The Allegory of the Cave

[Makalakumu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-DRdTsnbr0&feature=player_embedded

Thoughts? Is this appropriate to describe our society?

 

[K-man]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-DRdTsnbr0&feature=player_embedded

Thoughts? Is this appropriate to describe our society?

The analogy certainly holds for religion, especially fundamental.

 

[rlobrecht]

From that title, I was expecting a Star Wars: Empire Strikes Back reference.

"The cave, remember your failure at the cave"

 

[Makalakumu]

From that title, I was expecting a Star Wars: Empire Strikes Back reference.

"The cave, remember your failure at the cave"

That's what I thought of before I learned about this particular allegory. LOL!

 

[Makalakumu]

The analogy certainly holds for religion, especially fundamental.

What about politics?

 

[Mark Jordan]

Allegories are subject to numerous interpretations.

For Plato's work "Allegory of the Cave" - this described symbolically the state in which mankind finds itself and then Plato proposes a way of salvation.

It plays with the notion that the world revealed by our senses is not the real world. People would come to understand that their lives had been one of deception.

Plato is trying to unchain others by helping them arrive at truth. So, what would occur if the chained man were suddenly released from his bondage and let out into the world. In religion, when he come to know Jesus Christ -the way, the truth and the life- he is enlightened - This is what the word "When the light of the sun shines on the freed man" means - an allegory for enlightenment and perception of the truth.

 

[Makalakumu]

Allegories are subject to numerous interpretations.

For Plato's work "Allegory of the Cave" - this described symbolically the state in which mankind finds itself and then Plato proposes a way of salvation.

It plays with the notion that the world revealed by our senses is not the real world. People would come to understand that their lives had been one of deception.

Plato is trying to unchain others by helping them arrive at truth. So, what would occur if the chained man were suddenly released from his bondage and let out into the world. In religion, when he come to know Jesus Christ -the way, the truth and the life- he is enlightened - This is what the word "When the light of the sun shines on the freed man" means - an allegory for enlightenment and perception of the truth.

Or could humanity simply jump from one cave to another? What is the "light"? Can we ever become enlightened? How?

 

[K-man]

What about politics?

In this scenario you might say that it is could be the electorate sitting chained, looking at the shadows. Somebody, such as Julian Assange, is set free to obtain some idea of the truth and returns to let the others know that they are watching an illusion. Those still chained won't believe what they are being told because they can't accept that they are living in a state of delusion. I mean, politicians would never lie to us, would they? :shrug:

 

[Makalakumu]

In this scenario you might say that it is could be the electorate sitting chained, looking at the shadows. Somebody, such as Julian Assange, is set free to obtain some idea of the truth and returns to let the others know that they are watching an illusion. Those still chained won't believe what they are being told because they can't accept that they are living in a state of delusion. I mean, politicians would never lie to us, would they? :shrug:

Beautiful.

Unless Julian Assange is just another tool, which would imply that wikileaks is just another cave.

That there are no answers means that we are still alive.

 

[MA-Caver]

Or could humanity simply jump from one cave to another? What is the "light"? Can we ever become enlightened? How?

Freeing our minds... as what the old man did to one of the "prisoners"... also by removing fear by understanding.
The more we understand something the less we come to fear it. If the understanding is limited then so are we by our fear of it. Freedom to understand completely makes for a people willing to not be afraid of those trying to control them.
Truth plays a huge part in our understanding as well. More truth we are shown the broader and deeper our understanding of whatever it is that causes us to fear and we still have the ability to reason and figure out the whys and wherefores of whatever it may be that we're shown.
9-11 is a good example. We went to war to fight against those we are afraid would hurt us again. Yet do we really understand everything that caused them to hurt us in the first place? Do we understand WHY they did it? We don't have the whole truth in front of us to examine and apply our reasoning abilities to it all so to understand it.
If we did I believe that we would be able to find a solution other than warring against them.
Withholding information you can control people. A parent withholds information from their child to better control them. A government can do the same. Withhold the information needed to make better decisions.
Everything can be explained to a point where everyone understands. But when the truth is withheld from what we are seeing then we can only intuit from what limited information that we have.

<my two bits for what they're worth>

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

Or could humanity simply jump from one cave to another? What is the "light"? Can we ever become enlightened? How?

That is the question, isn't it. Just as important, even if we did become enlightened, how would we know it?

I guess that's why the Bible says that it is by faith, not by works that we are saved.

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

Freeing our minds... as what the old man did to one of the "prisoners"... also by removing fear by understanding.

There are many people who don't fear "understanding." In fact, they are quite secure in their beliefs, and yet do what most would consider awful things.

The more we understand something the less we come to fear it. If the understanding is limited then so are we by our fear of it.

I don't know. I understand an alligator's nature, doesn't mean that I fear it any less, given a specific set of circumstances. (I'll come back to this later.)

Freedom to understand completely makes for a people willing to not be afraid of those trying to control them.

Is it the freedom to understand completely, or the actual understanding completely?

Truth plays a huge part in our understanding as well. More truth we are shown the broader and deeper our understanding of whatever it is that causes us to fear and we still have the ability to reason and figure out the whys and wherefores of whatever it may be that we're shown.

You show me your truth and I'll show you mine.

The fact of the matter is that most "truths" are unknowable due to the inherent limitations in human understanding and discernment.

9-11 is a good example. We went to war to fight against those we are afraid would hurt us again. Yet do we really understand everything that caused them to hurt us in the first place? Do we understand WHY they did it? We don't have the whole truth in front of us to examine and apply our reasoning abilities to it all so to understand it.
If we did I believe that we would be able to find a solution other than warring against them.

