The assumption of the Fight

[Flying Crane]

As is often the case, this thread was sparked by comments I've seen in other threads, and it seemed like a decent topic of discussion on its own merits...

So here it is. Seems that people here on occasion will ask questions about the experiences that the MT membership has had, things like, "So has anyone had any experince in sparring or in a fight being able to pull off XYZ technique?"

This comment kind of assumes that members have been getting in fights out there in the real world, outside the dojo. How true is this?

Personally, I've been training since I was 13, and I'm close to 40 now. I've never needed to use my training to defend myself or others. I've been close a few times, I've had people try to mess with me, but I've always been able to either talk a way around it or took advantage of another escape route. I can say that I've never had to mix it up for real with anyone on the street, in a nightclub, in a bar, anywhere. And I have spent a number of years living in neighborhoods with a certain level of grittiness to them, tho I tend to not hang out in places where fighting might be common. I've just never had the true need. I do not know if this is a result of my training, or simply my personality. All I can say is, I do not go looking for it, and it seldom seems to find me on its own.

So howabout everyone else? Do we all assume that because we are martial artists, that we somehow run into situations that we need to fight our way out of? Is this the common view of martial artists? If one has not had the need to fight for real, does that somehow dimish one's standing, or one's ranking, as a martial artist?

Whatdaya all think?

 

[Touch Of Death]

I understand that just being a martial artist is a big help in avoiding fights; however, I do get attacked here and there. Could be my charming personality. I have always looked ten years young than my age, which was tough at ten. Even now I, as a supervisor, get swung on by disgruntled employees. Call it a curse but sometimes the fight comes looking for me.
Sean

 

[searcher]

Nowadays, I rarely have any need to use my H2H training for anything outside of the ring. In my more testosterone driven days, I used my training and skills on a semi-regular basis, but this was of my own doing and had nothing to do with my training(I was a hothead and wanted to fight).

I had many a fight as a football player in college, but we had daily brawls at practice. And let me tell you, it is a real pain to fight with all the football equipment on.

For me, I don't feel I have anything to prove, so fighting for me is about competition and my own personal improvement. It is not for me to beat the crap out of anyone. If I have to defend myself these day and I cannot talk my way out of it, I will be using my knife or my carry gun. But I prefer to talk my way out and/or stay away from areas where I might have to fight/defend myself.

As far as how rank and training fit into the puzzle. I live in a small rural area and I know about everyone in the county(or they at least know who I am). They know I teach and I fight competitvely on occasion. It is a definate deterrant to people wanting to fight with me(if it keeps me from fighting, I am good with that).

 

[MJS]

Hey Mike,

Nice thread topic. I'll do my best to offer my thoughts.

As is often the case, this thread was sparked by comments I've seen in other threads, and it seemed like a decent topic of discussion on its own merits...

So here it is. Seems that people here on occasion will ask questions about the experiences that the MT membership has had, things like, "So has anyone had any experince in sparring or in a fight being able to pull off XYZ technique?"

This comment kind of assumes that members have been getting in fights out there in the real world, outside the dojo. How true is this?

I'm sure we have a variety of people on here, ones that fit into the following group(s)

1) People who have never been in a fight.

2) People who've come close.

3) People who have been in them.

Are people going out and fighting in the streets like they used to back in the day of say Kaju...no, probably not.

Personally, I've been training since I was 13, and I'm close to 40 now. I've never needed to use my training to defend myself or others. I've been close a few times, I've had people try to mess with me, but I've always been able to either talk a way around it or took advantage of another escape route. I can say that I've never had to mix it up for real with anyone on the street, in a nightclub, in a bar, anywhere. And I have spent a number of years living in neighborhoods with a certain level of grittiness to them, tho I tend to not hang out in places where fighting might be common. I've just never had the true need. I do not know if this is a result of my training, or simply my personality. All I can say is, I do not go looking for it, and it seldom seems to find me on its own.

So howabout everyone else? Do we all assume that because we are martial artists, that we somehow run into situations that we need to fight our way out of? Is this the common view of martial artists? If one has not had the need to fight for real, does that somehow dimish one's standing, or one's ranking, as a martial artist?

Whatdaya all think?

We can look at this a few different ways as well. I'll use myself as an example. I dont hang out in potential 'trouble spots' such as bars, clubs, etc. I could count on one hand, the number of times I've been in bars and clubs. Have I gone with a group of friends, to the strip club, to celebrate someones B-day? Sure, but again, these are places that I dont hang at on a regular basis, regular being defined as multiple times a week, every weekend, etc. That being said, I've already saved myself a bunch of headache.

I dont hang with people who're likely to draw trouble, ie: drug dealers, gang members, people with criminal records, people who themselves, associate with troublemakers. That being said, I've saved myself from more headache.

I dont hang out or frequent problem areas. Again, I saved myself from more issues.

