The 36/24 Counters of Venancio Bacon (from FMAtalk)

[Mono]

Please the the following post:
http://www.fmatalk.com/showthread.php?t=3686

I d be happy about any Information (posted here or there...)

Thanks a lot!

Philipp "Mono" Wolf

 

[Rich Parsons]

Please the the following post:
http://www.fmatalk.com/showthread.php?t=3686

I d be happy about any Information (posted here or there...)

Thanks a lot!

Philipp "Mono" Wolf

You post from FMATalk.com

Hello to all...

This is a Question about "old school" Balintawak.

According to the Text below, the following "Counters" have been used/taught by Venancio Bacon:

Venancio Bacon said about himself that he knew 36 different counters to every possible attack. Of those 36 methods, 12 went with him into his grave. Only 24 were passed on.
Source: http://www.necopa.de/Style/History/B...alintawak.html

Can anyone elaborate on this Point?

How can I picture those "Counters"?

Does it mean something like:
1. Vertical Block and follow-ups
2. Direct Strike to the Hand and follow-ups
3. Evade and pass through and follow ups etc etc etc

or is it more like

1. "Standart Vertical Block" follow up 1: Strike to the head &continue
2. "Standart Vertical Block" follow up 2: Butt to the Hand & continue
3. "Standart Vertical Block" follow up 3: Disarm xyz... etc etc

Does anyone have further Information on what those "24/36" counters are and or how this has been taught?
Thanks for any Info!!!

Yours,
Philipp "Mono" Wolf

From the link:

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,Times NewRoman][SIZE=+2]T[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times,Times NewRoman]he rest of the Labangon Fencing Club mostly decayed. Many of the members wanted to join the Doce Pares but most of them were not accepted because they did not fit in the new method technically (standartization of the style!), some were rejected because of personal disagreements, whilst others were not allowed to join the organisation because of their somewhat ‘’dark past’’. Nevertheless, some of these later somehow managed to join the club. However, Venancio Bacon from then on went his own way. By the time he had passed the skill of his teacher Lorenzo Saavedra and did not want to limit himself technically. So he founded his own school which he himself did not originally call Balintawak. This name came from the place where Bacon used to teach his students which was located in Balintawak Street in Cebu City. Since in the beginning there probably was no name for the school at all, the students emerging from it simply were known as the fighters from the Balintawak Street and soon this term was used to describe the style itself. Balintawak Street in turn is named after the famous battle that took place during the era of Lapu-Lapu (Magellan was slain in that one!).

[/FONT]
The school when referred to was "that self defense club on Balintawak street." As in many cultures slang and shortening of names occur and most just called it Balintawak.

Manong (GM) Ted Buot, never once mentioned anything about GM Bacon saying he had passed the skill sets of his teachers.

What I was told and believe, is that Anciong was not a nice guy and trained for real. He would poke people with his training dagger. Even though it was only wood the sharp point would cause people to bleed. So people complained and he started training without his dagger. It was this time that he began to optimize his system that is called Balintawak today to be single stick and the heavy use of the off hand to manage, monitor and delay the opponents stick.

From the link:

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,Times NewRoman][SIZE=+2]T [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times,Times NewRoman]he existing antipathy (to call it enmity would probably be exaggerated) between Venancio Bacon’s school and the Cañete - Clan developed during the time of the famous Labangong Fencing Club. It can probably be explained from the fact that some of the former members of the LFC who were not accepted as students by the Cañetes later joined Bacon’s school. Apart from that, there definitely was some kind of natural rivalry between these to famous schools within the same city. However, it never came to an official fight between the two schools, probably because in that case Venancio Bacon in his function as representative of the Balintawak style would have had to fight his old friend Timodoro Saavedra.[/FONT]

Once again from the same source above I was told that Anciong and Ted could go to any of the Doces Pares Clubs and be treated with respect. They even went to their homes for dinner or drinks. The issues were and always have been with the students of the students who were boasting my instructor is better than yours.


