The Blame Game

[michaeledward]

All those who think the response to Hurricane Katrina was the United States finest hour, please ignore this thread.

All else, we have been asked to put off "The Blame Game", while there is still work to do. Well, I think there is no time like the present. And, I certainly think the President is not able to lead a successful investigation into "what went right, and what didn't" (he couldn't find out Karl Rove spoke to reports for two years?)

So, who's at fault.

My Vote.

The President.
It's August. In the early weeks of July, the entire White House maps out a low-key itinerary to pretend a 'Working Vacation' is about to take place. (Remember, you never introduce a new product before September). He allowed his entire administration take the month off. A communications director was getting married in Europe. Chief of Staff was in Maine. Veep was in Wyoming. Nobody was around to tell him what to do.

Thinking back at Michael Moore's footage of the President in the classroom ... for seven minutes .... while a student read 'My Pet Goat'. Man, it seems Mr. Moore in the proverbial nail on the head.

This time, there was no one to usher the President to the car, so he just kept dancing to the steps laid out in July.

Sure, there is lots of other incompetency... "Brownie" ... 'Chertoff" ... Watch fo the Memo's. Barbara Bush clearly demonstrated how her son did not become a blabbering idiot without some genetic material.

But, no, all fingers point to 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.

Anyone else?

 

[arnisador]

This was a unique situation--unprecedented in modern times. I'm reluctant to assign blame.

 

[Knarfan]

I know that the Govenor made a huge mistake by not ordering a mandatory evacuation soon enough. BTW Bush did advise the Gov. to do so more then once. I think that there is plenty of blame to go around but really there was an obvious lack of communication & it still continues. I think that everyone seems overwhelmed from the Pres on down the line. I don't think that you can assign to much blame on any one person at this point it is a very complicated problem & really there is no easy answers. I think that we need to forget the politics for awhile & concentrate on the real issues the system failed that means lots of people made mistakes.

 

[deadhand31]

Mikey, step back, and listen for a sec.
1. Michael Moore had it wrong. It was not 7 minutes, it was 5 minutes.
2. Those 5 minutes wouldn't have done squat.
3. The teacher of the classroom, though she didn't vote for Bush, felt his presence at the school was comforting.

Enough bashing that insane sack of crap who has far less education than the guy he's bashing.

How about these points:

1. FEMA assessed New Orleans for a worst case storm. The city was ill-prepared. They knew this in 2001. The levees were unable to handle anything above a low level category 3. The state and city governments knew this.
2. There was time to get people out. There was at least 5 days warning, and there was free transportation provided. Even if a person has no car, and decides not to take a bus, a human being walks at the average 4 miles an hour. If a person walks 3 hours a day (yes, just 3), they could probably have been out of the city in 3 or 4 days (though I'm not sure of New Orleans' size).
3. When civilians with boats went in to help get people out, THEY WERE SHOT AT! Rescue helicopters which weren't designed for warzones were shot at. The only way that rescuers could get in to help people in these areas safely is if they were part of a large convoy with military presence. It takes time to coordinate rescue efforts with military presence.
4. The mayor of New Orleans skipped town. When his city was in crisis, he demanded help and screamed that he wasn't getting it. His police force turned in their badges. Given that he may not have prevented all the walkouts, he was nowhere to be found when leadership was needed. Can you imagine what would have happened if Rudy did the same thing on 9/11?

Just chew over these things for a while.

 

[Marginal]

It's telling that the administration said "Well, they didn't ask for help fast enough" when the fact that a state of emergency had long been announced is a matter of public record.

FEMA's apparently run by idiots to compound matters. Cluster the food in one spot with the expectation that anyone who wants it will just have to suck it up and amble on over, then strongly object when the millitary starts air lifting it to the folks in town...

 

[michaeledward]

A couple of points to make.


