The Centerline Principle of Strength & Power

[jlq]

If it is Bas, the problem starts way before the arm wrap...

 

[Juany118]

Why would you say that? One doesn't have to occupy the centerline to protect the centerline. A closed guard (both hands on the centerline) invites the opponent to go around. An open guard (both hands wide of the centerline) invites the opponent to come up the middle. There are most certainly strategies to deal with either one. In fact, in Wing Chun as I practice it, I prefer a bit of an open guard and for the opponent to punch straight up the middle. This allows me to sidestep and Pak and take the flank or "blindside" or "side door" pretty easily. The Pak keeps the opponent from being able to just pivot and track me. This is TWC 101.

And if you want to get really fancy step in with a solid cheun. Not only does that make it difficult for him to pivot, you are covering against his other hand, while you tak his balance and "trap" that limb. He now either has to work against his own body (not a good choice),or t-step away, in order to recover, thus losing initiative.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

One doesn't have to occupy the centerline to protect the centerline.

- The red punches with his left.
- The blue punches with his right.

At this particular moment, who is protecting the center-line?

1. Red?
2, Blue?
3. Both?

Do both share the same center-line?

 

[KPM]

^^^^ At that particular moment, blue has "taken the line." He is on the centerline and red is not. That is Wing Chun 101.

 

[drop bear]

I'm talking about situation like this.

- When you punch, your opponent can wrap your punching arm.
- When your opponent punch, you block, your opponent can still wrap your arm.

Now your opponent controls your center-line and you have to deal with this situation. As far as I know, the WC sticky hand training that I have learned does not include how to deal with this situation - your opponent tries to wrap your arm.

In other words, the WC sticky hand train you how to stick to your opponent's arm. It doesn't train you the opposite - how not to be contacted by your opponent's arm.

IMO, the solution is very simple. When your opponent tries to wrap your arm, you just rotate your arm the same direction as his arm is rotating. This will make your opponent's arm to wrap into the thin air. If your opponent can't touch your arm, he can get into your front door and control your center.

My question is, in the following clip, if the red shirt guy is a WC guy, what should he do right at that moment?

Take the center line in a clinch.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

^^^^ At that particular moment, blue has "taken the line." He is on the centerline and red is not. That is Wing Chun 101.

Are you saying if A is in B's front door then A is on B's center-line even A's center-line and B's center-line may merge as one?

At 1.02 in the following clip, who has controlled over the other's center-line while

- A's arms wraps around B's waist, and
- B's arms wrap around A's upper body?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Take the center line in a clinch.

I'm interested in the connection between WC center-line and clinch.

 

[Juany118]

Are you saying if A is in B's front door then A is on B's center-line even A's center-line and B's center-line may merge as one?

At 1.02 in the following clip, who has controlled over the other's center-line while

- A's arms wraps around B's waist, and
- B's arms wrap around A's upper body?

To answer the first question I believe you saying that blue has controlled the center line because the matter of his attack clearly forced red to miss. Having control of the center line isn't just about being in a dominant position, for lack of a better term. It's also about having Disturbed in one way or another your opponent Center / balance.

You can do this through striking as we see in red versus blue and you can do this via grappling as we see in the clinch video. As an example I would say I control the center if I apply as successful arm bar takedown on my opponent. This is because my personal Center Line, the center mine plain, and my opponents Center or three distinctly different things. My centerline can face, and attack my oppoent's center 360 around him. His centerline can this be facing away from or perpendicular to me. This is part of what "fighting on the blind side" is all about.

So tl;Dr, controlling the centerline is really, imo, about me maintaining control of my center while disrupting the opponents at the same time. If I do not disrupt my opponents but I successfully protect my Center I have not controlled the Centerline I simply defended it. I break it down this way because two opponents cannot simultaneously control the same object / position

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

two opponents cannot simultaneously control the same object / position

How about the symmetry?

For example,

- A's right Tan Shou is inside of B's left punch. B's right Tan Shou is inside of A's left punch.
- A's arms wrap around B's waist. B's arms wrap around A's head.

A's chest is facing to B's chest. B's chest is facing to A's chest.

 

[drop bear]

How about the symmetry?

For example,

- A's right Tan Shou is inside of B's left punch. B's right Tan Shou is inside of A's left punch.
- A's arms wrap around B's waist. B's arms wrap around A's head.

A's chest is facing to B's chest. B's chest is facing to A's chest.

A fifty/fifty position?

 

[drop bear]

I'm interested in the connection between WC center-line and clinch.

i assume they are just parralel theories.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

A fifty/fifty position?

This is why I believe that "arm wrap" can make the WC center-line principle less meaningful.

When

- A has over hook on B, and
- B also has under hook on A,

it's a 50-50 position. Both A's free arm and B's free arm can punch on each other equally. At this moment, whoever has his free arm inside the other person's free arm will have advantage.

 

[wckf92]

This is why I believe that "arm wrap" can make the WC center-line principle less meaningful.

When

- A has over hook on B, and
- B also has under hook on A,

it's a 50-50 position. Both A's free arm and B's free arm can punch on each other equally. At this moment, whoever has his free arm inside the other person's free arm will have advantage.

But is seems to me that you are contradicting yourself. One could say, that inside is equal to outside and outside is equal to inside with regard to elbow position. Who has the advantage will depend on how their elbow pressure training was conducted. For example, the outside elbow could easily Jum (sink/compress) the inside elbow out of the way enroute to punching his face...just as easily as the inside elbow could Tan (wedge/disperse) the outside elbow enroute to punching, etc.
IMO.