Testing And Ranking Standards

[MJS]

Mike,

One of the things having been in martial arts for 44 years and arnis for 30, I can tell the depth of someone's knowledge by spending a few hours with them. This might not be real to you but I am looking beneath the surface (number of techniques known, demonstrated, etc.) and can feel immediately (by physical contact) how far they have progressed.

As an example is the person doing a disarm with strength and speed or do they really have the leverage aspect of it down.

Example: when you do a flow drill what is their body position as well as their response if you step out of the box?

I can go on and on. Ask Brian re my skills, both applied and observational. That should handle any question you any have about me in this regard.

If you want to see how I think then you should get my book Filipino Martial Arts: The Core Basics, Structure & Essentials from my website. This will give you great insight as to how I look at things. Brian's got one. You can get him to tell you about it.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

A senior, or someone with adequate experience, can evaluate someone pretty quickly. After many years of consistent training and teaching I know that i can evaluate where someone is at after working with them and watching them. It actually doesn't take that long to see where someone is at when you have the experience to do it. This is not experience that you can get by spending 24 / 7 on a forum and talking about it and criticizing. Being a critic is a different skill set. There are also seniors I see in other arts such as kenpo like Larry Tatum, Lee Wedlake, Huk Planas, Joe Palanzo, etc... that can quite easily evaluate students without having to work with them every day for 20 years. It's called experience and understanding the art.
MJS, if you don't have Dan's book you should get it. I think you will learn a lot.

Hi guys,

This may be something that we'll have to agree to disagree on, but I'll comment on a few things.

The book...yes, Brian let me borrow his copy. Alot to read there, but I'm working my way thru.

Training and gaining experience...yes, I train weekly with my teacher. IMO, this is the only way to get this...by training under someone. Of course, as I said in a few other posts, its one thing to say that you're training with someone, and another to say that you've trained with someone. IMO, if someone isn't training under someone, someone who can help improve knowledge, well.......that pretty much speaks for itself.

During my transition to my new Kenpo school, I trained weekly, both privately and in group classes, to learn how that school taught, to learn their material, even though it was very similar to what I did before. After having trained for 25yrs, my teacher fully new what I was capable of, however, instead of watching me for 1 day or a few hours, we did things the way he taught them.

IMO, if someone is inactive, meaning not training with anyone either in the state they reside in or out of state, especially when those sources are out there, I have a hard time seeing how someone could forget about ethics, and test or be tested, regardless of the experience of the tester. I'm not a part of Larry Tatums organization, so while I would gain something from his seminar, I couldn't, with a clear conscience, ask him to test me.

What would either of us gain, by having him test me? So I could say that I was tested and ranked one degree higher by Larry Tatum? So that Larry himself, could now say that he has a person that he promoted, on the east coast?

 

[Brian Johns]

When it comes to my group, I usually follow the curriculum set forth by the IMAF. While it is incumbent on me to teach the material in a fashion that they can grasp it and that they listen to me, the most important part of teaching, for me, is one on one training. For me, this is a chance to not only evaluate the student's technical understanding of the material but also run a diagnostic on their body movement, alignment, and structure. Yes, the same stuff that Dan talks about in his book. I absolutely believe in hands on instruction. That is key for me before I promote any of my students. I can spot problem areas pretty quickly and rectify them.

I have seen the results of instructors who elect to teach exclusively in a "group" format and without hands on, one on one training. I can tell you that that format does not work as well with the inclusion of one on one training.

For what it's worth.

Regards,
Brian

 

[Mark Lynn]

Hi Mike,

No problems as I have only promoted people who have had quite some time in the art. Jaye Spiro, Mark Lynn, Don Kerstetter, and Frank Shekosky are the ones I have promoted. Each of them have been in the art for quite a while. Only Don is affiliated with me now.

Yours,
Dan

Dan

First off let me thank you for testing me in Modern Arnis.

For every one else since Dan did test me for an Lakan degree in Modern Arnis, I'll give you my perspective, because I think it has been suggested that what he did was wrong.

I started training in Presas Arnis (combination of Kombatan/Modern Arnis) under Hock Hochheim in 94, having trained in Inosanto kali prior to that for about 2 years in a class and seminar instruction way back to 82. I trained under Hock and tested for Lakan Isa in 95 and Dalawa in 97. Hock introduced me to GM Remy in 95 and GM Ernesto in 96 and I attended many camps and seminars under each of them through 2002.

In 97 I tested in Modern Arnis for Lakan Isa before the board at the Dallas Summer camp. After that Hock distanced himself from the Modern Arnis crowd and I didn't have anyone to tell me it's time to test. I inquired about it in 99 but no one told me you should test, nor what I needed to do for Dalawa, so I sat on the exam boards and continue to train and teach on the side. Being in the martial arts since 81 I didn't feel it was right to ask to test, or to just pay a fee and test.

GM Ernesto promoted me to 2nd and signed my Dalawa certificate under Hock, I didn't want to approach GM Remy to test until someone recommended me. Either I fell through the cracks, or I just didn't assert myself to be tested for Dalawa at one of the camps, regardless GM Remy got sick and passed away. I went to a one or two more MA camps (after Remy passed away) and then started going to camps with other MA (as well as continuing training with Hock, GM Ernesto and other FMA groups) instructors where I met SM Dan and Datu Dieter. I started going to their camps and had them in for a seminar or two.

