That's scary - wing chun guy getting belted video

[Ubermint]

The guy just sucked. That was some of the worst Wing Chun I've ever seen. I don't even want to call it Wing Chun. First of all, the guy had no stance or footwork. Second, Beneteau just stood there with his chin out and his hands near his hips. Unless you've got Sugar Ray Leonard's hands you aren't going to keep yourself from getting hit by any competant striker. Cancio should have walked right up and attacked the guy. No squaring off, no sizing up the opponent, just hit him. Make him deal with your aggression. I don't know what lineage Cancio studies, but he obviously never learned to engage an opponent.

I saw a wing chun guy try that once. It actually made it even worse for him, as the shot arrested his foreward momentum and his kick left him unbalanced enough that he was slammed. He was RNC'd in less than a minute.

It was an older Battlecade promotion, and the slammer and choker was Igor Zinoviev.

T Corporal Hicks: If you wanto say someone trains "for self defense" you have to articulate what you mean, because the vast majority of "self defense" training is crap.
A dead pattern does not magically become functional if you start wearing camo and comically practicing "street awareness".
In other words you can fool yourself into thinking you are training something useful.

In other words: I will concede that an MMA match is not a STREETfight (and let's remember the inherent dorkiness of the word "streetfight"). If a non-MMA fight is 100% we will conclude that MMA contains between 50% and 75% of the elements contained in a streetfight. There is actual stress and fighting, punching, kicking, kneeing, elbowing and all kinds of grappling with few to no rules.
Now contrast that with TMA training. Solo form practice is 5%-15%

Olympic TKD sparring is 10%

Judo, boxing, wrestling are maybe 40%.

I've never seen RBSD/"street application" training rise above 25%.

In my opinion, "street" training is a dead end.

 

[47MartialMan]

The age old story, it does not matter how well trained at Wing Chun (or any other Ma for that matter) if you are facing a fighting method that is unusual to you ie you have not truely encountered before, then you are going to have some trouble, which is why simply training Wing Chun to Wing chun will leave you deficient. You need to step out and taste other MA's. I train with 2 guys one who studies JKD and another who has training in wrestling, Choy lay Fut, and Kickboxing, it makes a refreshing change from training with WC players all the time.

Yes, I have to agree that versitility is the best way. In a matter of fact, even TMAs were a mix during their era of introduction.

 

[Corporal Hicks]

I saw a wing chun guy try that once. It actually made it even worse for him, as the shot arrested his foreward momentum and his kick left him unbalanced enough that he was slammed. He was RNC'd in less than a minute.

It was an older Battlecade promotion, and the slammer and choker was Igor Zinoviev.

T Corporal Hicks: If you wanto say someone trains "for self defense" you have to articulate what you mean, because the vast majority of "self defense" training is crap.
A dead pattern does not magically become functional if you start wearing camo and comically practicing "street awareness".
In other words you can fool yourself into thinking you are training something useful.

In other words: I will concede that an MMA match is not a STREETfight (and let's remember the inherent dorkiness of the word "streetfight"). If a non-MMA fight is 100% we will conclude that MMA contains between 50% and 75% of the elements contained in a streetfight. There is actual stress and fighting, punching, kicking, kneeing, elbowing and all kinds of grappling with few to no rules.
Now contrast that with TMA training. Solo form practice is 5%-15%

Olympic TKD sparring is 10%

Judo, boxing, wrestling are maybe 40%.

I've never seen RBSD/"street application" training rise above 25%.

In my opinion, "street" training is a dead end.

Well firstly, RBSD does not include 'dead patterns' so what are you talking about?
If you have never seen RBSD rise about 25% in your opinion then you really have not seen enough real RBSD.
MMA UFC has more than 'few to no rules' look here: http://www.ufc.tv/learnUFC/rulesUfc.asp
31 in all, quite frankly most of the variables involved in a street fight.

'There is actual stress and fighting, punching, kicking, kneeing, elbowing and all kinds of grappling',
Yeah thats not just restricted to MMA you know, I believe most contact sports and arts have some elements or if not all of them.