Michael Chertoff, the Secretary of the Department of Homeland Defense, and sitting member of the President's Cabinet said on Meet the Press, Sunday morning:

"I remember on Tuesday morning picking up newspapers and I saw headlines, 'New Orleans Dodged The Bullet.'"
​

With that statement in mind, and with that speaker in mind, I submit the following link: http://www.newseum.org/todaysfrontpages/archive.asp?fpArchive=083005 - withover 400 front pages from August 30th, there doesn't seem to be one with a headline that 'New Orleans Dogded the Bullet'.



Michael Brown, the head of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, and direct report to Michael Chertoff did not seek to dispatch FEMA personnel to the affected areas until 5 hours after landfall of Hurricane Katrina. Further, his request was for 1,000 personnel and they could take two days to arrive. His request asked for an additional 1,000 personnel to arrive within a week. Brown said that among duties of these employees was to "convey a positive image" about the government's response for victims.

 

[michaeledward]

Mikey, step back, and listen for a sec.
. . . .
2. There was time to get people out. There was at least 5 days warning, and there was free transportation provided.
. . . . .
Just chew over these things for a while.

deadhand31 ... there is so much that is so wrong with your post. I'm wondering if that water you're carrying ever gets heavy.

Let's just address this one item.

The hurricane made landfall at 7:00 AM on Monday August 29.
The hurrican was predicted to be Category 4 and to make landfall in the Mississippi / Louisiana at 4:00 PM on Friday August 26.

You math skills are horrible ... That is not 5 days warning. That is approximatel 63 hours ... which is less than three days.

And, let's look at the important, but damaging, press releases from the Bush Administration ... they tend to occur on Friday afternoons, where they are likely to get the least amount of press coverage.

And, let's look at people who are poor, who don't have 24-7 access to the news media, because they don't have, say, a television.

So, I'll chew on your facts ... if you'll chew on reality.

 

[MisterMike]

Well, I for one cannot blame the president for a natural disaster. I'm sure there are those who will try to make that stretch.

I, speaking from the viewpoint of personal responsibility, think those people should have gotten the heck outta Dodge, days before it hit landfall when they knew it was coming straight for them.

For those that reallllly couldn't get out, I feel sorry that they did not get the food and water they needed until days later. But I wonder, how many would find a way out of their house if a murderer with a knife was breaking in? Or if they knew one was up the street and they had time to make a run for it. Well, there'd be a lot less people in the Stuperdome. (Should they rebuild it, that's what it should be called.)

As for using the military to bring food and water, I think they should have used the air force. Then they could have dropped it from above without the worry of being shot at. Who can blame some of these public service groups for not rushing in while the news (again, one of the groups who believe it's all the President's fault) is portraying the scene as an unruly mob, blasting, raping and beating each other.

If we're going to look for blame, the Mayor shouyld be fired first. Then we'll go up the chain.

 

[michaeledward]

If we're going to look for blame, the Mayor shouyld be fired first. Then we'll go up the chain.

MisterMike, you tend to be thoughtful. And you're thoughts here are not unreasonable. Certainly, the Mayor is the least skilled politician in the mix. His election was a surprise win two years ago. I don't think he had any politcal experience before running for mayor (although I could be wrong on that).

I might suggest that you review the 'National Response Plan'. This is contract between the Department of Homeland Security and the states and cities in the event of an emergency. This contract spells out very specifically who has primary responsibility in the event of a disaster (Incident of National Significance).

Now, I don't know if the Mayor was aware of the National Response Plan or not. But, if you review the signatories to the document, it is apparent that several power brokers were aware of it ...because they signed it.

http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/interapp/editorial/editorial_0566.xml

 

[MisterMike]

The NRP base plan is to be phased in over a year, starting from December 2004. It is not implimented as of yet.