It was I think at the 2007 DAV Summer camp in Germany when I approached Dan about testing me in Modern Arnis. As a senior instructor I believed he could evaluate me honestly and fairly in Modern Arnis. The IMAF instructors hadn't seen me in years, Jeff Delaney wasn't on the main land any more, I wasn't studying Datu Tim's, Datu Worden's or Bruce Chui's curriculums (all of whom I had seen and attended their seminars) so in order to get further rank in Modern Arnis, what was an independent instructor to do?

I asked Dan if he would grade me and rank me as he saw fit. No money exchanged hands, nothing unethical about it. He had nothing to gain from it other than to help me out. Which he did. Dan knew where I stood on training issues, he'd watched me at 3 different camps, he actually spent more time with me and assessing my skill level than anyone of the three instructors who graded me on any one of the MA exam boards that I tested in front of. On top of this he watched both Don K. and I work out in the park and then worked sticks with us individually.

I laid out my training history here so you can see that I wasn't chasing rank nor only working out when it came around for test time at annual the Summer camps. No, but I did travel around to a whole slew of camps and seminars and got to bang sticks with a lot of people (not just my classmates); Dan knew all of this as well. I was active and supportive of Modern Arnis, but stuck at Lakan Isa officially. After 10 years I thought it was time to be reevaluated and I approached Dan.

Don K., I believe is involved with Dan in MA80, I am not. However Dan has been a great influence in my study of Modern Arnis and I highly recommend his books and training DVDs. His books are source of continual study for me and I use them in my classes.

In closing Dan did me a great favor by testing me, he ranked me as he saw fit and that is good enough for me. To suggest that what he did for me is unethical I believe is misguided.

Mark Lynn

 

[Morgan]

Dan

First off let me thank you for testing me in Modern Arnis.

For every one else since Dan did test me for an Lakan degree in Modern Arnis, I'll give you my perspective, because I think it has been suggested that what he did was wrong.

I started training in Presas Arnis (combination of Kombatan/Modern Arnis) under Hock Hochheim in 94, having trained in Inosanto kali prior to that for about 2 years in a class and seminar instruction way back to 82. I trained under Hock and tested for Lakan Isa in 95 and Dalawa in 97. Hock introduced me to GM Remy in 95 and GM Ernesto in 96 and I attended many camps and seminars under each of them through 2002.

In 97 I tested in Modern Arnis for Lakan Isa before the board at the Dallas Summer camp. After that Hock distanced himself from the Modern Arnis crowd and I didn't have anyone to tell me it's time to test. I inquired about it in 99 but no one told me you should test, nor what I needed to do for Dalawa, so I sat on the exam boards and continue to train and teach on the side. Being in the martial arts since 81 I didn't feel it was right to ask to test, or to just pay a fee and test.

GM Ernesto promoted me to 2nd and signed my Dalawa certificate under Hock, I didn't want to approach GM Remy to test until someone recommended me. Either I fell through the cracks, or I just didn't assert myself to be tested for Dalawa at one of the camps, regardless GM Remy got sick and passed away. I went to a one or two more MA camps (after Remy passed away) and then started going to camps with other MA (as well as continuing training with Hock, GM Ernesto and other FMA groups) instructors where I met SM Dan and Datu Dieter. I started going to their camps and had them in for a seminar or two.

It was I think at the 2007 DAV Summer camp in Germany when I approached Dan about testing me in Modern Arnis. As a senior instructor I believed he could evaluate me honestly and fairly in Modern Arnis. The IMAF instructors hadn't seen me in years, Jeff Delaney wasn't on the main land any more, I wasn't studying Datu Tim's, Datu Worden's or Bruce Chui's curriculums (all of whom I had seen and attended their seminars) so in order to get further rank in Modern Arnis, what was an independent instructor to do?

I asked Dan if he would grade me and rank me as he saw fit. No money exchanged hands, nothing unethical about it. He had nothing to gain from it other than to help me out. Which he did. Dan knew where I stood on training issues, he'd watched me at 3 different camps, he actually spent more time with me and assessing my skill level than anyone of the three instructors who graded me on any one of the MA exam boards that I tested in front of. On top of this he watched both Don K. and I work out in the park and then worked sticks with us individually.

I laid out my training history here so you can see that I wasn't chasing rank nor only working out when it came around for test time at annual the Summer camps. No, but I did travel around to a whole slew of camps and seminars and got to bang sticks with a lot of people (not just my classmates); Dan knew all of this as well. I was active and supportive of Modern Arnis, but stuck at Lakan Isa officially. After 10 years I thought it was time to be reevaluated and I approached Dan.

Don K., I believe is involved with Dan in MA80, I am not. However Dan has been a great influence in my study of Modern Arnis and I highly recommend his books and training DVDs. His books are source of continual study for me and I use them in my classes.

In closing Dan did me a great favor by testing me, he ranked me as he saw fit and that is good enough for me. To suggest that what he did for me is unethical I believe is misguided.