'Street training is a dead end', depends what your training for and how your training for it. The RBSD I do involves as realistically as possible situations, that means normal street clothes, going out into the street to pratice it, having a guy in one the hittable suits which you can actually lay the crap into him. You get everbody else to yell everthing obscene they can at you and about you no matter what, then from there they start the scenerios, people running at you, getting into your face, snarling, hard proper shoving in your body, imtimidating and trying to imtimdate you. This is real as you can get in training. We had my instructor there with us and to the ladies he was telling them to their face snarling that he was going to rape them and trying to get it as real as possible, trying to get them on the floor by grabbing them, flooring them, and they had to hit back, since he had that suit on it didnt really hurt them, but they could throw everything at them, now that gets your adrealine pumping. And its hands on stuff, with mats I admit and a safe word to say if it all gets to much. Shoving, hitting to the body is included(not the face obviously, though they did compensate later for that by getting people to wear sparring elements so we were trying to compensate for sucker punching, though not full force).
Thats just a small part of what we do, there are no formalites, and everything is a real as it can be in training. The ones you sound like you've been to include people fighting imaginary opponents and doing Kata.
I dont care what you say about UFC and MMA, I'll agree that it comes the closest Martial Art wise towards self defence however RBSD IMO and self defence street fighting training comes closer, simply because thats what its designed to do.
I dont think you should catergorise them into 50-75% UFC reality, 10% Olympic TKD, because street fights dont work like that, circumstances change all the time. In one street fight you may have damaged your hands, rendering anybody who is a boxer useless compared to somebody who can use their legs. A crude way to put it, but in essence it could be true!
Anyway dont mean offence
Regards

 

[47MartialMan]

MMA UFC has more than 'few to no rules' look here: http://www.ufc.tv/learnUFC/rulesUfc.asp
31 in all, quite frankly most of the variables involved in a street fight.

I had always said, and will always say, UFC is not so "ultimate".

Under control and regulayed fighting, has hardly a bearing on street confrontation where each situation differs.

I grow weary of grappling practitoners whom claim that most fights end pn the ground.

Whereas my past experiences and observations, per running a bar and being in bad places, had shown otherwise.

 

[Corporal Hicks]

I had always said, and will always say, UFC is not so "ultimate".

Under control and regulayed fighting, has hardly a bearing on street confrontation where each situation differs.

I grow weary of grappling practitoners whom claim that most fights end pn the ground.

Whereas my past experiences and observations, per running a bar and being in bad places, had shown otherwise.

I guess most fights end up with somebody on the ground at the least! Unfortunately getting the monkeys gonads kicked out of them!

 

[47MartialMan]

I guess most fights end up with somebody on the ground at the least! Unfortunately getting the monkeys gonads kicked out of them!

....but not in my lifetime from past experiences and observations.....very rare!!!!

 

[Ubermint]

Well firstly, RBSD does not include 'dead patterns' so what are you talking about?

Compliant training of street lethal eyeboinks and nut kicks is a dead pattern.

If you have never seen RBSD rise about 25% in your opinion then you really have not seen enough real RBSD.

Show me then.

MMA UFC has more than 'few to no rules' look here: http://www.ufc.tv/learnUFC/rulesUfc.asp
31 in all, quite frankly most of the variables involved in a street fight.

1: Do you seriously believe that the UFC is the only MMA promotion out there?
2: Watch any "real street fights" video. It almost always looks like bad boxing and bad wrestling.

'There is actual stress and fighting, punching, kicking, kneeing, elbowing and all kinds of grappling',
Yeah thats not just restricted to MMA you know, I believe most contact sports and arts have some elements or if not all of them.

Correct. That's why combat sports practicioners do well in MMA.

'Street training is a dead end', depends what your training for and how your training for it. The RBSD I do involves as realistically as possible situations, that means normal street clothes, going out into the street to pratice it, having a guy in one the hittable suits which you can actually lay the crap into him.

1: Attempting to replicate a "street environment" is not only futile, it's a little geeky, don't you think?
2: Use of those full body suits is dead by definition. The guy getting hit has no idea wether any technique actually hurt him. He's just guessing, and often with a favorable bias towards his system and/or a desire to not make the techniques look bad. It's a guesswork game.

You get everbody else to yell everthing obscene they can at you and about you no matter what, then from there they start the scenerios, people running at you,

...Did you just try to use the fact that your audience swears at you as a selling point?

I mean jesus, that sounds like how we roughouse after training is finished. If that's really stressful for you, it's time to reevaluate the level of intensity you work at.

getting into your face, snarling, hard proper shoving in your body, imtimidating and trying to imtimdate you.