Phase I – Transitional Period (0 to 60 days): This
60-day timeframe is intended to provide a transitional
period for departments and agencies and other
organizations to modify training, designate staffing of
NRP organizational elements, and become familiar
with NRP structures, processes, and protocols.
■ Phase II – Plan Modification (60 to 120 days):
This second 60-day timeframe is intended to
provide departments and agencies the opportunity
to modify existing Federal interagency plans to
align with the NRP and conduct necessary training.
■ Phase III – Initial Implementation and Testing (120
days to 1 year): Four months after its issuance, the
NRP is to be fully implemented, and the INRP, FRP,
CONPLAN, and FRERP are superseded. Other existing
plans remain in effect, modified to align with the
NRP. During this timeframe, the Department of
Homeland Security (DHS) will conduct systematic
assessments of NRP coordinating structures,
processes, and protocols implemented for actual
Incidents of National Significance (defined on page 4
of the NRP), national-level homeland security
exercises, and National Special Security Events
(NSSEs). These assessments will gauge the plan’s
effectiveness in meeting specific objectives outlined in
Homeland Security Presidential Directive-5 (HSPD-5).
At the end of this period, DHS will conduct a 1-year
review to assess the implementation process and make
recommendations to the Secretary on necessary NRP
revisions. Following this initial review, the NRP will
begin a deliberate 4-year review and reissuance cycle.

Role of the governor:

As a State’s chief executive, the Governor is responsible
for the public safety and welfare of the people of that
State or territory. The Governor:
■ Is responsible for coordinating State resources to
address the full spectrum of actions to prevent,
prepare for, respond to, and recover from incidents in
an all-hazards context to include terrorism, natural
disasters, accidents, and other contingencies;
■ Under certain emergency conditions, typically has
police powers to make, amend, and rescind orders
and regulations;
■ Provides leadership and plays a key role in
communicating to the public and in helping people,
businesses, and organizations cope with the
consequences of any type of declared emergency
within State jurisdiction;
■ Encourages participation in mutual aid and
implements authorities for the State to enter into
mutual aid agreements with other States, tribes, and
territories to facilitate resource-sharing;
■ Is the Commander-in-Chief of State military forces
(National Guard when in State Active Duty or Title 32
Status and the authorized State militias); and
■ Requests Federal assistance when it becomes clear
that State or tribal capabilities will be insufficient or
have been exceeded or exhausted.

From what I got, that document is more of a template for structuring how local, state and federal agencies will work together in the event of a domestic incident. It does not spell out timetables and when to pick up the phone and ask for help.

 

[BrandiJo]

I think the only people who should be blamed are the people who didnt follow orders and leave when they were told to. I think its very sad that help took awhile to get to them but again it was their own faults for not leaving. I do think the government could have responded better but everything could have been better this is the worst stom the US has seen in a long time i think.

 

[michaeledward]

Priorities ...

PENSACOLA, Fla., Sept. 6 - Two Navy helicopter pilots and their crews returned from New Orleans on Aug. 30 expecting to be greeted as lifesavers after ferrying more than 100 hurricane victims to safety.
Instead, their superiors chided the pilots, Lt. David Shand and Lt. Matt Udkow, at a meeting the next morning for rescuing civilians .........

But as the two helicopters were heading back home, the crews picked up a radio transmission from the Coast Guard saying helicopters were needed near the University of New Orleans to help with rescue efforts, the two pilots said.
Out of range for direct radio communication with Pensacola, more than 100 miles to the east, the pilots said, they decided to respond and turned their helicopters around, diverting from their mission without getting permission from their home base. Within minutes, they were over New Orleans.

"We're not technically a search-and-rescue unit, but we're trained to do search and rescue," said Lieutenant Shand, a 17-year Navy veteran.

Flying over Biloxi and Gulfport and other areas of Mississippi, they could see rescue personnel on the ground, Lieutenant Udkow said, but he noticed that there were few rescue units around the flooded city of New Orleans, on the ground or in the air. "It was shocking," he said.

Seeing people on the roofs of houses waving to him, Lieutenant Udkow headed in their direction. Hovering over power lines, his crew dropped a basket to pick up two residents at a time. He took them to Lakefront Airport, where local emergency medical teams had established a makeshift medical center.

Meanwhile, Lieutenant Shand landed his helicopter on the roof of an apartment building, where more than a dozen people were marooned. Women and children were loaded first aboard the helicopter and ferried to the airport, he said.