Mark Lynn

Dear Guro Lynn,

I am in complete agreement with you. There was nothing unethical about your being tested by Master Dan Anderson; even if some money had exchanged hands it would have been ethical because you did not have Modeern Arnis teacher for some time, you were not sneaking behind some teacher's back to get a promotion. In my opinion both you and Master Anderson acted in good faith within the art of Modern Arnis.

Good luck to you, sir, and I hope that I will be able to meet you at some point in the future.

Morgan

 

[Morgan]

When it comes to my group, I usually follow the curriculum set forth by the IMAF. While it is incumbent on me to teach the material in a fashion that they can grasp it and that they listen to me, the most important part of teaching, for me, is one on one training. For me, this is a chance to not only evaluate the student's technical understanding of the material but also run a diagnostic on their body movement, alignment, and structure. Yes, the same stuff that Dan talks about in his book. I absolutely believe in hands on instruction. That is key for me before I promote any of my students. I can spot problem areas pretty quickly and rectify them.

I have seen the results of instructors who elect to teach exclusively in a "group" format and without hands on, one on one training. I can tell you that that format does not work as well with the inclusion of one on one training.

For what it's worth.

Regards,
Brian

Guro Johns,

Your comments are worth quite a bit. Having a curriculum is definately an asset for both the instructor and the student. It lays out a training plan that lets everyone know where they are going and what follows what. The best long term instruction follows a plan.

The one on one thing is good and a necessary part of the training plan, but it has limitations and the critical limitation is that the instructor can not always see the small errors in foot, hip and arm placement. 2 on 1 training corrects for that limitation. By watching 2 students training with one another and then training with each student seperately the instructor has a fuller view and feel for what the students are doing.

Morgan

 

[Dieter]

Thumbs up for Mark.
He is very sincere in his studying and one of the most loyal followers of Modern Arnis, and not only of one association or only one Master.
He has trained with so many of the Modern Arnis teachers out there.
So he has a broad knowledge of the different Modern Arnis versions

Mark, I am glad you could do the grading with Dan.

Will you be in Buffalo?
Would be nice to see you there again.


Greetings

Datu Dieter

 

[stickarts]

Dan

First off let me thank you for testing me in Modern Arnis.

For every one else since Dan did test me for an Lakan degree in Modern Arnis, I'll give you my perspective, because I think it has been suggested that what he did was wrong.

I started training in Presas Arnis (combination of Kombatan/Modern Arnis) under Hock Hochheim in 94, having trained in Inosanto kali prior to that for about 2 years in a class and seminar instruction way back to 82. I trained under Hock and tested for Lakan Isa in 95 and Dalawa in 97. Hock introduced me to GM Remy in 95 and GM Ernesto in 96 and I attended many camps and seminars under each of them through 2002.

In 97 I tested in Modern Arnis for Lakan Isa before the board at the Dallas Summer camp. After that Hock distanced himself from the Modern Arnis crowd and I didn't have anyone to tell me it's time to test. I inquired about it in 99 but no one told me you should test, nor what I needed to do for Dalawa, so I sat on the exam boards and continue to train and teach on the side. Being in the martial arts since 81 I didn't feel it was right to ask to test, or to just pay a fee and test.

GM Ernesto promoted me to 2nd and signed my Dalawa certificate under Hock, I didn't want to approach GM Remy to test until someone recommended me. Either I fell through the cracks, or I just didn't assert myself to be tested for Dalawa at one of the camps, regardless GM Remy got sick and passed away. I went to a one or two more MA camps (after Remy passed away) and then started going to camps with other MA (as well as continuing training with Hock, GM Ernesto and other FMA groups) instructors where I met SM Dan and Datu Dieter. I started going to their camps and had them in for a seminar or two.

It was I think at the 2007 DAV Summer camp in Germany when I approached Dan about testing me in Modern Arnis. As a senior instructor I believed he could evaluate me honestly and fairly in Modern Arnis. The IMAF instructors hadn't seen me in years, Jeff Delaney wasn't on the main land any more, I wasn't studying Datu Tim's, Datu Worden's or Bruce Chui's curriculums (all of whom I had seen and attended their seminars) so in order to get further rank in Modern Arnis, what was an independent instructor to do?

I asked Dan if he would grade me and rank me as he saw fit. No money exchanged hands, nothing unethical about it. He had nothing to gain from it other than to help me out. Which he did. Dan knew where I stood on training issues, he'd watched me at 3 different camps, he actually spent more time with me and assessing my skill level than anyone of the three instructors who graded me on any one of the MA exam boards that I tested in front of. On top of this he watched both Don K. and I work out in the park and then worked sticks with us individually.

I laid out my training history here so you can see that I wasn't chasing rank nor only working out when it came around for test time at annual the Summer camps. No, but I did travel around to a whole slew of camps and seminars and got to bang sticks with a lot of people (not just my classmates); Dan knew all of this as well. I was active and supportive of Modern Arnis, but stuck at Lakan Isa officially. After 10 years I thought it was time to be reevaluated and I approached Dan.

Don K., I believe is involved with Dan in MA80, I am not. However Dan has been a great influence in my study of Modern Arnis and I highly recommend his books and training DVDs. His books are source of continual study for me and I use them in my classes.

In closing Dan did me a great favor by testing me, he ranked me as he saw fit and that is good enough for me. To suggest that what he did for me is unethical I believe is misguided.