Let's say that we did understand their motivation. Could you accept the fact that warring against them could be the only possible solution to the problem?

I do have a question, though, over your use of the word "afraid" in this context. By afraid, do you mean an emotional reaction based on fear, or do you mean an understanding of the consequenses of inaction, because they are two entirely different things.

Withholding information you can control people.

Sometimes, maybe even most of the times. Where I work, not giving information leads to rebellion.

A parent withholds information from their child to better control them.

Or perhaps the parent knows no more then the information that they are giving, believing it to be the whole truth...

A government can do the same. Withhold the information needed to make better decisions.

Better for whom...??

Everything can be explained to a point where everyone understands.

That is a very bold assertion. I would challenge you to show me the person who has, in the history of mankind, known everything to the point that they understood everything.

But when the truth is withheld from what we are seeing then we can only intuit from what limited information that we have.

And that is the very intrinsic nature of our limited human capability.

Fundamentaly, I believe some of your assertions, namely the manipulation of information (which is not necessarily truth) is used to control people. I just deny the fact that just because the "truth" is known, that all of a sudden people will become enlightened and sing kumbyah around the campfire. The very nature of human biology limits this.

 

[Archangel M]

I find the idea of someone telling me that Im looking at the cave wall while THEY have seen the "real world" a tad arrogant. How do I know that you are just not looking at a different wall than I am?

 

[Makalakumu]

I find the idea of someone telling me that Im looking at the cave wall while THEY have seen the "real world" a tad arrogant. How do I know that you are just not looking at a different wall than I am?

The old adage of not throwing stones when you live in a glass house comes to mind...

Seriously, I think it's a matter of talking to each other, and deciding for yourself. No one can "tell" you that you are in the cave. I think it's something that the individual has to accept and then decide to change.

On an ironic and related note, I have an acronym that I use to describe certain types of people who are active in politics. A CAVE is a Citizen Against Virtually Everything. Perhaps a CAVE is in the allegorical cave?

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

I find the idea of someone telling me that Im looking at the cave wall while THEY have seen the "real world" a tad arrogant. How do I know that you are just not looking at a different wall than I am?

Sincere question: Do you hold that to be true for all of your beliefs (political, scientific, economic, etc.), or just your belief in the understanding of what reality consists of (ie., your religious or spiritual beliefs)?

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

The old adage of not throwing stones when you live in a glass house comes to mind...

Seriously, I think it's a matter of talking to each other, and deciding for yourself. No one can "tell" you that you are in the cave. I think it's something that the individual has to accept and then decide to change.

Not quite sure that I understand you in relation to the allegory here. Are you referring to the individual's belief in the reality of what is being shown to them, or the ability to transfer the understanding of reality to another, or something else?

 

[Makalakumu]

Not quite sure that I understand you in relation to the allegory here. Are you referring to the individual's belief in the reality of what is being shown to them, or the ability to transfer the understanding of reality to another, or something else?

Look at how circuses train elephants. When they get to a certain point, they only need to tie a rope to them because they learn that they are powerless. I think a lot of us are in the cave of our own volition. Nothing holds us there, we simply choose to remain.

 

[Ken Morgan]

In religion, when he come to know Jesus Christ -the way, the truth and the life- he is enlightened - This is what the word "When the light of the sun shines on the freed man" means - an allegory for enlightenment and perception of the truth.

I disagree,

I interpret it as when the four sit on the floor of the dark cave, looking at multiple and ever changing shadows on a wall, one is experiencing religion, (no different then our ancestors did for tens of thousands of years, creating stories to coincide with what they saw, though based on nothing but conjecture), and when one of the individuals is brought out into the daylight, they quickly toss religion aside as they understand the foolishness of what they had believed previously, as they are now enlightened.

In politics, I constantly hear people talk about how people will come to one side or the other once they have all the information laid out before them. No, that is rarely the case, generally when confronted with contradictory evidence to ones beliefs, the first reaction is entrenchment and a greater fundamentalism of the original belief.

Almost everything can be subjective.

 

[Archangel M]

In "reality", as every one of us experiences the universe as signals received through our senses and interpreted by our brains, we are ALL people watching images flickering on a cave wall. Some of us just enjoy lording it over the guy chained next to us that WE are the ones who know better and THEY are the misguided fools who are only seeing shadows.

 

[Makalakumu]

In "reality", as every one of us experiences the universe as signals received through our senses and interpreted by our brains, we are ALL people watching images flickering on a cave wall.

Part of the analogy is that of being chained and prevented from looking anywhere else. The images flickering on the cave wall are controlled by those who created the chains. It's not a matter simply filtering the world through your senses, unless we say that our senses are our chains and that our Creator bound us to them. Even then, I don't know if it totally fits the analogy.

Some of us just enjoy lording it over the guy chained next to us that WE are the ones who know better and THEY are the misguided fools who are only seeing shadows.

LOL! Some people enjoy that!

In the analogy, when the novitiate comes back, the people who are still chained, resent anyone who suggests that the chains exist and that there is something more. When shown glimpses of this reality, they become angry and violent and would tear the novitiate limb from limb in order to stop them.

IMO, we are seeing this right now with Julian Assange. One cannot lead a person to enlightenment. The individual must always choose. And the enlightened can always make fun of the willful darkened light bulb because their confidence in the shadows is comical. LOL!