.....

"I would be looking at a family of two on one roof and maybe a family of six on another roof, and I would have to make a decision who to rescue," he said. "It wasn't easy."
While refueling at a Coast Guard landing pad in early evening, Lieutenant Udkow said, he called Pensacola and received permission to continue rescues that evening. According to the pilots and other military officials, they rescued 110 people.

"We all want to be the guys who rescue people," Commander Holdener said. "But they were told we have other missions we have to do right now and that is not the priority."

The order to halt civilian relief efforts angered some helicopter crews. Lieutenant Udkow, who associates say was especially vocal about voicing his disagreement to superiors, was taken out of the squadron's flying rotation temporarily and assigned to oversee a temporary kennel established at Pensacola to hold pets of service members evacuated from the hurricane-damaged areas, two members of the unit said. Lieutenant Udkow denied that he had complained and said he did not view the kennel assignment as punishment.

In protest, some members of the unit have stopped wearing a search and rescue patch on their sleeves that reads, "So Others May Live."

 

[Marginal]

Michael Brown, the head of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, and direct report to Michael Chertoff did not seek to dispatch FEMA personnel to the affected areas until 5 hours after landfall of Hurricane Katrina. Further, his request was for 1,000 personnel and they could take two days to arrive. His request asked for an additional 1,000 personnel to arrive within a week. Brown said that among duties of these employees was to "convey a positive image" about the government's response for victims.

Rock solid qualifications too. He was formerly a failed horse show organizer. Lucky Bush recognized his true calling.

 

[Mark L]

There's plenty of blame to go around, but laying it all on Bush is unfair, although certainly convenient for his critics. The top guy is ultimately responsible, but as already stated, start with the mayor and work your way up the food chain.

In any organization the top dog gets more credit for success, and more blame for failure than they truly deserve.

 

[michaeledward]

Seems, where ever the President goes, there is much activity, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

But it makes a great photo.

Firefighters ...

"But as specific orders began arriving to the firefighters in Atlanta, a team of 50 Monday morning quickly was ushered onto a flight headed for Louisiana. The crew's first assignment: to stand beside President Bush as he tours devastated areas."

Bulldozers ...

2 minutes ago the President drove past in his convoi. But what has happened in Biloxi all day long is truly unbelievable. Suddenly recovery units appeared, suddenly bulldozers were there, those hadn't been seen here all the days before, and this in an area, in which it really wouldn't be necessary to do a big clean up, because far and wide nobody lives here anymore, the people are more inland in the city. The President travels with a press baggage [big crew]. This press baggage got very beautiful pictures which are supposed to say, that the President was here and help is on the way, too. The extent of the natural disaster shocked me, but the extent of the staging is shocking me at least the same way.

Other Heavy equipment ...

But perhaps the greatest disappointment stands at the breached 17th Street levee. Touring this critical site yesterday with the President, I saw what I believed to be a real and significant effort to get a handle on a major cause of this catastrophe. Flying over this critical spot again this morning, less than 24 hours later, it became apparent that yesterday we witnessed a hastily prepared stage set for a Presidential photo opportunity; and the desperately needed resources we saw were this morning reduced to a single, lonely piece of equipment.

 

[Knarfan]

Seems, where ever the President goes, there is much activity, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

But it makes a great photo.

Firefighters ...

Bulldozers ...

Other Heavy equipment ...

Who was responsible for putting people in the superdome with criminals:murders,rapist & not much in the way of food or water? The local officials messed up BIG-TIME! Your starting to sound like a Michael Moore wanta-be

. Tell the whole story, not just the parts you like. Truth is the local government is just alittle corrupt so don't turn it into a Bush-bash.

 

[michaeledward]

Who was responsible for putting people in the superdome with criminals:murders,rapist & not much in the way of food or water? The local officials messed up BIG-TIME! Your starting to sound like a Michael Moore wanta-be . Tell the whole story, not just the parts you like. Truth is the local government is just alittle corrupt so don't turn it into a Bush-bash.