From the link:

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,Times NewRoman][SIZE=+2]D[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times,Times NewRoman]uring the times after the World War II, Venancio Bacon’s fame grew on and on. His students were known as tough and fierce fighters who could take a lot of punishment and give even more. This reputation is still valid today: A few years ago, the author went to a training - session with an excellent teacher of Taiji-, Bagua- and Xingyiquan in Berkeley, California who had also trained stick - fighting under Guro Sonny Umpad (who in turn amongst other styles also had learned Balintawak). During a friendly bare hand sparring match, the Bagua teacher hit the author on the nose by accident so that it started bleeding. One of the onlookers asked if the contact hadn’t been a bit too hard and before the author could answer himself the Bagua teacher replied: ‘’Come on, the guy is a Balintawak - instructor...’’ (by the way: the incident did not affect their friendship at all).[/FONT]

After WWII is the time frame when the school in the back of the watch shop on Balintawak street came to be. This is also when Anciong refused to join back up with the Doces Pares. So, I am not sure about the author form the link if they are implying he had his school before WWII for from the sources I have talked to who were there he did not open his famous school until after WWII.


"Blood is nothing but red sweat" I have heard this story about some of those who associated with GM Delfin Lopez and Delfin himself.


On a side Note: I have never trained with GM Sonny Umped, but not everything he taught was Balintawak. And some have tried to say that since they trained with him they must also know Balintawak. The relationship is not an absolute. they may have picked up some, but then there are some moves that others credit to him that are not Balintawak.

From the link:

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,Times NewRoman][SIZE=+2]T[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times,Times NewRoman] he reputation of the Balintawak students was not purely based on the legendary reputation of their teacher, Venancio Bacon. During the time after World War II, Bacon taught a couple of excellent people who mostly became his longterm students, amongst others those were: Timoteo Maranga, Jose Villasin, Teofilo Velez and Arnulfo Mongcal. However the actual relationship between those persons at that time are not at all easy to reconstruct, because Bacon’s most advanced students in addition to the tuition they got from their teacher also taught each other amongst themselves. It is for example known that Arnulfo Mongcal took on some stilistic features from Timoteo Maranga. While he himself in turn taught people like Jose Villasin, Teofilo Velez, Johnny Chiuten and also Remy Presas and some of his relatives. Apart from that, quite a lot of people learned Balintawak between 1950 and 1970. Many of those who learned at Balintawak Street in Cebu, were most of the time (some even all of the time) instructed by Bacon’s advanced students, as there were: Maranga, Mongcal, Villasin. However, nowadays practically all of these people claim to be original students of Bacon, in spite of the fact that he seldomly taught them personally and dedicated most of his effort in teaching to his advanced students who he left in charge of the instruction of beginners or lesser advanced students. Only very few of the Balintawak students of that time admit that they actually were students of Maranga, Villasin or Mongcal and only seldomly got tuition from Bacon himself. This might stem from the fact that Bacon at that time already had a legendary reputation, so that everybody of his school wanted to be recognized as his personal student.[/FONT]

There is something left out here. Those senior students taught mostly out of their own schools or places. The only one who taught at the Balintawak Street school in the 50's through early 70's was either Anciong Bacon or Ted Buot. Many of those who claim, like the author of the site states, tohave learned Balintawak from Anciong learned their basics from Ted or from some others at their training location.

Yet, there were those who did start with the seniors and went to the Balintawak Street club and trained with Anciong himself or at his house, as Remy did.


From the link:

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,Times NewRoman][SIZE=+2]A[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times,Times NewRoman]ll in all, it is not exaggerated to say those were the times when the Balintawak movement was in bloom and from the present point of view, it is hard to say who really learned the style from Bacon himself and who learned it from one of his long term disciples (or perhaps both). However, only very few persons without a doubt belonged to Bacon’ s personal students, probably no more than ten. In that period of time, Bacon gave a name to his own method of Escrima, which others chose to call Balintawak, he called it Kuwentada. Nevertheless, still the name Balintawak is the one in use, just because people got used to it. How the different Balintawak students further developped their own skills and how Balintawak influenced other systems of Escrima shall be explained later in the text.[/FONT]

Hmmm, Manong (GM) Ted Buot a nephew by marriage, and also the only Senior to be teach at the Balintawak Street school, never heard Anciong call his system Kuwentada or Cuentada (* Counting *). He did use the term Cuentada, as when a persons' skill set is above the others, and they are able to score at will or guide the person to score where they want too. So while an intermediate person might be able to pull off a two or three move cuentada on a beginner it is the advanced students that move and move and continue to move until they get the shot they are looking for. Note: Lasnis was the term used for baiting or a single step set up.