Mark Lynn

Kudos to you for having the good ethics and the diligence to work with and be evaluated with a senior martial artist and modern arnis practicioner such as Dan Anderson. When it comes to ranking, there are always those out there that are jealous and i think we see clear evidence of that even here on the forum by some and that's such a shame. Those that behave in such a fashion are the ones that devalue the art. It was my honor also to work with Dan and get his perception on my strengths and weaknesses and advice on where to go from here. I have been evaluated by one of the best and for that i feel honored and thankful. Again, kudos to you!

 

[Guro Harold]

I can personally say that Mark's excellent reputation precedes him in my experience. I had no idea of his rank but I have only heard of his reputation and he has been at this a whole heck of a lot longer than I have.

Congratulations Mark and all the best to you!!!

As far as Rank and hands on issues with instructors, I don't bother with that too much.

People, even untrained can determine whose wallet has the initials BMF on it.

I believe a person's skill level and their student's skill level primarily speaks for itself.

 

[Mark Lynn]

Thumbs up for Mark.
He is very sincere in his studying and one of the most loyal followers of Modern Arnis, and not only of one association or only one Master.
He has trained with so many of the Modern Arnis teachers out there.
So he has a broad knowledge of the different Modern Arnis versions

Mark, I am glad you could do the grading with Dan.

Will you be in Buffalo?
Would be nice to see you there again.


Greetings

Datu Dieter

Datu Dieter

Thanks for the kind words, it was a pleasure and an honor to be at the Summer Camp for the DAV and to to sit in and observe your rank testing for the higher Lakan grades. In my mind that set the standard for group testing.

As to whether or not I'll be in Buffalo? I've been to Buffalo for the Symposium specifically to meet and train with you and Dan, went to Brevard to train with you guys, went to Germany to see and train with you guys. There ain't nothing but my wife who is going to keep me from Buffalo this year. I'm even trying to talk my students into going as well. Well that is a long shot but I plan to be there.

Take care Dieter and I look forward to seeing you again in July.

Mark

 

[MJS]

Kudos to you for having the good ethics and the diligence to work with and be evaluated with a senior martial artist and modern arnis practicioner such as Dan Anderson. When it comes to ranking, there are always those out there that are jealous and i think we see clear evidence of that even here on the forum by some and that's such a shame. Those that behave in such a fashion are the ones that devalue the art. It was my honor also to work with Dan and get his perception on my strengths and weaknesses and advice on where to go from here. I have been evaluated by one of the best and for that i feel honored and thankful. Again, kudos to you!

Jealous...well, speaking for myself only here, thats certainly not the case with me. I have a teacher that I train with on a regular basis, who ranks/promotes me as he sees fit. Of course, rank IMO, isn't necessarily an indication of skill. In other words, just because someone is wearing a 3rd dan black belt, while on the surface, it would seem that persons skill is there, in reality it may not be.

What does devalue the art, IMO, though, are those that do things for self benefit, and those that dont follow good ethics. I sent a PM to Mark, to go into a bit more detail, on my stance in this matter. But, while that message was between him and I, I will go into a bit more detail here. Personally, I dont have or see any issues with his situation. Look at what he was doing. He was going around, attending camps, training with others, continuing to gain knowledge, etc. IIRC, what I had said earlier, was that if someone wasn't doing those things, how can they, with a clear mind, ask someone for rank, and how can the teacher, with a clear mind, actually give it to them. So, sure, I could see him getting ranked.

 

[Mark Lynn]

I can personally say that Mark's excellent reputation precedes him in my experience. I had no idea of his rank but I have only heard of his reputation and he has been at this a whole heck of a lot longer than I have.

Congratulations Mark and all the best to you!!!

Thank You Harold for the kind words

What reputation?

I believe a person's skill level and their student's skill level primarily speaks for itself.

In this I totally agree. This here has been my main problem; as much as I have tried I have not gotten students, that is students who want to promote and grow in the FMA. I have plenty of workout buds who have trained with me over the years who know some about the FMAs but to actually take a student from beginner's rank through advanced rank (under Lakan) or even to Lakan I have not done this.

I have a few students now who have been with me around 6 months; another one has been with me in my TKD program for 3 years who currently train in my Presas Arnis class and in teaching them, I feel my education has really begun. GM Remy always said go and teach that is the best way to learn.

Without someone to pass the material I have learned onto what good is it?

Again Harold thanks for the kind words and are you going to Buffalo? If so hopefully I'll see you there.

Mark

 

[Mark Lynn]

Dear Guro Lynn,

I am in complete agreement with you. There was nothing unethical about your being tested by Master Dan Anderson; even if some money had exchanged hands it would have been ethical because you did not have Modern Arnis teacher for some time, you were not sneaking behind some teacher's back to get a promotion. In my opinion both you and Master Anderson acted in good faith within the art of Modern Arnis.

Good luck to you, sir, and I hope that I will be able to meet you at some point in the future.

Morgan

Morgan
I agree even if Dan would have charged me for the test it wouldn't have been unethical. The fact is I had tried to get tested, I asked after Remy passed away what I needed to do to be tested and the answers weren't real clear, it was real vague.

Anyway my experience in testing has been real strange.