So basically you try to imitate Sabertooth and think that makes what you do realistic?
You could have all that aggresion and intensity if you'd just glove up and strike or roll hard, without the unnecesary elements of improvisational theater.

This is real as you can get in training.

No. That is live action role playing with Krotty on the side.

We had my instructor there with us and to the ladies he was telling them to their face snarling that he was going to rape them and trying to get it as real as possible, trying to get them on the floor by grabbing them, flooring them, and they had to hit back, since he had that suit on it didnt really hurt them, but they could throw everything at them, now that gets your adrealine pumping.

Wouldn't actually rolling with lots of intensity using proven techniques (umpa escape, shrimping, guard sweeps and kicking, other defensive grappling) with someone who can actually grapple be a more efficient use of your time?
I can see what you're saying being used to overcome a psychological compulsion against fighting back, but as far as passing on or testing technique, it can't work very well, because of that aforementioned guessing the guy in the suit has to do as to wether it "worked".
In MMA, there is no guesswork. It either works or it doesn't.

And its hands on stuff, with mats I admit and a safe word to say if it all gets to much. Shoving, hitting to the body is included(not the face obviously, though they did compensate later for that by getting people to wear sparring elements so we were trying to compensate for sucker punching, though not full force).

You're starting to get the idea, but you're still stuck in the "simulation" mode. You're working on trying to replicate a scenario, which is much less efficient than developing a universally applicable athletic base through hard sparring and conditioning.

Thats just a small part of what we do, there are no formalites, and everything is a real as it can be in training. The ones you sound like you've been to include people fighting imaginary opponents and doing Kata.
I dont care what you say about UFC and MMA, I'll agree that it comes the closest Martial Art wise towards self defence however RBSD IMO and self defence street fighting training comes closer, simply because thats what its designed to do.

But my whole point is that even if something's designed to do something that doesn't mean it is at all capable of doing it.

Or, as matt thornton writes in the problem with street training:

When it comes to "street" training, combatives, or RBSD, there seems to exist a fallacious argument. The old street" versus "sport" training argument. The false premise being it must be one or the other, that the training methods are mutually exclusive.

I dont think you should catergorise them into 50-75% UFC reality, 10% Olympic TKD, because street fights dont work like that, circumstances change all the time. In one street fight you may have damaged your hands, rendering anybody who is a boxer useless compared to somebody who can use their legs. A crude way to put it, but in essence it could be true!
Anyway dont mean offence
Regards

I'm sorry if I seem like i'm generalizing but, well, that's exactly what i'm doing, statistically. I'm speaking of probabilities. I don't want to come off as condescending or arrogant, but I may when I try to highlight some things which have been specifically proven on publicly available video.

 

[Corporal Hicks]

Compliant training of street lethal eyeboinks and nut kicks is a dead pattern.


Show me then.


1: Do you seriously believe that the UFC is the only MMA promotion out there?
2: Watch any "real street fights" video. It almost always looks like bad boxing and bad wrestling.


Correct. That's why combat sports practicioners do well in MMA.

1: Attempting to replicate a "street environment" is not only futile, it's a little geeky, don't you think?
2: Use of those full body suits is dead by definition. The guy getting hit has no idea wether any technique actually hurt him. He's just guessing, and often with a favorable bias towards his system and/or a desire to not make the techniques look bad. It's a guesswork game.


...Did you just try to use the fact that your audience swears at you as a selling point?

I mean jesus, that sounds like how we roughouse after training is finished. If that's really stressful for you, it's time to reevaluate the level of intensity you work at.


So basically you try to imitate Sabertooth and think that makes what you do realistic?
You could have all that aggresion and intensity if you'd just glove up and strike or roll hard, without the unnecesary elements of improvisational theater.


No. That is live action role playing with Krotty on the side.


Wouldn't actually rolling with lots of intensity using proven techniques (umpa escape, shrimping, guard sweeps and kicking, other defensive grappling) with someone who can actually grapple be a more efficient use of your time?
I can see what you're saying being used to overcome a psychological compulsion against fighting back, but as far as passing on or testing technique, it can't work very well, because of that aforementioned guessing the guy in the suit has to do as to wether it "worked".
In MMA, there is no guesswork. It either works or it doesn't.