From the link:

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,Times NewRoman][SIZE=+2]F[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times,Times NewRoman]irst, some more information on Bacon’s last big achievement. At the end of the 70ies he got into a fight with a man who had attacked him and killed the guy (by far not the first one, but probably the last one!). However, the old times when incidents like that just happened, were over. Venancio Bacon was accused of manslaughter because Lady Justice was of the opinion that a versatile and experienced escrimador like him could have won the fight without killing the man. So they put the old man into jail where he probably would have died, if not a colonel of the police force who’s son had already learned some Balintawak from Velez, had heard from Bacon’s incarceration. Somehow this man managed to get Bacon in contact with the colonels son while still in jail. He also helped Bacon in different ways and in turn to show his gratitude Bacon decided to teach the colonel’s son. This young man, named Bobby Tapimina, should soon become Bacon’s last great student. Since Bacon probably was aware that he only had a few year’s time left, he concentrated on showing Bob Tabimina a new style of his method. He really wanted to leave something behind that would elevate Bobby over the ‘’Wanna - Bes’’, so he changed his original style. Relying on his huge knowledge and experience in teaching as well as real fighting, he created a system meant to overcome all those who had learned from him for only a short while or even not at all, but nevertheless claimed to be his original students. On the one hand this style had to be technically simplified, because it had to be learned in a much shorter period of time (yet be able to overcome the half - learned applicants of the old style!). On the other hand, Bacon’s intention in creating this new modified system was not to endanger his old long - term students who he thought to have reached a comparable level of skill by then. Venancio Bacon succeeded in creating such a system and after he had passed it on to Bobby Tabimina, Bacon died in the 1970s. Only very few people of the 20th century have influenced the world of the filipino martial arts as much as Venancio ‘’Anciong’’ Bacon.[/FONT]

While I have watched video of GM(?) Bobby Tabimina, I can see where he did train with Anciong Bacon based upon the movement of my instructor who also trained and learned only from Anciong. But I can also see movement that shows he learned from the Villisin and Velez lineage as well first. And no disrespect meant to any of those mentioned, but it is my understanding that Anciong called it new so that Bobby would want to learn it and not to take anything away from what he had learned from his previous instructors.

From the link:

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,Times NewRoman][SIZE=+2]V[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times,Times NewRoman]enancio Bacon said about himself that he knew 36 different counters to every possible attack. Of those 36 methods, 12 went with him into his grave. Only 24 were passed on. Which is still enough to be the reason for Balintawak’s technical variety. Venancio Bacon prefered to teach his advanced students through one on one sparring matches. This teaching method, combined with the technical variety of the system, led to a very high level of reactive adaptation to the various attacks. Even if attacked with an unknown technique, the student would react quickly with a - sometimes maybe not ideal -, but nevertheless adequate counter strike. Especially since Bacon’s students were used to being maltreated with all thinkable variations of attacking movements. Their motto was: ‘’Bahala na!’’. Even though Balintawak escrima covers all distances in fighting, it strongly concentrates on the short distance, called ‘close quarter’ or ‘infight’, wich was another preference of Bacon (probably due to his relatively small body size!).[/FONT]

Ah the secret 12 that went to the grave. Are they going to come back later or is this to allow for people to develop there own later?

I have never heard of 36 defenses to each strike not the 24 being taught and 12 being lost.

The student is taught first the basics. This is all part of Abecedario. After Abecedario then Seguidas is taught were the student practices the basics but no longer in the 1-12 order. After Seguidas is Corraidas which is also called the mixing bowl where things get random. I coined the term "Baby" Corraidas for when you are taking a student from Seguidas to Corraidas and back to Seguidas as they are not ready for nothing but Corraidas. With in Corraidas one learns the back up moves. These back up moves are defensive and are there to teach the student to move and to block. After the student learns a basic technique within corraidas and is working other back up moves then the instructor teaches the student a more optimal technique. There are terms that Manong Ted uses to describe the level of the opponent the technique will work against. The first being Juan, whihc is a person who does not know. The second is Juanito who is a person who has some training or natural skills. The last is another "Insert your own name here" where the opponent has all the same skill sets as you.