Have I had a few physical altercations when I was in school? Yes. Have I had some when I worked in the DOC? Yes. The majority of my confrontations have had a very high potential for becoming physical, and I'm fully prepared should that happen, however, I've been fortunate, so far, to talk things down. Now, dont mistake the talking for acting like a *****, because thats certainly not the case. IMO, acting like a *****, just for the sake of trying to defuse something, has the potential to bring on more issues. Instead, I feel that being firm, but not overly cocky, is the best route. I feel that its possible to maintain confidence with your wording and your body language, and still defuse a situation. I say this, because its worked for me, and I'm here typing a reply to your post, so....

Some of the larger cities where I live are basically cess pools for trouble. Crime is high and the scumbags dont care if its 9am or 9pm, muggings, beatings, shootings, etc. have taken place at all hours of the day. So, were I to work in one of these cities, yes, its possible to get mugged. Its happened, and I can and have posted many examples of this.

So, all that being said, I dont think that people are fighting every day, but I dont think its wise to disregard the potential for a serious physical confrontation to happen.

 

[Flying Crane]

of this.

So, all that being said, I dont think that people are fighting every day, but I dont think its wise to disregard the potential for a serious physical confrontation to happen.

Hey Mike,

thanks for the comments, I wanted to hit this last one a bit...

I'm not suggesting that fights don't happen or that we shouldn't be cautious about it. That's not what I'm getting at here.

It's really this (possible) assumption that: hey we are martial artists here, so we MUST be getting in fights, RIGHT!!? I mean, we train to USE this stuff, DON'T WE? That comment that I outlined in the OP implies to me that people sort of make this assumption about martial artists. Maybe it's not intentional, maybe it's really an unconscious and unintended assumption, but comments like that point it out to me. I'm just kind of curious if that assumption has any correlation in reality, or if it's a widespread assumption, do non-martial artists look at us and think that we must be running around brawling with people? Do they think that, as martial artists, we automatically live a life of danger and adventure, and we must be fighting our way home every night?

 

[sgtmac_46]

Aside from a few incidents years ago, when I was a younger man, all of my physical confrontations have been on the job.........but on the job I do have occassion to use this 'stuff'.......though less often as the years go by.

 

[harlan]

I've learned that one can do all the right things - train to be mindful and security conscious and live a life avoiding situations - but that trouble can still go looking for you.

I train NOT to fight. I may be deceiving myself, but my mindset is to live a quiet, unremarkable and long life. And if trouble should come to me, end it quickly.

Hey Mike,

It's really this (possible) assumption that: hey we are martial artists here, so we MUST be getting in fights, RIGHT!!? I mean, we train to USE this stuff, DON'T WE?

 

[Cirdan]

Obviously the general public is a bit confused there. As we well know it is the Ninjas who are totally sweet and fight ALL the time. (Both Ninjas and other MAists are mammals however.)

 

[Big Don]

KNOWING I can fight if I have to lends a confidence that shows. This, helps me avoid having to fight.

 

[chrispillertkd]

So howabout everyone else? Do we all assume that because we are martial artists, that we somehow run into situations that we need to fight our way out of? Is this the common view of martial artists?

Do I assume that because of my training in MA I'll run into situations where I'll have to defend myself? No, not really. Part of training should be focused on one's awareness. That means you should be able to be cognizant enough of your surroundings to realize when and where there is danger and, if need be, avoid it.

There's really no reason to needlessly put yourself in a situation where you'll be in a physical confrontation. I'm no pacifist but going and and looking for a fight is simply juvenile. If someone is going to frequent places on a normal basis where they may have to engage in physical confrontations I'd wonder about their mental maturity, as well as their formation as a martial artist. It's one thing to walk into a nuisance bar to ask directions or something but if you're going there every Friday night, well...

Avoiding confrontations isn't a sign of cowardice. It's a sign of being smart. Being able to defend oneself isn't the same as being assured that you will triumph in any particular scenario. That's part of the reason why we train, after all. I've had to defend myself on a few occasions. It's not like it was fun but in my case I had very little choice in the matter and actually tried to avoid fighting until I was physically attacked. Fortunately I was the one walking away. All things considered, I'd much rather have had to be in those situations.

If one has not had the need to fight for real, does that somehow dimish one's standing, or one's ranking, as a martial artist?

It's been some time since I've read Karate-Do, My Way of Life but if I recall correctly Gichin Funakoshi states that he never used the physical techniques of karate in order to defend himself. He talks about using karate to avoid confrontations, to avoid putting himself in situations where he'd have to fight someone. Most people I know in the martial arts don't look down on him.

FWIW

Pax,

Chris

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I fought some growing up. I also had to fight as an MP in the Marines. Not so much since then. None since starting MA training at age 47. Don't plan on any either. I do train for self-defense, but like being a gun owner, it doesn't mean I hope to use it defensively or ever will.