 

[Dieter]

Hey Mark,

Datu Dieter

Thanks for the kind words, it was a pleasure and an honor to be at the Summer Camp for the DAV and to to sit in and observe your rank testing for the higher Lakan grades. In my mind that set the standard for group testing.

As to whether or not I'll be in Buffalo? I've been to Buffalo for the Symposium specifically to meet and train with you and Dan, went to Brevard to train with you guys, went to Germany to see and train with you guys.

Not to forget the Hall of Fame in San Antonio 2 years ago, where you helped me a lot.
I owe you something for your support there

There ain't nothing but my wife who is going to keep me from Buffalo this year. I'm even trying to talk my students into going as well. Well that is a long shot but I plan to be there.

Take care Dieter and I look forward to seeing you again in July.

Mark

That is very nice to hear.
I hope your wife lets you go....

Looking VERY much forward to see you there and then.
Seeing some of your students there would be awesome too.
How about Greg?

I am sure we will have a great time.
I come with one of my 4th Dans, Markus Kenkmann. A very good guy.

Dieter

 

[Mark Lynn]

Hi guys,

Training and gaining experience...yes, I train weekly with my teacher. IMO, this is the only way to get this...by training under someone. Of course, as I said in a few other posts, its one thing to say that you're training with someone, and another to say that you've trained with someone. IMO, if someone isn't training under someone, someone who can help improve knowledge, well.......that pretty much speaks for itself.

MJS
I totally agree here however there are times when sometimes you for whatever reason are left to train on your own. If you have put time in an art and it is something that you really enjoy doing it is a part of your life than even if you don't have an instructor (at a given time) you are going to still practice it work on it.

During my transition to my new Kenpo school, I trained weekly, both privately and in group classes, to learn how that school taught, to learn their material, even though it was very similar to what I did before. After having trained for 25yrs, my teacher fully new what I was capable of, however, instead of watching me for 1 day or a few hours, we did things the way he taught them.

Again I totally understand, but having to do things the way your new Kenpo school does things is only natural. In fact it is common in the martial arts, my karate instructor does it, even if a black belt in another system of karate you are a white belt in his. This is so that you learn to do things his way. I have students come into my classes and I'll keep them at their current rank (as long as it lines up with mine) until they learn to do things my way. This is for quality control.

IMO, if someone is inactive, meaning not training with anyone either in the state they reside in or out of state, especially when those sources are out there, I have a hard time seeing how someone could forget about ethics, and test or be tested, regardless of the experience of the tester. I'm not a part of Larry Tatums organization, so while I would gain something from his seminar, I couldn't, with a clear conscience, ask him to test me.

Because of Dan's answer where he names myself as someone who he tested, your comment here I agree and disagree with. I agree in principle of not asking someone who you have only done a seminar with to rank you in their organization. Not being a Kenpo stylist, I take it from your statement here that Larry Tatum has his own organization, but you are a Kenpo stylist from another organization or your a independent. I too believe that it is wrong and unethical to go to that instructor and say hey can you test me for such and such rank? Especially in their organization which you are not part of.

First off I didn't do this with Dan. I didn't ask to be tested for Lakan or even to be ranked in HIS organization MA80, this was never brought up nor suggested. What I approached him about was testing me in Modern Arnis of which he is a high Lakan rank and my senior. I asked him to test me in Modern Arnis and to assign what rank he thought I should be at.

I didn't try and go outside of any organization, I wasn't a member of any organization. I wasn't inactive in the art. I was teaching it, and going to great lengths to find the best instruction I could in the parent art (that was Modern Arnis). In fact it was 10 years since I had tested in Modern Arnis (under GM Remy), it wasn't ever about chasing rank, or trying to fill up a resume.

Let me fill you in on my testing experience in Modern Arnis.

My first summer camp in 95 I tested before the exam board, the guy who signed my certificate (TBH) I don't think even saw me, he sat at the other end of the room. Hock had introduced me to GM Remy on the first day and told him that I would be testing for Lakan Isa under Hock in his Presas Arnis (which Remy had suggested he create because he studied with both GM Ernesto and GM Remy) in September. Anyway back to the test, they passed me to Blue belt. In Sept. of 95 I tested for Lakan Isa under Hock in a 3-4 hour test that included everything (which Remy was supposed to be there but his flight was delayed) you can think of except flexible weapon disarming. The next day we had a seminar with Remy and then Remy and Hock left to go to a Sunday seminar and Hock showed GM Remy the tape of the test and Remy signed my certificate for Lakan Isa.

In 96 I went to the summer camp and was passed to Brown belt and my training partner was passed to Lakan (I'm pretty sure) which pissed me off. (On a side note, this guy was inactive and was a prior student from years ago, he also didn't at the time have a good grasp of the material on the test.) In 97 I was tested before the board and I got my certificate and it had Lakan Dalawa on it but it was whited out and Lakan Isa was put in. At that test there was some instructors who were promoted to Lakan Tatlo (who really didn't do Arnis, one taught Tae Kwon Do) and as the one told me we (Hock's group) “are the one's who do arnis” and I “got shafted because there was talk about promoting me to Lakan Dalawa but then it was brought out it was only my 3rd camp”, even after it was brought up that I was a Lakan Isa under Hock and had been training in the FMA for several years. (Now this is what I remember being told by the instructor who was promoted, I was not present to hear any of the discussion about me.)