The instructor will later also not only teach about Lansis and Cuentada and timing of strikes, he should teach you what to do when you are early, on time and or late. Many times there are one or two or even three good options for each state.

So if one looks at this form a mathematical point. 12 strikes. Early, on time and late would give you 36. But then if you add in the Juan, Junaito and "insert your own name here" you get 108. I guess I got more than the 36.

From the link:

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,Times NewRoman][SIZE=+2]T[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times,Times NewRoman]he techniques of Balintawak followed merely one principle: ‘’Effectiveness!“. This may be best clarified by quoting one of Venancio Bacons most outstanding students, Timoteo Maranga: ‘’We avoid and have eliminated the old practice of twirling the stick unnecessarily. Such wasteful and impractical movements only create openings and weakness in your defense. Such habits have no place in combat and only waste energy.“. In this way technical variety was combined with rational thinking, high tolerance to pain with the spirit of ‘Bahala na’ and the four of them with breathtaking speed. That is what made Balintawak what it was. To quote Maranga once more: ‘’This kind of Escrima is not for sports or competition. It is meant for combat!’[/FONT]

I have heard this before a credited to many of the seniors including Anciong himself for the comment about combat and sport.

There are one or two twirls but they are short and effective as stated to get the stick in place to block.


From the link:

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,Times NewRoman][SIZE=+2]A[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times,Times NewRoman]t the same time, the further development of Balintawak was primarily influenced by it’s principal rule of effectiveness. Bacon’s best students did not just keep what they had learnt but developed it on to make it even more effective and to adapt to the further development of other styles and fighting arts. Maranga for example said: ‘’Like any other weapon of war, we must constantly seek for improvement in application and effectiveness. We must therefore keep refining, modifying and improving our art.’’. That is why the Balintawak style that was taught by Bacon in the 60’s is no longer existant today. Paying attention to some examples shows to which extent Balintawak has influenced a lot of different styles.[/FONT]

Here is one of my pet peeves. If a senior or even someone from a lineage adds a term or a drill or a way to express something, they should document it. Not for their own ego, but to document for alter generations who did it and also to avoid the differences between the branches of the lineage and understand where and when they came about. It does not reflect any the effectiveness if it did not come from the founder.


From the link:

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,Times NewRoman][SIZE=+2]O[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times,Times NewRoman]ne of Mongcals students was Remy Presas who later founded the Modern Arnis style[/FONT]

GM Remy Presas started and trained a lot with GM Mongcal. The importance here is that they were both left handers.

Remy moved on to train with GM Maranga as well and then from there he was introduced to Anciong Bacon. He would train with Anciong when ever he could, including telling those who showed up at Ancoing's house that he was not feeling well that day and to come back another day.

From the link:

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,Times NewRoman][SIZE=+2]I[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times,Times NewRoman]n conclusion one can say that the original Balintawak / Kuwentada is no longer taught today.[/FONT]

If one assumes that the "original" of any system cannot survive past the founder then I can swallow this. Yet there are those who can learn a system and pass on the system as they were taught.

I personally think that there are many flavors out there, but somewhere one might find something close to original and close enough for them to recognize all the others families or branches.




I know you asked about the 36/24 and I went into a lot more detail. I wanted to do that for multiple reason. One to express the data I have. Two, to be able to give you a point of view why I have a problem with the 36/24 as I have a problem with many other parts of the article as well. I do not think the article was written to be intentionally false nor to be insulting to anyone.

Continue to train and I hope we can meet some day.

Thanks

 

[Mono]

Wow - thnaks a Lot for this lengthy Article!

Lots more then I asked about - but great to hear this Information from a "second Genration".

I personally could not immagine how this "36 Counter Concept" comes into play in Balintawak - thats why I asked and was hoping for smome "first/second" Hand Info...
I ve seen the "12 Counters to each Strike and 3 counters to each counter etc." Training Method in Styles like Cabales Serrada and Giron Eskrima - but from my Balintawak Training with People like Bobby Taboada, Bobby Tabimina, Nick Eizar, Dieter Roser (Atillo Line) and others I just could not see how it could fit...