You're starting to get the idea, but you're still stuck in the "simulation" mode. You're working on trying to replicate a scenario, which is much less efficient than developing a universally applicable athletic base through hard sparring and conditioning.


But my whole point is that even if something's designed to do something that doesn't mean it is at all capable of doing it.

Or, as matt thornton writes in the problem with street training:



I'm sorry if I seem like i'm generalizing but, well, that's exactly what i'm doing, statistically. I'm speaking of probabilities. I don't want to come off as condescending or arrogant, but I may when I try to highlight some things which have been specifically proven on publicly available video.

Yeah I take your point with what your saying. The fact was that we are trying to simulate it, to try and make it real, to deal with the stress, and the phsiological arousal.
I'm sorry if I wrote or came across as meaning it to pratice our techniques, techniques in self defence are going to be gross motor movements unless your techinique is honed.
I dont see why there is so much of an emphasis on grappling, you say that you've watched 'street videos' but I hardly see alot of wrestling or grappling, I just seem to see alot of sucker punching.
A grant you the point that when doing RBSD or training that grappling is an essential part and is usefull especially if you end up on the floor, but the whole point in training is that I dont want to end up on the floor, I want to be able to get away not wrestle or grapple them into submission, I know that may not be the case and they may grab me first, but the point is unless they do an immediate take down, Im going to try damn well not to let them take me down.
Thanks for the link, its really informative, cheers!

"You're working on trying to replicate a scenario, which is much less efficient than developing a universally applicable athletic base through hard sparring and conditioning."

I wouldnt entirelly agree there, good basis sure. But what about police officers or bouncers and security? I'll admit that most LEO training is short and rather crap however I'd rather but my life in the hands of the Police than have it in the hands of and MMA athlete.
Self defence is nothing to do with sparring, that is annoying idea to. Just because your a great sparrer and have lots of conditioning training does not make your prepared for self defence, maybe gives you a distinct advantage over others, it still takes the same amount of force to hit somebody in the jaw and K.O them as well as smacking somebody in the groin or other vital points. Unless thats all you meant as being 'advantaged' by coming from that kind of atheltic base.
Anyway, nice debating, you've opened my eyes some more!
Kind regards

 

[dmax999]

My 2 cents on the video.

The WC guy did nothing once on the ground. From guard to side mount to full mount in under five secs, the WC guy never trained a minute or even watched a video to know what would happen.

Second, he let the wrestler shoot under his arms, when I did WC we trained to stop that, or at least get a hit at that point. Had the WC guy trained for half an hour against a wrestler he would have done much better.

Problem is most MAs are not prepaired to fight the guy willing to take a strike to gain better position. Most train in point sparring where that wouldn't be a successful attack, and here it showed. Perfect example of how unrealistic sparring or no sparring means all your training is a waste.

 

[arnisador]

he let the wrestler shoot under his arms, when I did WC we trained to stop that

How?

Problem is most MAs are not prepaired to fight the guy willing to take a strike to gain better position. Most train in point sparring where that wouldn't be a successful attack, and here it showed.

Yup. Although, Wing Chun in particular isn't really known for point sparring, is it?

 

[Ubermint]

My response to this just kinda...dissapeared.

Yeah I take your point with what your saying. The fact was that we are trying to simulate it, to try and make it real, to deal with the stress, and the phsiological arousal.

And what i'm saying is, forget attempting to "simulate" a street confrontation with swearing, street clothes, etc. for the moment. I think that article addresses the problems with that approach. Instead, work on the fundamental skill, the delivery system. If you don't have a delivery system, it's no use going through any kind of scenario.
Do drills specific to fighting at your range, with aliveness.

Two examples:
1: After working jabs and defenses technically, drill where one person can only jab and the other can only defend, so that each has a goal to work towards. Make sure they're bouncing, moving around, good head movement, shoulders hunched, hands high. Switch roles after a few minutes.
2: After going through mantaining mount and escaping it, A starts with mount on B. B tries to escape, A tries to mantain mount. Switch after a few minutes.

Those are still drills, but they're drills that develop the delivery system you'll use in an actual confrontation.

I'm sorry if I wrote or came across as meaning it to pratice our techniques, techniques in self defence are going to be gross motor movements unless your techinique is honed.
I dont see why there is so much of an emphasis on grappling, you say that you've watched 'street videos' but I hardly see alot of wrestling or grappling, I just seem to see alot of sucker punching.