Needless to say this left a bad feeling in my gut. In fact the night before I came close to blowing off my test completely because I was really put out by the whole testing thing the past two years, thankfully my training partner Arlie talked some sense into me. After hearing that I was passed over for Lakan Dalawa because of the amount of camps I had been to I was really ticked.

This being said though I later kind of understand this position. What Hock was teaching us was his version of Presas Arnis, we didn't do the anyos, we didn't do some of the same material I learned at the camps. I should not have believed I should be a Lakan in Modern Arnis under Remy when I hadn't trained in his system under him. Hock had different skill sets to learn and a different curriculum. Even with Remy and Ernesto signing my cert saying I was a Lakan Isa, I don't now see it as the same.



In fact this is one of the reason why I continued to study Modern Arnis and Kombatan Arnis under the GMs and not just under Hock's program. Because I saw that there was a difference. This is also the reason why I have sought out instruction from the major instructors in the Modern Arnis after GM Remy had passed away.



It seemed to me that when Remy was alive you paid for the test and it was based on your experience with camp participation tied in. The instructor of the student would also have a say and GM Remy had final say. Although he went with whatever the recommendation was. This is what I remember on the few boards I sat on after passing to Lakan. It wasn't based on experience or really skill but on attendance at an event as the main thing. I am not saying that skill had nothing to do with it, or that anyone promoted was a paper tiger, not by any means. However these where not the same thing as being in a small personalized test.



All of this to say that Dan in his short time of working with me had actually more contact and knew my skill more so than anyone who watched me on the early Modern Arnis tests. This is not to say that GM Remy didn't know me or watch me, that is not the case.

What would either of us gain, by having him test me? So I could say that I was tested and ranked one degree higher by Larry Tatum? So that Larry himself, could now say that he has a person that he promoted, on the east coast?

What did I have to gain from SM Dan Anderson testing me? Acknowledgment of my skill rank in Modern Arnis maybe? I dunno, I'm still the same old person that I was the day before he tested me. I'm still seeking out training experiences (like I hope to be in Buffalo), I'm teaching now, what I don't do is tout my rank, lord it over anyone, nor even boast about it. I don't wear different belts, different colored uniforms, I'm still the same old person I was before.

In all honesty Dan's promotion means more to me than my Modern Arnis Lakan Isa cert. In fact my certs from Hock mean more to me than my Modern Arnis cert. Because each of those I was being tested, Hock's was the most comprehensive exam I ever took in the FMAs hands down. Dan's was more like a senior and a junior student working with each other and senior saying OK you are ready for this rank......

Now Dan tested me in the fall of 2007 (or Spring of 2008) after we had worked together at the Symposium, Brevard, and at the DAV Summer Camp where he observed me and got to know me. I bring up this in a thread because I see where you kind of take Dan to task for saying that he promoted someone that was not directly under him. You infer that what I did in asking him to test me was somehow unethical.

For me it would have been more unethical if I were to approach my seniors in the other Modern Arnis organizations who haven't seen me in years and pay for an exam that someone may or may not actually see me perform in, just to get another stripe on my belt. Oh wait I don't wear stripes, oh I mean another cert. to hang on my already over crowded wall, you know from chasing all of that rank.

Mark

 

[Mark Lynn]

After re-reading my previous post, I don't want anyone to think I'm taking a swipe at any particular instructor, organization etc. etc. about the boards not watching the individuals testing. Nor should anyone believe I am saying that exams weren't legit or that people didn't earn their rank.

My issues were as I described, I remember my first exam and remember finding out that the person who was in front of me watching me wasn't the one who was assigned to watch me, he was at the other end of the room. I remember my training partner not knowing the material but being passed to Lakan Isa because of being a prior student (he told me as such) and working with him when he didn't know the material as we were testing. I remember being told stories of how instructor's hid out during the anyo part of the exam because they didn't know the material and so on.

Anytime I sat on an exam board I watched and graded who I was supposed to, I did my best to give them a legitimate grade, as I know other instructors who sat on those boards did as well. I remember seeing Datu Tim get up and demonstrate at the 99/2000 Summer Camp in Houston as he was preparing for his upcoming exam. ( I believe that was what he was doing, it had something to do with a test.) Point is that some snafus happen on large tests, everyone has different skill levels, everyone knows different techniques or possibly different names for the techniques and that can lead to be passed or failed or held back when they shouldn't be.

This is what I was trying to convey to MJS, in that I believe I had a more honest and fair test under Dan than I did under the exam boards at the Summer Camps. Dan knew my skill level better by working with me. The pro and cons of when to test individuals for Lakan rank, before a board or with an individual instructor is discussed on another thread. I wasn't trying to go there with my posts, but I was trying to bring out the point that neither Dan nor I were trying to do anything unethical and I was trying to supply background info on my experience to back up my position.

Thanks
Mark

 

[Mark Lynn]

Dieter

Hey Mark,
Not to forget the Hall of Fame in San Antonio 2 years ago, where you helped me a lot.
I owe you something for your support there

The honor was mine. I really appreciated you working with me at the hotel and for you giving a good mini seminar for my friends at the TKD association and the one for my students. They really enjoyed it.