Anyways, I looking forward to reading more from you and definately hope I get to meet you some time

Yours,
Philipp

P.S.: Looking at your described Progression 1-12 Basic (Abecedario), 1-12 Random (Seguidas), Corridas - it seems the "Grouping Systems" would fall into what you Called "Baby Corridas" since you are bejond the point of doing just 1-12 but still have a certain Guidline and preset Moves to further progress into the Corridas, where all aspects and Elements of the Groups are torn apart and used at will...
How do you see the Conection/method of Groupings compared to what you have learned from a "Non Grouping" point of view!?

One more thing about the Juan, Juanito, "Insert your own name here" concept;
How does the Situation of "Fighting a more skilled opponent" come into play?

 

[Brian Johns]

Rich,

Great post ! It was extremely informative. Keep up the good work !

Take care,
Brian Johns

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Nice post Rich as always!

 

[Rich Parsons]

Wow - thnaks a Lot for this lengthy Article!

Lots more then I asked about - but great to hear this Information from a "second Genration".

I personally could not immagine how this "36 Counter Concept" comes into play in Balintawak - thats why I asked and was hoping for smome "first/second" Hand Info...
I ve seen the "12 Counters to each Strike and 3 counters to each counter etc." Training Method in Styles like Cabales Serrada and Giron Eskrima - but from my Balintawak Training with People like Bobby Taboada, Bobby Tabimina, Nick Eizar, Dieter Roser (Atillo Line) and others I just could not see how it could fit...

Anyways, I looking forward to reading more from you and definately hope I get to meet you some time

Yours,
Philipp

P.S.: Looking at your described Progression 1-12 Basic (Abecedario), 1-12 Random (Seguidas), Corridas - it seems the "Grouping Systems" would fall into what you Called "Baby Corridas" since you are bejond the point of doing just 1-12 but still have a certain Guidline and preset Moves to further progress into the Corridas, where all aspects and Elements of the Groups are torn apart and used at will...
How do you see the Conection/method of Groupings compared to what you have learned from a "Non Grouping" point of view!?

One more thing about the Juan, Juanito, "Insert your own name here" concept;
How does the Situation of "Fighting a more skilled opponent" come into play?

Philipp et al,

You are welcome.

Looking at your described Progression 1-12 Basic (Abecedario), 1-12 Random (Seguidas), Corridas - it seems the "Grouping Systems" would fall into what you Called "Baby Corridas" since you are bejond the point of doing just 1-12 but still have a certain Guidline and preset Moves to further progress into the Corridas, where all aspects and Elements of the Groups are torn apart and used at will...
How do you see the Conection/method of Groupings compared to what you have learned from a "Non Grouping" point of view!?

The grouping method versus Non grouping. This has been discussed by many on which is better. The problem I have is that I have never trained the Grouping method so I cannot speak with knowledge. I can only go from what others Like Robert (* a member here and FMATalk *) have posted.

I see the relationship you are trying to make of "baby Corraidas" versus Grouping Method, but I think I might not have been clear. I can go into and out of Seguidas into Corraidas with new techniques in a random fashion. This is the teaching method I learned. So while from up high it might look the same I think it is not. I think the Grouping Methodology is more based upon the discussions I have had with Robert. I understand that the groupings will be taught which show new techniques and certain flow patterns. I also understand that they intersect in technqiues and the senior students learn to tie them together. and branck back and forth and at some point it is random. To me not having trained in it is just a different path to the same goal. I cannot say one is absolutely better than the other. I can say that I would expect some people would do better in one versus the other depending upon how they learn.

Robert and others who train and teach the Grouping methodology, if I am wrong I am sorry, and I hope you will chime in and educate us more on where I was incorrect.

One more thing about the Juan, Juanito, "Insert your own name here" concept;
How does the Situation of "Fighting a more skilled opponent" come into play?