Fights aren't really much fun. Lots of pain, and some of it hurts for quite a long time afterward. Plus the chance of getting seriously hurt or even killed...my wife would be furious with me if I came home all dead and stuff.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Most of the fights that I was in were in elementary, middle, and high school. Used to get into fights semi regularly, win some lose some. Before I started training in taekwondo, it was always lose some. Then high school ended, I became an adult and put (most of) my childish ways behind.

Since then, I have been in two 'fights' if you want to call them that. I made use of my training in both to 'end' the fight.

The first was 'ending the fight' in one case involved a swift side kick to the knee of a knife wielding wanna-be-mugger and simply walking away. He yelled, 'come back here', I kid you not. I felt like Arthur leaving his encounter with the black knight in Monty Python's Holy Grail.

The second involved another wanna-be-mugger, a maybe-fourteen year old with a pistol. Fight ended after he shot once and didn't take me down, resulting in my taking his gun from him. Again, not really a fight.

Both of those occurred before I was 21 and both took place when I went into the city to go visit night clubs.

During that time, I had a few confrontations that could have been fights but which ended with everyone talking tough before walking away, thus avoiding any actual fighting but enabling all to save face. Then I stopped going to night clubs. Haven't been in an actual fight since, though I have had a couple of silly pseudo challenges, mostly by kids, when going from my car to the dojang while wearing my dobok. These were ended with a simply 'thanks, but no thanks' response on my part.

So the last time that I used actual physical skills to defend myself was over twenty years ago against two inept individuals who assumed that being armed made up for their ineptitude. Before that, taekwondo, and later, karate classes, helped a skinny, underweight and uncoordinated kid hold his own with schoolyard bullies. I certainly was not 'feared' by my peers.

Not exactly the stuff of legends.

Daniel

 

[chrispillertkd]

I fought some growing up. I also had to fight as an MP in the Marines. Not so much since then. None since starting MA training at age 47. Don't plan on any either. I do train for self-defense, but like being a gun owner, it doesn't mean I hope to use it defensively or ever will.

Quite. If I actually thought I would have to defend myself if I went somewhere it's quite likely I simply wouldn't go there in the first place. It's like when someone I know was armed and their gun was seen by a bystander. She asked him "Do you think you're going to need that?" And he replied, "Ma'am, if I thought I'd need it I wouldn't have left the house this morning."

Pax,

Chris

 

[Nomad]

My only "fights" were prior to training, when I was young(er) and stupid(er) and coincidentally when I was too intoxicated to defend myself. They were also more ambush-style sucker-punches.

 

[MA-Caver]

Excellent thread. True that a majority of MA-ists probably haven't used their training/skills out there in the "real world". There are dozens of factors leading to why that is. As was pointed out... NOT hanging out where fights are usually common (i.e. low dive bars, et al) and not looking for trouble and basically talking their way out of it makes for a relatively peaceful life... outside the home nucleus that is (what goes on behind closed doors at home is your business ). I've stated before on MT that I've been in a few scrapes out there on the streets and that my own (limited) MA training had helped saved my life on more than one occasion. But I got into those scrapes because I was indeed at the wrong place at whatever time. Living homeless on the streets it's a given that you will have to have an altercation (or three) at some point. Now away from such environs the last time I've had to seriously raise my fist was ... gee just prior to my leaving the street life behind forever... umm about 20+ years ago? Granted I've been homeless a time or two since that fateful day but it was nowhere near as bad. Either way... haven't had to put up with anyone else's crap for a long long time.

So how about everyone else? Do we all assume that because we are martial artists, that we somehow run into situations that we need to fight our way out of? Is this the common view of martial artists? If one has not had the need to fight for real, does that somehow diminish one's standing, or one's ranking, as a martial artist?

The answer IMO is unequivocally no. Just because you've never had to USE your training in a real life situation does in no way diminish your rank, ability, status or ideal of a Martial Artist. It's a fair statement to say that the best MA-ists are the ones who have never needed to use their skills. :asian:

 

[zDom]

If one has not had the need to fight for real, does that somehow dimish one's standing, or one's ranking, as a martial artist?

Whatdaya all think?

I think: no, it does not diminish standing or ranking at all. I think, "Well done, sir!"


I do believe that having a successful outcome in a physical confrontation builds some confidence in the same way getting in a wreck and having the air bag or seat belt save you builds confidence in those safety features.

You are better off NOT getting in the wreck (or fight) — but surviving it and getting a bit of confidence out of the deal is a nice consolation prize.

I think that sharing the stories is good, however: it may not be as much of a confirmation as first-hand experience, but allows those who have had that first-hand experience to encourage some confidence in their peers.

 

[Aiki Lee]

I think that the majority of martial artists that have been in actual fights, especially the "really cool" ones involving knives, guns, or groups of thugs always say how stupid it was to have been involved in such a thing.