You owe me nothing, but thanks for the thought.

That is very nice to hear.
I hope your wife lets you go....

Yeah so do I.

Looking VERY much forward to see you there and then.
Seeing some of your students there would be awesome too.
How about Greg?

Greg is going to be at an exam next week for my TKD students and for my Arnis students. I have 3 arnis students testing for Green belt in my curriculum. I had planned to ask him if he wanted to go to Buffalo then. I have mentioned it to my other students but there are some complications, plus they are also planning on traveling to see Bruce Chui (who they trained with before), but we will see.

I am sure we will have a great time.
I come with one of my 4th Dans, Markus Kenkmann. A very good guy.

Dieter

I'm looking forward to it,

Hey speaking of owing me (yeah I know you you don't owe me anything but...?) maybe Markus and I could work together some on your tapi tapi material?

Take care
Mark

 

[Dieter]

Hi Mark,

Dieter

The honor was mine. I really appreciated you working with me at the hotel and for you giving a good mini seminar for my friends at the TKD association and the one for my students. They really enjoyed it.

Nice to hear.

You owe me nothing, but thanks for the thought.

Well, still, would you accept a beer in Buffalo?

Greg is going to be at an exam next week for my TKD students and for my Arnis students. I have 3 arnis students testing for Green belt in my curriculum. I had planned to ask him if he wanted to go to Buffalo then.

Good. Would be nice to see him again as well.

I have mentioned it to my other students but there are some complications, plus they are also planning on traveling to see Bruce Chui (who they trained with before), but we will see.

Sure. I know how hadr it is to get the students there.

Hey speaking of owing me (yeah I know you you don't owe me anything but...?) maybe Markus and I could work together some on your tapi tapi material?

This will be no question at all.
I will teach at least 2 Tapi lessons and sure we can do that for you.

Greetings


Dieter

 

[Mark Lynn]

Dieter

Thanks! OK I'll take a beer if I get to buy you and Markus one.

Mark

 

[Mark Lynn]

MJS

I don't get on martial talk that much and saw and read your PM, I replied but my mailbox was full, so I don't think it was sent. I tried to remove some PM's (they dated back to 2004 with the newest one being 2005) but I couldn't get back to the one I wanted to send you.

Just to let you know (Since I can't figure out how to even send you a PM) there are no problems. Everything is good.

Thanks for the PM.

Mark

 

[MJS]

MJS
I totally agree here however there are times when sometimes you for whatever reason are left to train on your own. If you have put time in an art and it is something that you really enjoy doing it is a part of your life than even if you don't have an instructor (at a given time) you are going to still practice it work on it.

Hey Mark, I'll do my best to answer your questions. Yes, I agree, and thats what I did. I trained on my own as well as with others, outside of the school. I did however, seek out a new teacher and school to train under.

Again I totally understand, but having to do things the way your new Kenpo school does things is only natural. In fact it is common in the martial arts, my karate instructor does it, even if a black belt in another system of karate you are a white belt in his. This is so that you learn to do things his way. I have students come into my classes and I'll keep them at their current rank (as long as it lines up with mine) until they learn to do things my way. This is for quality control.

Agreed, but I think you may've misunderstood. Of course you're going to be doing things the way your teacher does them. What I was saying was, if you transition to a new teacher, it only makes sense to me anyways, to spend more than a day, working with them, before getting ranked by them. I spent more than that, working with my teacher, learning the system that was taught at the school, before he tested me, so I'd be ranked a) under him and b) ranked in the school.

Because of Dan's answer where he names myself as someone who he tested, your comment here I agree and disagree with. I agree in principle of not asking someone who you have only done a seminar with to rank you in their organization. Not being a Kenpo stylist, I take it from your statement here that Larry Tatum has his own organization, but you are a Kenpo stylist from another organization or your a independent. I too believe that it is wrong and unethical to go to that instructor and say hey can you test me for such and such rank? Especially in their organization which you are not part of.

That is correct. Larry Tatum has his own org. LTKKA. He teaches Parker Kenpo. I was doing the Parker system, but since then, have transitioned to a Tracy school, however, we are not affiliated with the Tracy Bros. org., as the material we teach, while it is Tracy Kenpo, we dont have the huge 40 tech/belt list. I used Larry simply as an example. Now, were I part of a school that was under Larrys org, and I was up for a rank, and if Larry was going to be at a seminar, and I asked my teacher if I could test under him, sure, I see no issues with that.

First off I didn't do this with Dan. I didn't ask to be tested for Lakan or even to be ranked in HIS organization MA80, this was never brought up nor suggested. What I approached him about was testing me in Modern Arnis of which he is a high Lakan rank and my senior. I asked him to test me in Modern Arnis and to assign what rank he thought I should be at.

I didn't try and go outside of any organization, I wasn't a member of any organization. I wasn't inactive in the art. I was teaching it, and going to great lengths to find the best instruction I could in the parent art (that was Modern Arnis). In fact it was 10 years since I had tested in Modern Arnis (under GM Remy), it wasn't ever about chasing rank, or trying to fill up a resume.

Let me fill you in on my testing experience in Modern Arnis.