Good Question. And some of the other students of Manong Ted would point at him and say "but that (insert Name Here) is better than me." Manong Ted would smile and say yes, he his. but until you know he is you assume he knows everything you know. So you are cautious and work your timing and do not offer him anything to take advantage of until you can see if you are better than them. (* Note: A person can be better than someone on a given day or moment, or if the people involved do not understand one is teaching and the other is sparring. *) You are always prepared to use your back ups and always prepared to play your game but the cautious one. This leads sometimes to the you strike first no your strike first issue. If practicing with another student of about the same level or real close one just needs to offer and let the other react. This is practice and recognize it is practice and allow the person to move and you both can learn. Going slow helps this a lot. Timing and speed are not the same thing.

The allowing the student to react and or move is the hardest part of being an instructor. Changing your timing so the opponent or student can get a move and practice a said move without changing the speed.

More later.

 

[Robert Klampfer]

Someone said my name three times so, I was compelled to appear...

I think I understand where Mono is coming from and also that his comparison to the bridge between seguidas and corridas seems fairly accurate. I kind of thought the same thing while reading your post, Rich.

The groups are taught after the defenses and counters to the 12 strikes are able to be done at random - what we refer to as "breaking the pattern". The groups are initially done in sequential progression (1 - 5), then out-of-sequence (at random) (1, 3, 5, 2, 4, etc.), then completely torn apart. After group 5, a student is expected to be able to fully protect themselves in training so, less emphasis is placed on guiding the student. Pushing, pulling, butting, and disarming all come after the groups. Again, everything is taught sequentially, then out-of-sequence, then torn apart and executed completely at random. One eventually learns to be able to slide into and out of these various modes, which leads to being able to essentially create techniques in the midst of all that movement. The student is given the tools and materials so, they should be able to build something. :hammer: It's not an easy skill to master though, regardless of how it's presented.

I've had some exposure to ungrouped Balintawak and have found it to be very similar at a certain level to the grouped method. If you know one method, you'll be able to watch the other and recognize the movements. I teach the grouped method because that's how I learned. I think both methods have their merits. Like Rich, I say two paths to the same goal.

Robert

 

[Rich Parsons]

Someone said my name three times so, I was compelled to appear...

I think I understand where Mono is coming from and also that his comparison to the bridge between seguidas and corridas seems fairly accurate. I kind of thought the same thing while reading your post, Rich.

The groups are taught after the defenses and counters to the 12 strikes are able to be done at random - what we refer to as "breaking the pattern". The groups are initially done in sequential progression (1 - 5), then out-of-sequence (at random) (1, 3, 5, 2, 4, etc.), then completely torn apart. After group 5, a student is expected to be able to fully protect themselves in training so, less emphasis is placed on guiding the student. Pushing, pulling, butting, and disarming all come after the groups. Again, everything is taught sequentially, then out-of-sequence, then torn apart and executed completely at random. One eventually learns to be able to slide into and out of these various modes, which leads to being able to essentially create techniques in the midst of all that movement. The student is given the tools and materials so, they should be able to build something. :hammer: It's not an easy skill to master though, regardless of how it's presented.

I've had some exposure to ungrouped Balintawak and have found it to be very similar at a certain level to the grouped method. If you know one method, you'll be able to watch the other and recognize the movements. I teach the grouped method because that's how I learned. I think both methods have their merits. Like Rich, I say two paths to the same goal.

Robert

Robert,

Thanks. I still think the Grouping methods and the groups you reference 1-5 are more structured then the non grouping method and the entry into Corraidas. This is the 1-2 out of order Seguidas and then throw in a new technique to see how the student reacts. If they get it then good, if nto then stop and work the timing with them again and then work them through again to give them another shot at it. One may need to take the student through Seguidas to another technique and then back into Seguidas. Soon after this after the initial feed by the instructor it should all be random and no patterns. The teacher is "agoking"/guiding the student through to check their timing and their techniques.

Thanks

 

[Robert Klampfer]

This is the 1-2 out of order Seguidas and then throw in a new technique to see how the student reacts. If they get it then good, if nto then stop and work the timing with them again and then work them through again to give them another shot at it. One may need to take the student through Seguidas to another technique and then back into Seguidas.

It's difficult for me to envision without a frame of reference. So, I'll take your word for it! :cheers:

Robert

 

[Mono]

Someone said my name three times so, I was compelled to appear...

