
Hey Dave,
Nothing to apologize about. We are glad that you are here at MartialTalk and I for one look forward to more of your posts in the future.
Nothing to apologize about. We are glad that you are here at MartialTalk and I for one look forward to more of your posts in the future.
OP
Master Dave
Yellow Belt
- Thread Starter
- #35
Thank you my friend but if I offended anyone on this forum it was not my intent and to them i sincerly apoligize.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
This isn't meant to be an attack, just an observation.
While one school may be hosting the event, and therefor carrys the responsibility to do the legwork and make sure any legal and safety obligations and such are "in order", it would be foolish for the other school to just assume all is well, without checking on their own. Especially if there is a history of antagonism between the two of them. The second school could be foolishly walking into a trap. Everyone is responsible for their own well-being, and under these cirucumstances, I would certainly not simply trust that the other party has taken care of the issues. I would want to check it out for myself.
Personally, I would be very wary of accepting an invitation to any kind of pugilistic "competition" set up by someone who has acted as an open antagonist towards me. Again, especially of all the "refereeing" was being done by the other party. It just stinks of being set up, and a likely dangerous situation. Just can't understand why someone would accept a challenge like this...
OP
Master Dave
Yellow Belt
- Thread Starter
- #37
excellent point, and it makes sense.
Cruentus
Grandmaster
Master Dave,
Sometimes it is difficult to get the tone, inflection, and motive of people only through the written word. Thank you for clearing up your position. At first I assumed it was a legal MMA type match. Then with further posts, I and others believed that it was an "old school no rules" challange match, and in all fairness that was what you indicated. It also appeared that you were condoning that behavior.
Thank you for clearing up your position, and letting us know that wasn't the case. You have stated that you don't condone "challange match" behavior. Further, you are saying that it was supposed to be a legal full contact tournament that simply got out of hand? If that is the case then I am glad I understand better, even though I think Michael's (flying crane) points still apply.
I apologize if I caused offense by coming across as harsh and confrontive. Thank you again for making things more clear.
Sometimes it is difficult to get the tone, inflection, and motive of people only through the written word. Thank you for clearing up your position. At first I assumed it was a legal MMA type match. Then with further posts, I and others believed that it was an "old school no rules" challange match, and in all fairness that was what you indicated. It also appeared that you were condoning that behavior.
Thank you for clearing up your position, and letting us know that wasn't the case. You have stated that you don't condone "challange match" behavior. Further, you are saying that it was supposed to be a legal full contact tournament that simply got out of hand? If that is the case then I am glad I understand better, even though I think Michael's (flying crane) points still apply.
I apologize if I caused offense by coming across as harsh and confrontive. Thank you again for making things more clear.
JBrainard
Senior Master
I posted this before I read the last few posts, so no offence to all. Just wanted to put in my two cents.
I briefly took Shotokan Karate with a teacher who was JKA 5th Dan and studied directly under the grandmaster in Japan. He said to us once something to the effect of "A true master can walk away from a fight, even if provoked (but not attacked)."
Since (to my knowledge) the kenpo school never attacked anyone from the other school, "enough was enough" is B.S. The head instructor shouldn't have let himself be provoked by this grade school crap, and should not have accepted the challenge.
I couldn't have said it better if I tried.
I briefly took Shotokan Karate with a teacher who was JKA 5th Dan and studied directly under the grandmaster in Japan. He said to us once something to the effect of "A true master can walk away from a fight, even if provoked (but not attacked)."
Since (to my knowledge) the kenpo school never attacked anyone from the other school, "enough was enough" is B.S. The head instructor shouldn't have let himself be provoked by this grade school crap, and should not have accepted the challenge.
I couldn't have said it better if I tried.
Flatlander
Grandmaster
Sorry to come down so harsh, Master Dave. Though I still think that the 'event' itself was a mistake, I'm glad that you shared it with us to illustrate that this kind of behaviour is happening. With the clarifications you've made, I can clearly understand that this isn't something that you condone. Peace.