My first summer camp in 95 I tested before the exam board, the guy who signed my certificate (TBH) I don't think even saw me, he sat at the other end of the room. Hock had introduced me to GM Remy on the first day and told him that I would be testing for Lakan Isa under Hock in his Presas Arnis (which Remy had suggested he create because he studied with both GM Ernesto and GM Remy) in September. Anyway back to the test, they passed me to Blue belt. In Sept. of 95 I tested for Lakan Isa under Hock in a 3-4 hour test that included everything (which Remy was supposed to be there but his flight was delayed) you can think of except flexible weapon disarming. The next day we had a seminar with Remy and then Remy and Hock left to go to a Sunday seminar and Hock showed GM Remy the tape of the test and Remy signed my certificate for Lakan Isa.

In 96 I went to the summer camp and was passed to Brown belt and my training partner was passed to Lakan (I'm pretty sure) which pissed me off. (On a side note, this guy was inactive and was a prior student from years ago, he also didn't at the time have a good grasp of the material on the test.) In 97 I was tested before the board and I got my certificate and it had Lakan Dalawa on it but it was whited out and Lakan Isa was put in. At that test there was some instructors who were promoted to Lakan Tatlo (who really didn't do Arnis, one taught Tae Kwon Do) and as the one told me we (Hock's group) “are the one's who do arnis” and I “got shafted because there was talk about promoting me to Lakan Dalawa but then it was brought out it was only my 3rd camp”, even after it was brought up that I was a Lakan Isa under Hock and had been training in the FMA for several years. (Now this is what I remember being told by the instructor who was promoted, I was not present to hear any of the discussion about me.)

Needless to say this left a bad feeling in my gut. In fact the night before I came close to blowing off my test completely because I was really put out by the whole testing thing the past two years, thankfully my training partner Arlie talked some sense into me. After hearing that I was passed over for Lakan Dalawa because of the amount of camps I had been to I was really ticked.

This being said though I later kind of understand this position. What Hock was teaching us was his version of Presas Arnis, we didn't do the anyos, we didn't do some of the same material I learned at the camps. I should not have believed I should be a Lakan in Modern Arnis under Remy when I hadn't trained in his system under him. Hock had different skill sets to learn and a different curriculum. Even with Remy and Ernesto signing my cert saying I was a Lakan Isa, I don't now see it as the same.



In fact this is one of the reason why I continued to study Modern Arnis and Kombatan Arnis under the GMs and not just under Hock's program. Because I saw that there was a difference. This is also the reason why I have sought out instruction from the major instructors in the Modern Arnis after GM Remy had passed away.



It seemed to me that when Remy was alive you paid for the test and it was based on your experience with camp participation tied in. The instructor of the student would also have a say and GM Remy had final say. Although he went with whatever the recommendation was. This is what I remember on the few boards I sat on after passing to Lakan. It wasn't based on experience or really skill but on attendance at an event as the main thing. I am not saying that skill had nothing to do with it, or that anyone promoted was a paper tiger, not by any means. However these where not the same thing as being in a small personalized test.



All of this to say that Dan in his short time of working with me had actually more contact and knew my skill more so than anyone who watched me on the early Modern Arnis tests. This is not to say that GM Remy didn't know me or watch me, that is not the case.

I sent you a PM, but I'll comment here as well. In no way, shape or form, was I hinting or suggesting that you did anything wrong. In fact, as I said, I see nothing wrong with what you did. Why? Because you were active. You were going out there, training, etc. If someone has access to camps, seminars, people of a higher rank to train with/under, etc., and they choose not to, but somehow feel they're worthy of rank, that is what I feel is wrong.

What did I have to gain from SM Dan Anderson testing me? Acknowledgment of my skill rank in Modern Arnis maybe? I dunno, I'm still the same old person that I was the day before he tested me. I'm still seeking out training experiences (like I hope to be in Buffalo), I'm teaching now, what I don't do is tout my rank, lord it over anyone, nor even boast about it. I don't wear different belts, different colored uniforms, I'm still the same old person I was before.

In all honesty Dan's promotion means more to me than my Modern Arnis Lakan Isa cert. In fact my certs from Hock mean more to me than my Modern Arnis cert. Because each of those I was being tested, Hock's was the most comprehensive exam I ever took in the FMAs hands down. Dan's was more like a senior and a junior student working with each other and senior saying OK you are ready for this rank......

Now Dan tested me in the fall of 2007 (or Spring of 2008) after we had worked together at the Symposium, Brevard, and at the DAV Summer Camp where he observed me and got to know me. I bring up this in a thread because I see where you kind of take Dan to task for saying that he promoted someone that was not directly under him. You infer that what I did in asking him to test me was somehow unethical.

For me it would have been more unethical if I were to approach my seniors in the other Modern Arnis organizations who haven't seen me in years and pay for an exam that someone may or may not actually see me perform in, just to get another stripe on my belt. Oh wait I don't wear stripes, oh I mean another cert. to hang on my already over crowded wall, you know from chasing all of that rank.

Mark

Agreed, and again, it'd be the same if I went to 1 Tatum seminar and at the next one, asked him to promote me. If I am reading your posts correctly, you have trained quite a bit and often with Dan and others. Am I correct in this assumption? That being said, I see nothing wrong with you asking for the promo. as I said above.