I think I understand where Mono is coming from and also that his comparison to the bridge between seguidas and corridas seems fairly accurate. I kind of thought the same thing while reading your post, Rich.

The groups are taught after the defenses and counters to the 12 strikes are able to be done at random - what we refer to as "breaking the pattern". The groups are initially done in sequential progression (1 - 5), then out-of-sequence (at random) (1, 3, 5, 2, 4, etc.), then completely torn apart. After group 5, a student is expected to be able to fully protect themselves in training so, less emphasis is placed on guiding the student. Pushing, pulling, butting, and disarming all come after the groups. Again, everything is taught sequentially, then out-of-sequence, then torn apart and executed completely at random. One eventually learns to be able to slide into and out of these various modes, which leads to being able to essentially create techniques in the midst of all that movement. The student is given the tools and materials so, they should be able to build something. :hammer: It's not an easy skill to master though, regardless of how it's presented.

I've had some exposure to ungrouped Balintawak and have found it to be very similar at a certain level to the grouped method. If you know one method, you'll be able to watch the other and recognize the movements. I teach the grouped method because that's how I learned. I think both methods have their merits. Like Rich, I say two paths to the same goal.

Robert

Thanks Robert for sharing your thoughts - I have also been exposed to both methods - with my main training (still limited compared to most of you guys here ) having been Groupings...

Great to hear other peoples thoughts -especialy from many of you who have been with Balintawak for quite a while!

Looking forward to reading more!

Yours,
Philipp "Mono" Wolf

 

[MacJ_007]

While I have watched video of GM(?) Bobby Tabimina, I can see where he did train with Anciong Bacon based upon the movement of my instructor who also trained and learned only from Anciong. But I can also see movement that shows he learned from the Villisin and Velez lineage as well first. And no disrespect meant to any of those mentioned, but it is my understanding that Anciong called it new so that Bobby would want to learn it and not to take anything away from what he had learned from his previous instructors.

Rich,

Why put a question mark on GM? Do you question him being a GM? Sir Bob Tabimina and GM Bobby Taboada both have the same answer. They created their own Balintawak so they have the right to call themselves Grandmasters of their own art. Do you question the skills? In which aspect? Sir Bob will be here in the US this year hopefully, so you can test him and find your answers.

I cannot change your belief regarding tatay Anciong calling his art new/evolved, if that was inculcated to you by Grandmaster Ted Buot. But being a Balintawak practitioner you should know that we are taught to evolve. What makes you think that we as students can evolve and the Grandmaster, the creator of our art could not evolve? We have discussed this on the phone before and you clearly said that we differ in our distance and the way we grab/hold/clip. Plus, I have seen your video so I can say that, we do have some differences. I am not going by with what my master said. I am going by logic, and logic tells me the truth, that regardless of tatay Anciong's age, health, education, etc. he can evolve and so can we. We as balintawak practitioners, be it random or grouping, will evolve in our own way, but the core teaching of Balintawak will always be there.

We should focus more on how to reach, each of our master's level. If we can't do that, then might as well call ourselves watered-down balintawak. Did any of our master's reached tatay Anciong's level? Maybe, maybe not. If not, then maybe what Sir Bob said is true, that the real Balintawak is indeed an endangered specie.

Jojo

 

[arnisador]

It's a change adjusting from Ted Buot's approach--no titles, no certificates--to a more formal system. That's probably the issue.

 

[MacJ_007]

We don't have certificates, no ranks, no belts.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Rich,

Why put a question mark on GM? Do you question him being a GM? Sir Bob Tabimina and GM Bobby Taboada both have the same answer. They created their own Balintawak so they have the right to call themselves Grandmasters of their own art. Do you question the skills? In which aspect? Sir Bob will be here in the US this year hopefully, so you can test him and find your answers.

I cannot change your belief regarding tatay Anciong calling his art new/evolved, if that was inculcated to you by Grandmaster Ted Buot. But being a Balintawak practitioner you should know that we are taught to evolve. What makes you think that we as students can evolve and the Grandmaster, the creator of our art could not evolve? We have discussed this on the phone before and you clearly said that we differ in our distance and the way we grab/hold/clip. Plus, I have seen your video so I can say that, we do have some differences. I am not going by with what my master said. I am going by logic, and logic tells me the truth, that regardless of tatay Anciong's age, health, education, etc. he can evolve and so can we. We as balintawak practitioners, be it random or grouping, will evolve in our own way, but the core teaching of Balintawak will always be there.