Please tell me, how many murders and rapists were in the Superdome?

How many murders and rapes actually took place in the Superdome?


http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1563470,00.html

New Orleans police chief Eddie Compass said last night: "We don't have any substantiated rapes. We will investigate if the individuals come forward."


And while many claim they happened, no witnesses, survivors or survivors' relatives have come forward.
Nor has the source for the story of the murdered babies, or indeed their bodies, been found.

 

[Knarfan]

Please tell me, how many murders and rapists were in the Superdome?

How many murders and rapes actually took place in the Superdome?

Well I'm pretty sure that there was 2 or 3 rapes & one of the girls was 13 years old. After the rape of the 13 year older occured the rapest was then murdered by a vigil anti crowd. Pretty cool huh? I hope he died a slow death! Evidently, Hardened criminals where released & aloud to rome free with all the common folk. In case you didn't know I don't think the locals supplied any police protection in the superdome. It was a very bad situation that the woman, children,the sick & elderly where put into. Also I'v heard numerous people on the news who where there telling the same story. I didn't hear any mention that Bush was in attendance or the Gov or the Mayor or Eddie or food or water. I guess Bush is the only liar in the world? Maybe Eddie should check some of the bodys that have been floating in the water for about a week. Oh yeh one more thing what about the cops who did stay behind? They didn't get much help from the Mayor or Govoner? I guess thats Bushes fault also? If you want to pass judgement you have to start with the local authorities & then maybe hand some of the blame off to Bush & the Feds but, don't give me Michael Moorer.

 

[michaeledward]

Well I'm pretty sure that there was 2 or 3 rapes & one of the girls was 13 years old. After the rape of the 13 year older occured the rapest was then murdered by a vigil anti crowd. Pretty cool huh? I hope he died a slow death! Evidently, Hardened criminals where released & aloud to rome free with all the common folk. In case you didn't know I don't think the locals supplied any police protection in the superdome. It was a very bad situation that the woman, children,the sick & elderly where put into. Also I'v heard numerous people on the news who where there telling the same story. I didn't hear any mention that Bush was in attendance or the Gov or the Mayor or Eddie or food or water. I guess Bush is the only liar in the world? Maybe Eddie should check some of the bodys that have been floating in the water for about a week.

Oh, yeah. ... we're all real big on vigilantism here. It's so cool when justice is dispensed by the mob.

Except ... the Police Chief has stated there are no "substantiated" rapes.

There was security at the Superdome. It certainly was not insufficient. It is so comforting to know how quickly FEMA came in to Manage the Federal Emergency. Of course, the local police officers also lost their houses, couldn't contact their families, and were just as ignorant of what was going on around them as everyone else.

And, be aware of the 'wallpaper effect', where media report the same story over and over again; show the same video footage over and over again (without a date time stamp); are you sure it was 'numerous people' telling the same story ... and not the same people telling a story.

 

[Knarfan]

Oh, yeah. ... we're all real big on vigilantism here. It's so cool when justice is dispensed by the mob.

Except ... the Police Chief has stated there are no "substantiated" rapes.

There was security at the Superdome. It certainly was not insufficient. It is so comforting to know how quickly FEMA came in to Manage the Federal Emergency. Of course, the local police officers also lost their houses, couldn't contact their families, and were just as ignorant of what was going on around them as everyone else.

And, be aware of the 'wallpaper effect', where media report the same story over and over again; show the same video footage over and over again (without a date time stamp); are you sure it was 'numerous people' telling the same story ... and not the same people telling a story.

Am I sure? probably not, I wasn't there & neither where you. Are you blameing the media now? The media was there for aleast part of the time. As far as the cops that stayed behind, thats my point they risk their lives not knowing if their own families were alive & they got screwed by the local government. So basically your argument is the federal government (Bush) failed to responed quickly enough? I can live with that but, what happened before it was their turn to act? Oh yeh, the hurricane and????? Oh yeh, I'm not really into vigilantism but in that case I might have sided with the mob. I'm out. Time will tell....