Try "backyard brawls", "real street fights caught on tape", those kind of videos, you can download them at kazaa or buy them at suncoast.

A grant you the point that when doing RBSD or training that grappling is an essential part and is usefull especially if you end up on the floor, but the whole point in training is that I dont want to end up on the floor,

And I may not want to stand and box with a dude, but crap happens.

I want to be able to get away not wrestle or grapple them into submission, I know that may not be the case and they may grab me first, but the point is unless they do an immediate take down, Im going to try damn well not to let them take me down.

Ok. But can you actually grapple? Saying that you don't want to end up on the ground is all fine and dandy, but if you've never grappled with someone legit before, you won't have much of a choice come crunch time.

Thanks for the link, its really informative, cheers!

"You're working on trying to replicate a scenario, which is much less efficient than developing a universally applicable athletic base through hard sparring and conditioning."

I wouldnt entirelly agree there, good basis sure. But what about police officers or bouncers and security? I'll admit that most LEO training is short and rather crap however I'd rather but my life in the hands of the Police than have it in the hands of and MMA athlete.

Bouncers and policia are special cases, and may indeed require a lot more "scenario" training.

Self defence is nothing to do with sparring, that is annoying idea to.

Sparring is not an OMG RIILL STRET FAIT, but it is one of the best ways to develop the delivery system you will use in a fight, and should be done every class.

Just because your a great sparrer and have lots of conditioning training does not make your prepared for self defence, maybe gives you a distinct advantage over others, it still takes the same amount of force to hit somebody in the jaw and K.O them as well as smacking somebody in the groin or other vital points.

Technical memorization of "Deadly" techniques is inferior training in comparison to "Alive", athletic, competitive training. If you don't spar hard and regularly, you can know all the heart exploder points in the world, you will still get ground and pounded.
This is not a theory. It is a proven fact.

Unless thats all you meant as being 'advantaged' by coming from that kind of atheltic base.
Anyway, nice debating, you've opened my eyes some more!
Kind regards

That's what I love to hear.

 

[dmax999]

You get your hit in by following your target, as he drops before the shoot you drop your angle of attacks to follow. You don't pretend his head is still 6 feet up when he begins his shoot or you get what we saw. You move your arms and point them at his head now three feet up, as he moves into range begin your chain punches. This probably won't stop the shoot but at least you have some showing in the ring instead of none.

As for point sparring, my comment was about MAs in general. My WC school was good with sparring, from numerous videos I've seen there are WC schools that are poor at sparring (Not neccessarly this video).

 

[Sal Collaziano]

A good, strong knee to the face/head as he was coming in might have helped...

 

[Ubermint]

Only in an "antigrappling" instructional where a ridiculous grappling strawman shoots from ten feet away, bending at the waist but not at the knees.

In reality, you catch behind his knees as you shoot, with your head either to the outside of their legs and you shoot from close range.

It almost never works unless you've previously sprawled and secured underhooks or thai clinch. NHB events bear this out.

 

[Jam_master]

Hi. Have been doing wing chun for a year. Can anyone please explain this video? http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php?name=Links&file=viewlinkinfo&id=82

Do any of you cross train in grappling?

Thanks guys.

The guy didn't use any wing chun what's so ever except for a wing chun stance and that's it! After that he just fell into the grapplers game and did not maintain his own. He was a poor fighter period. The art had nothing to do with it in this case since he didn't use or display any skill or technique to comment on.

 

[lulflo]

That guy needed to get in there to see what he needed to work on, well, he now knows.

Anyway, did you scroll to the right one under the video to see the next fight, I would suggest it because it was brutal.

Sorry if off topic on that second part, but you gotta see it.

Farang - Larry

 

[lulflo]

That guy needed to get into the ring to figure out his weaknesses and he sure did, bet he won't be so unprepared next time (if he's anything like most of us).


Also, you have to hit the next arrow to see a terrible sight (the next button is below the video w/TKD vs MMA)

 

[brothershaw]

To echo previous statements the guy did nothing, he didnt even try to move to the side when the guy charged him. Him losing is no surprise. He may have choked up, causing such a poor performance ( not to say he would have won if didnt freeze up).