We should focus more on how to reach, each of our master's level. If we can't do that, then might as well call ourselves watered-down balintawak. Did any of our master's reached tatay Anciong's level? Maybe, maybe not. If not, then maybe what Sir Bob said is true, that the real Balintawak is indeed an endangered specie.

Jojo

Jojo.

I meant no disrespect to Sir Bobby Tabimina. I used GM with Question mark not about skill as to not sure he he choose to use the title. I have trained with those that smile at the title and just go back to teaching. The "?" was meant that I did not know if he used the title or not.

As to New, the video I saw that was supposed to contain new looked like what Manong (GM) Ted Buot (* And I added the title of GM *), but was nothing more that what I was shown by someone who had trained with Manong Anciong before Sir Bobby did.

As to meeting Sir Bobby, that would be great and I would like that. If he thinks I need to be scolded for my comments, I will listen. I hope he would do the favor in return and allow me to continue the discourse.

As to testing people. I am not the judge final. If Sir Bobby says he is a GM or his students say that is his title then I am cool with that. I have not been told one way or the other.


As to evolution, I know this is true. Stories from Manong Ted about how Anciong would say you are on your own "kid" or he would just smile in that knowing way and let Manong Ted show what he had learned by applying the principals and basics.

I myself have done this even to others who trained longer than I have in Balintawak. They would say I was not shown this. They would run to out instructor and ask him what I was doing wrong. Manong Ted would smile and laugh and say, Rich is Fine. He applied a "single" from here to this new location because his timing fit.

I never said that Manong Anciong could not evolve.

I never said that Sir Bobby did not learn from Manong Anciong.

What I have been told and read is that Sir Bobby learned elsewhere (GM) Villasin and (GM) Velez lineage and then trained with Manong Anciong. From what I have seen of the videos online, I see the similarities between some moves he has and the Villasin/Velez Lineage and then I see similar things to what Manong Ted teaches as well. Nothing was there that was so new. Maybe It was not in the video(s), and that could be the case, hence why I am more than willing to talk to the man in person.

As to my Video, any that is online is very broken down or not Balintawak but Modern Arnis. Yes, the two styles are different and I know the differences for some are hard to see but to me it is clear in how I approach and teach and execute.

As to reaching the previous instructor's level, I agree. I teach some privates. I work with some others who trained with Manong Ted, and I also practice left handed myself for when I get a left handed student.

 

[Rich Parsons]

We don't have certificates, no ranks, no belts.

We have two states.

The difference in those ranks is when the instructor gives you permission to teach openly (* not just privately to a couple of friends for person practice *) and not having the permission of your instructor.

In all other cases, I agree there is no rank, official titles, certificates or paperwork.

 

[MacJ_007]

Rich,

Im glad we had that cleared. Sir Bob does'nt even call himself GM, rather he calls himself as plain Bobby or when training, the Stimulus. We are not really fond of ranks. I personally sometimes ask Sir Bob maybe we should have at least an ID to verify that we are indeed members of Tabimina Balintawak. But he still does'nt like that idea. So I have come to the conclusion, when a time will come when people say, How will you prove that you are indeed a member of Tabimina Balintawak? The answer is simple, your skills will speak for itself.

Sir Bob will be here hopefully around May - July to visit his son Chad Tabimina in Florida and to visit me here in California. Hopefully we will be able to visit you and GM Ted Buot in Michigan. I know he has to meet up with GM Bobby Taboada and his students in North Carolina.

Jojo

 

[MacJ_007]

We have two states.

The difference in those ranks is when the instructor gives you permission to teach openly (* not just privately to a couple of friends for person practice *) and not having the permission of your instructor.

In all other cases, I agree there is no rank, official titles, certificates or paperwork.

The same with us. I remember we were eating with Sir Bob and his Adavanced students/Assistant Instructors and they paid for the food we ate. Then Sir Bob said, "This is how we welcome you as one of the instructors of Tabimina Balintawak." I was shocked, I did'nt expect it at all.